Traditional MA's flowery impractical techniques

[JowGaWolf]

I will admit, I do want to learn this though....with all that flowery jenk poured on thick. Mostly because it looks cool as heck with the staff. I'd probably want to do some flowery broadsword too....not even joking. The Kung-Fu guy I talked to did say that I'd need to learn forms because it's the basis of all 'dis that translates to weapons.

This brings me back to my childhood days, where we would mimick Run Run Shaw movies.

Your post reminds me that Flowery may mean 2 things.
1. useless Martial movement. Meaning it doesn't have an attack or defense purpose such as a taunt.
2. exaggerated movement - Where a practical technique has been exaggerated in order to give it more of a performance effect.

In terms of #2. I actually suck at it. If I take longer than normal pauses then my mind wanders. Technically it means I need to practice my forms more.

For example, Real techniques done in a way that enhances the performance look

Another example, Real techniques but not the ones you would use would use in a real knife fight.

Some times the "Flowery" definition doesn't always fit as being useless or being a fake technique. Jow Ga isn't the only one that does stuff like this,

 

[Hanzou]

It would probably be better to highlight the flowery parts of a practical martial arts. It would be more meaningful. For example. This is a Jow Ga staff form. The downward flicking of the hand is flowery. It has no practical Martial Arts use. It is said to be a taunt. Everything else is practical.

Under what circumstance could you consider that "practical"? Are you guys actually ever sparring with staffs, or are you just doing forms? If its the latter, I can assure you that if you ever needed to pick up a broom or a mop handle to defend yourself, you wouldn't know what to do.

If you're doing stuff like this:

That's something else entirely.

Oh, and yeah, I love that movie.

 

[FriedRice]

Another example, Real techniques but not the ones you would use would use in a real knife fight.

[/MEDIA]

For all the **** I've been saying about TMA, I really do want to train this at this point in my MA journey. And it's all due to Larping. It really is fun to twirl stuff and look cool in the mirror. And I can swing foam weapons, full blasts at dudes to test out the effectiveness.

Jow Ga seems to be more functional and less flowery (from those 2 vids)....because I'm actually liking the more flowery styles like Shaolin Hung Fut for my weapons. Only question is, do I really want to pay like $150/month for this training when I haven't paid for BJJ/MT in like 7 years?

 

[FriedRice]

I'm 41.

Cardio - that might be a challenge on top of tkd, kickboxing, conditioning and practice at home and having a relatively physically demanding job...

Roughness - if it's everyone out to hurt each other then honestly it sounds like too much hassle, if nothing else I'm self employed so if I can't go to work I don't get paid.


That said, I recommend you add a qualifier when you say "cardio level + roughness of MMA gyms" - I'm pretty sure I could go to an MMA gym near me and not have much trouble keeping up with their "family session, all welcome"...

Your assumption that all MMA gyms are hardcore is as bad as someone saying tkd doesn't have any punches.

Wow, relax before you pop a blood vessel. I'm usually just joking around also. I was obviously speaking in general terms....and you happen to be that older guy who says he's in shape and somehow found some MMA gym with said, "family session" that dumbs it down for mommy & daddy.

That still doesn't negate the fact that there are rarely any long term, old people in Muay Thai and MMA classes, exceeding that free trial period or 10 classes groupon. Maybe some in BJJ, but usually they're brown and black belts, who knows how to conserve energy. And this is 10+ years at the same gym (+ training at many other gyms).....and my home gym is 20,000 sq/ft, 2 full locker rooms, 50+ half lockers, 5 showers, 6 toilets, separate enclosed striking room, separate BJJ mat, cage, boxing ring, 30+ space parking lot, laundry room....probably the biggest gym in this metropolitan area.

 

[pdg]

somehow found some MMA gym with said, "family session" that dumbs it down for mommy & daddy

Somehow found?

Are you actually serious?

I put my town and mma into Google, that was the result.

And I've just tried 4 surrounding towns, all the mma places I found offer family sessions.

I know you want to be the big hard man who does things nobody over the age of 30 is capable of, but when you grow up and hopefully get over yourself you'll realise...

 

[FriedRice]

Somehow found?

Are you actually serious?

I put my town and mma into Google, that was the result.

And I've just tried 4 surrounding towns, all the mma places I found offer family sessions.

I know you want to be the big hard man who does things nobody over the age of 30 is capable of, but when you grow up and hopefully get over yourself you'll realise...

Dayuuuummmmm.....I heard 'dat! You def. have what it takes to hang with these babes:

 

[pdg]

Dayuuuummmmm.....I heard 'dat! You def. have what it takes to hang with these babes:

Going by the belt colours, most of them outrank me in kickboxing...

 

[Steve]

Inspired by Bullsherdog.

Words you never thought you'd see....

We hear a lot about TMA being full.of impractical, flowery, unrealistic and straight BS techniques and methods.

For this thread I'd like to try to list them and the problems with them and yes, if anyone can actually use said bs techniques the defence of them would also be good.

