Value of upper level forms?

[Leam_Hall]

I like doing forms, the habit reminds me of success and the familiar is fun. In the past several years I've begun to focus on self-defense and am no longer sure how much value traditional forms have in that context. If you're beginning, then doing forms is a great way to learn and integrate the body mechanics. If you're a senior student or black belt, the same forms can be done even better; relaxing and breathing, then economical movement with even greater force. But from a martial value, a lot of techniques aren't really useful.

Besides body mechanics and exercise, how can forms build self-defense skills?

 

[skribs]

Personally, I don't think they can. And that's okay.

I find them to be therapeutic, both physically and mentally. But I also think there's a diminishing returns, where you're just memorizing a new order of stuff instead of learning new things.

 

[isshinryuronin]

If you're beginning, then doing forms is a great way to learn and integrate the body mechanics. If you're a senior student or black belt, the same forms can be done even better; relaxing and breathing, then economical movement with even greater force.

You've well described the general benefits of kata which will improve whatever self-defense techniques you do.

But from a martial value, a lot of techniques aren't really useful.

Now, talking about specific techniques and movements, their usefulness depends on understanding the bunkai/ function/application. Many/most of the combos in traditional kata (Okinawan, and by extension Japanese and Korean) are grab releases with counters and takedowns. Whether these have been retained over the past century by the style is another matter. Competition and exercise emphasis have minimized the importance/effectiveness of application.

The great majority of kata moves do have martial value, IF you view kata martially, with an offensive and aggressive (and creative) mindset. Viewing kata as an exercise or a traditional "dance" will cause a bias in the way you interpret it. While kata is taught in a particular pattern and with each move travelling in a prescribed fashion, it is NOT meant to be actually restricted to these limitations. (This is the real secret of kata.)

Stepping on an angle other than what is taught, knowing many moves that seem to be blocks are strikes, doing two consecutive moves simultaneously, varying the target a bit, and looking at a progression of moves like "abc-de-figh" as "abcdef-gh" instead can sometimes entirely change the meaning of the movement series. These things open new avenues of effective application. This is how kata was originally designed - as a template with much built-in flexibility to be explored.

Thousands of repetitive basic drills, two-man drills, heavy bag work, and sparring are essential in developing karate martial skills. But kata, with both its general and specific attributes, can be a valuable martial resource if one has the knowledge and understanding to utilize it to its full potential.

 

[wab25]

Once you pass your basic math class (add, subtract, multiply and divide), why do I need to go to the higher level math classes, like algebra, calculus, trigonometry, linear algebra??? They are all just doing addition, subtraction and division, just in different patterns. Why learn new patterns and new uses? You already know addition, subtraction, multiplication and division, memorizing more patterns for using those tools seems pretty useless.....

Technically, all you really need to learn is addition.... after all, that is the only math operation a computer can do.....

 

[Prince_Alarming]

In all seriousness, I think the great strength of the kata as a training tool is that they encourage you to do things that wouldn't have occurred to you personally. Most other martial arts disciplines involve a certain amount of individualism in applying their principles, sure, but the kata do offer a classical education in principles of movement, offence and defence, that it would be difficult or impossible to acquire just by playing with weapons until one of you cries uncle.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

I feel compelled to admit at this point that I have never actually cried 'uncle' in a martial arts class. Apart from when I was sparring with my uncle.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In the past several years I've begun to focus on self-defense and am no longer sure how much value traditional forms have in that context.

Now your "real martial arts training begins" For most systems the forms aren't going to be fully understood until you learn application. When I say application, I'm not talking about application drill. I'm talking about sparring and learning how to apply the technique to someone outside your system. Forms are born from application. Once you learn application then the form will make sense.