Forms and their true value in the martial arts

[Balrog]

Forms, more than anything, are about teaching discipline, control, focus, etc. They are a tool to help the student learn about balance, timing, correct execution of technique, etc. IMNSHO, I think that they are a valuable training tool.

 

[Kframe]

What you're looking at (Kata Maki, final kata in the Shoden Gata of Koto Ryu Koppojutsu) is a demonstration form of it, not a training form. It's broken down into the sequence in order for all the steps to be seen, and is the "learning the parts" section I referred to in my post in your other thread. Once you've done that, you move onto training it against a more realistic form of the attack.. where the punches are retracted, as they would be, as well as other aspects. With this particular kata, you should be working on the timing and tai sabaki (body movement) which enables you to "catch" the second punch by wrapping your arm over it just before it reaches full extension (you do that, not with super-fast reflexes, but by dictating the attack coming towards you with your first movement away... but that's more for a teacher to explain to you). Ideally, you'll actually get the arm as it's then retracting, which gives you a Musha Dori armlock (bending and lifting the elbow, which is what bends the attacker backwards, allowing the takedown), rather than a straight arm-bar (Muso Dori), which happens when you don't get the timing right.

Of course, it's not uncommon to see the old "arm sticking out" thing... and it's a case of people not moving past the "learn the basic mechanics" section. There are other ideas, though... But, importantly, as I said in the other thread, kata should be done as if a real fight. Both partners should be intending to get away safely in order to continue to attack/defend (depending on the role and kata). An example is something I was taking my guys through last night... it was a kata called Kasa Harai, from a line of Shinden Fudo Ryu. In this kata, you and the opponent hold each other in a kind of clinch, and you step back, pulling them forwards. The response from the opponent is to then try to move back again, which opens up one of their arms to an attack... which is to catch it with both arms in an armbar. From there, you attack the opponent's legs, change your grip, and take them down. When we first went through it, it was very much a to b to c to d... but, once that's understood, the pressure is upped. The timing works by seizing their arm as they try to escape/resist against your initial pull... if you leave it too late, you can't catch the arm, as they can defend it. Throughout, the attacker should be aiming to stay in balance, as you (the defender) attack their legs to disrupt it, and so on. A few minutes of that, and there was a fair amount of sweat in the room. That's the way kata should be trained. The "demonstration" version is not the "training" version, even though the actions are the same.

So they were just in demo mode. OK that makes sense. Id love to see that kata done at full speed. Would be hilarious.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Ouch! ​What was that for?

Well we do have our own language - Aussie slang, and our own currency - the carton.

 

[Chris Parker]

So they were just in demo mode. OK that makes sense. Id love to see that kata done at full speed. Would be hilarious.

Hmm... "hilarious"? Perhaps you're using that word in a way I'm not familiar (what with my Australian/Japanese terminology and all...) when I do that one at closer to proper (application) speed, it's dangerous. It's quite easy to break an elbow or dislocate a shoulder the way this is done....

 

[Kframe]

Hmm... "hilarious"? Perhaps you're using that word in a way I'm not familiar (what with my Australian/Japanese terminology and all...) when I do that one at closer to proper (application) speed, it's dangerous. It's quite easy to break an elbow or dislocate a shoulder the way this is done....

Actually I was using the word in a different way. My full expression is typically "would be hilariously awesome" or something to that effect. If I see something I like, I tend to call it hilariously awesome.. Don't mind my stupid abuse of the English language. That elbow lock I have done in a different context. My former karate influenced mma coach had me doing that against Shirt grabs, though with a different take down.

 

[Hyoho]

None of works without creative visualisation. Initially working in pairs to understand the mechanics or mirrors will help. Watch a senior on his own and you will see his opponent.

 

[chinto]

Kata teaches you how to fight in Okinawan karate.


when I spar I do indeed use the same stances and things as in kata. some do not, as turning sideways allows you to take advantage of some of the sparring rules, but in a real fight could lead you to expose some very dangerous targets to easy attack.

If your system uses kata, its there to teach you concepts, doctrin, and techniques for when your LIFE ITSELF is on the line. In a real fight there are no refs and there are no rules, the lighting usually sucks, and often there or 2 or 3 of them. Kata does indeed teach you to deal with the stress, and the techniques to stay alive in that situation!

 

[Hyoho]

Kata teaches you how to fight in Okinawan karate.


when I spar I do indeed use the same stances and things as in kata. some do not, as turning sideways allows you to take advantage of some of the sparring rules, but in a real fight could lead you to expose some very dangerous targets to easy attack.

If your system uses kata, its there to teach you concepts, doctrin, and techniques for when your LIFE ITSELF is on the line. In a real fight there are no refs and there are no rules, the lighting usually sucks, and often there or 2 or 3 of them. Kata does indeed teach you to deal with the stress, and the techniques to stay alive in that situation!

If you don't do enough fundamentals it won't work as a natural response. If its not natural your doing something else. A given response has to come naturally. Very little thought behind it. Natural ability also comes with relaxation in aggression rather than tension. I vividly remembered being pushed until I no longer had the strength to do anything. The breath gave out and with it kiai. That's when I did my best work. Kata means form, waza a tried and tested technique. Therefore there can be kata within waza. A made up kata is just that.