I think this is a very interesting idea, but would approach it slightly differently. I think an objective evaluation of skills is a really good idea. But assessing skills is different than assessing techniques.

So, in this exercise, to evaluate whether they are impractical or unrealistic (or straight BS), you need to look at the skills that they are intended to build, and first evaluate whether they build the intended skill, and then evaluate whether that skill is practical or realistic.

For example, shrimping is a technique in BJJ. It looks funny, but is an essential skill used to create space between you and a fatso who is on top of you crushing your diaphragm. Does the training model build this skill? Yes. We can see it in isolation, in the drills, and we can also see it in application, when all manner of people apply this technique to create space, move a fatso who is on top of them, and improve their position. And now that we can see the skills in application, we can evaluate their practicality. I'd say shrimping is a very practical skill.

What about inverted or upside down guard? Does the training build the skill? Yes. We can see it in isolation in training, and we can also see it in application. Is it practical for self defense? Errr.... maybe not. The key, though, is that we can evaluate the practicality because people can actually do it "for real." We can see it in action and then evaluate the pros and cons.

This is where we things get dicey and where I get on my bandwagon. You can't even get to the point of evaluating techniques in many programs, because the styles eschew any kind of application. Or said in a less negative way, if I look at a video of techniques taught in, say, the Wushu video above, I can only objectively evaluate what I am seeing. I see people who are athletic, well coordinated, and well trained. They can demonstrate the bejeesus out of those things. So, does the training build fighting skill? Well, I don't know. Skills, for sure, as you don't perform the kinds of acrobatic demonstrations that they do without a lot of skill. But fighting skill? I don't see any fighting in these demonstrations.

In the end, training is both a micro and a macro issue. We can evaluate a individual's contribution to training through their individual success or failure. But we can only evaluate training models on a large scale, looking at larger trends and making decisions about what works and what doesn't on the basis of concrete results. And we see that styles where people compete produce reliable results (whether they are practical for another application or not).

 

[WaterGal]

Wow, relax before you pop a blood vessel. I'm usually just joking around also. I was obviously speaking in general terms....and you happen to be that older guy who says he's in shape and somehow found some MMA gym with said, "family session" that dumbs it down for mommy & daddy.

That still doesn't negate the fact that there are rarely any long term, old people in Muay Thai and MMA classes, exceeding that free trial period or 10 classes groupon. Maybe some in BJJ, but usually they're brown and black belts, who knows how to conserve energy. And this is 10+ years at the same gym (+ training at many other gyms).....and my home gym is 20,000 sq/ft, 2 full locker rooms, 50+ half lockers, 5 showers, 6 toilets, separate enclosed striking room, separate BJJ mat, cage, boxing ring, 30+ space parking lot, laundry room....probably the biggest gym in this metropolitan area.

I've done BJJ at a couple places, and in my 30s was usually one of the younger adult white belts in class. I'd guess the median age was around 40. No "family sessions", but classes aimed at teaching regular people how to defend themselves. They weren't 20,000 sqft gyms with all that fancy stuff, though. I guess big high-end BJJ schools only attract students who are 25 and trying to be pro fighters, lol.

 

[dvcochran]

It wasn't supposed to come across as 'judgemental' as it appears upon re-reading...

Is your one-step as I assume - one attack, one defence?

Does the defender do a follow up counter attack, and if so is that pulled or also full speed / power?

We have 1, 2 & 3 step practice, mixing up the attacks. It is full speed/power. That said, if I know I am about to punch you in the face I am going to pull it. The midsection is fair game.

 

[FriedRice]

I've done BJJ at a couple places, and in my 30s was usually one of the younger adult white belts in class. I'd guess the median age was around 40. No "family sessions", but classes aimed at teaching regular people how to defend themselves. They weren't 20,000 sqft gyms with all that fancy stuff, though. I guess big high-end BJJ schools only attract students who are 25 and trying to be pro fighters, lol.

BJJ can be very low in cardio, that's why I said except BJJ. And the big schools attract all types.

 

[FriedRice]

Going by the belt colours, most of them outrank me in kickboxing...

Ok, then I guess you can't hang with them then old timer.

 

[JR 137]

In my system/organization, I’m not a fan of the backfist/uraken nor the nukite/spear hand strikes. I’d rather throw a punch instead. IMO a punch would be so much harder and more effective than a backfist 99% of the time.

As for spear hand, if I conditioned my hands for it, sure. But I’m not willing to do all that for a technique that I’d hardly use for real.

I don’t think I’ve ever thought about either of those in sparring. At least not without forcing myself to try it.

 

[pdg]

In my system/organization, I’m not a fan of the backfist/uraken nor the nukite/spear hand strikes. I’d rather throw a punch instead. IMO a punch would be so much harder and more effective than a backfist 99% of the time.

As for spear hand, if I conditioned my hands for it, sure. But I’m not willing to do all that for a technique that I’d hardly use for real.

I don’t think I’ve ever thought about either of those in sparring. At least not without forcing myself to try it.

I don't know how the backfist is trained for you, but it can be very effective - especially if it's a 'rare' technique.

Well worthwhile imo and (with practice) easily as hard as a straight punch.

There's a few ways I use it sparring - let me know if you'd like a poor description

Spearhand, not so much - it can work against something soft without excessive conditioning (with fingers slightly bent - dead straight is asking for trouble) but I wouldn't call it high value.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Going by the belt colours, most of them outrank me in kickboxing...

BJJ can be very low in cardio, that's why I said except BJJ. And the big schools attract all types.

as someone who has practiced BJJ, how the hell is it low cardio??? 5 3 minute rounds at the end of class absolutely wipes me out!

 

[JR 137]

as someone who has practiced BJJ, how the hell is it low cardio??? 5 3 minute rounds at the end of class absolutely wipes me out!

I’ve watched a bunch of it in videos (yeah, I’m that guy right now ). It doesn’t look much different in that regard than wrestling, which I did quite a bit of.

No idea how that would be low cardio, except for an instance where you’ve got a guy who’s got a ton of experience paired up with a low rank, and he’s taking it really easy on him. But that high rank most likely has a really good cardio base from working with higher ranks regularly and knows how to pace himself, especially against newbies without that base.

 

[now disabled]

(or they may have intentionally obfuscated it to make sure their students couldn't open a competing school or whatever)

That was not at all uncommon

Even in the 20th cent there were still masters not teaching all to everyone and yes it was more than likely that it was done for the reason you state

 

[JowGaWolf]

Under what circumstance could you consider that "practical"? Are you guys actually ever sparring with staffs, or are you just doing forms? If its the latter, I can assure you that if you ever needed to pick up a broom or a mop handle to defend yourself, you wouldn't know what to do.

The form itself is practical except the part where the taught is. That would be the flowery part of the form. Everything else is usable. Where I live people walk with staffs and "half staffs" when they walk for exercise. It's not uncommon to see. They carry it for protection not against humans but also against animals. Animals like rabid foxes and wandering dogs is not uncommon hear has well. In terms of a wandering dog it is excellent for keeping a dog at bay or hitting it. It's the one weapon people can freely walk with and not worry about being harassed by law enforcement.

Some of those techniques in that Jow Ga staff video aren't just striking techniques. Some of the techniques prevent the attacker from taking your staff away from you.
The broom scenario happens more than what people think and unfortunately many don't know how to fight back effectively with a stick, but some do. For me. even though I haven't learned how to work the staff like I work my open hand techniques, the little that I do know is more than enough to deal some real pain. Any attacker who attacks me while I have a staff, broom, mop is in for a big surprise.

 

[FriedRice]

as someone who has practiced BJJ, how the hell is it low cardio??? 5 3 minute rounds at the end of class absolutely wipes me out!

Relax babe, I clearly said that "BJJ can be very low in cardio" and you even quoted it.

I even stated in another post as to how it could be. And 3 minute rounds are usually not standard, it's usually 6-7 minute rounds for the last 30 minutes of a 90 minute class. And our pure Jitsu guys still suffer & can't take the cardio load when they tryout our Muay Thai class. Your gym may be on the low cardio side.

 

[FriedRice]

The form itself is practical except the part where the taught is. That would be the flowery part of the form. Everything else is usable. Where I live people walk with staffs and "half staffs" when they walk for exercise. It's not uncommon to see. They carry it for protection not against humans but also against animals. Animals like rabid foxes and wandering dogs is not uncommon hear has well. In terms of a wandering dog it is excellent for keeping a dog at bay or hitting it. It's the one weapon people can freely walk with and not worry about being harassed by law enforcement.

Some of those techniques in that Jow Ga staff video aren't just striking techniques. Some of the techniques prevent the attacker from taking your staff away from you.
The broom scenario happens more than what people think and unfortunately many don't know how to fight back effectively with a stick, but some do. For me. even though I haven't learned how to work the staff like I work my open hand techniques, the little that I do know is more than enough to deal some real pain. Any attacker who attacks me while I have a staff, broom, mop is in for a big surprise.

The title of the 1st video really doesn't help the cause of Aikido as an effective MA much though, haha. Lucky for them, they were going up against goofballs who are scared of broom sticks. I would think that a big *** machete behind the counter would be a much better deterrent (and probably legal).

A Kung-Fu sifu said something to me that made a lot of sense when I went there to get some info on weapons training......that doing forms is very effective with a blade because you just need to touch with it and it can do massive damage.....and the flowery forms can deal out multiple slashes at crazy speed & angles.

Older dudes in inner cities carry those bad ***, Black Thorn walking sticks, that are clearly weapons.....to ward off little punks running around looking for easy targets. I prefer a cane that looks like a regular, old guy's cane though....so that I can't be accused of purposefully carrying an improvised weapon...and they're easily gripped and can be used to hook a sucka too.