Traditional MA's flowery impractical techniques

[marques]

Unfortunately this is subjective. No one will ever admit their own style has flowery BS fluff in it. But they can point out in a heartbeat all the stuff in every other style.

I admit my style had many things I would not try IRL. But they gave knowledge about how to manipulate a human body/mind.

I would simplify the “BS” to use (or make useful) in sparring and integrate with everything else. We can learn a lot from fancy stuff.

What happens in many scenarios is we don’t know what is for learning and what is for performance (or how to connect both).

How much BS we get at university? Or in any other training. Then it is up to us to make something of this; and fill the blanks.

 

[DaveB]

I probably shouldn't have written 'flowery'.

Entirely my fault but I've miscommunicated the theme of this thread.
I was hoping for less funny bad, and more, 'why would they?'.

Many martial arts are routinely maligned and dismissed for not producing fighters and the reason is that they spend too much time teaching ineffective techniques.

So what are the bread and butter stuff that every day martial arts styles are teaching that people try to take into the ring but can't get to work?

I'm sure chi sau is one of them so any takers? Why doesn't it work in fighting? Or does it?

 

[Noah_Legel]

I probably shouldn't have written 'flowery'.

Entirely my fault but I've miscommunicated the theme of this thread.
I was hoping for less funny bad, and more, 'why would they?'.

Many martial arts are routinely maligned and dismissed for not producing fighters and the reason is that they spend too much time teaching ineffective techniques.

So what are the bread and butter stuff that every day martial arts styles are teaching that people try to take into the ring but can't get to work?

I'm sure chi sau is one of them so any takers? Why doesn't it work in fighting? Or does it?

While I don't practice a Chinese martial art, we do have a variety of drills that are similar to chi-sau, and I would argue that it does work in fighting--it just doesn't look like what you're looking for. Having a fight with any type of "sticky hands" drill requires both fighters to agree to fight that way. You can (and we do) spar like that. It's important to understand that you are doing it to develop specific skills, though; the tactile sensitivity to be able to tell what is going on by feel, and the ability to then manipulate an opponent's limbs, and set up your own techniques from there. That type of thing happens a lot in fighting, even among people who don't train in traditional martial arts (I like watching Robbie Lawler and Matt Brown do it in the UFC, personally).

Basically, it's a drill or training method meant to develop specific skills, and is not meant to emulate a realistic fight--not all training methods do, or have to. You can find such things in pretty much every martial art, honestly.

 

[Buka]

There’s no flowery nor ineffective techniques in traditional MA. You guys are just stupid for thinking otherwise.

Exhibit A:

That one NEVER gets old.

That's because Grandmasters are age defying. And the deadly triple shuto at the fifty second mark? Classic. Always good to have in your bag of tricks.

 

[Flying Crane]

I probably shouldn't have written 'flowery'.

Entirely my fault but I've miscommunicated the theme of this thread.
I was hoping for less funny bad, and more, 'why would they?'.

Many martial arts are routinely maligned and dismissed for not producing fighters and the reason is that they spend too much time teaching ineffective techniques.

So what are the bread and butter stuff that every day martial arts styles are teaching that people try to take into the ring but can't get to work?

I'm sure chi sau is one of them so any takers? Why doesn't it work in fighting? Or does it?

Who decides they are ineffective? The guy on the outside, looking in, who has never trained in the method and is not in a position to understand how it is properly used and what is it’s purpose? That guy is in no position to decide. He does not know.

This is usually a case of people passing judgement over something they have no experience with. People ought to stop doing that.

Maybe people ought to stop trying to judge a different system based on prior experience in something else. Maybe people need to recognize that there are some things that are simply outside of their realm of experience and expertise, and they will not understand them unless and until they actually take some time to honestly study the method with an open mind, under a good instructor. Otherwise it’s just people judging something that they do not know.

 

[Martial D]

Those are neither "unrealistic" nor "BS." They are an athletic performance art, designed intentionally to be an athletic performance art, and everyone in them knows full well that they're an athletic performance art. Nothing in those performances was meant to be a practical way of fighting off a mugger, and every single performer in those videos knows that.

Even after I made the edit to pre-empt buthurt posts(where I said pretty much what you did in less words) you still make one anyway.

The topic of discussion here is flowery and unrealistic techniques contained within martial arts. These are examples.

 

[pdg]

Who decides they are ineffective? The guy on the outside, looking in, who has never trained in the method and is not in a position to understand how it is properly used and what is it’s purpose? That guy is in no position to decide. He does not know.

This is usually a case of people passing judgement over something they have no experience with. People ought to stop doing that.

Maybe people ought to stop trying to judge a different system based on prior experience in something else. Maybe people need to recognize that there are some things that are simply outside of their realm of experience and expertise, and they will not understand them unless and until they actually take some time to honestly study the method with an open mind, under a good instructor. Otherwise it’s just people judging something that they do not know.

That's essentially why I only judge the art(s) I train.

 

[Hanzou]

Who decides they are ineffective? The guy on the outside, looking in, who has never trained in the method and is not in a position to understand how it is properly used and what is it’s purpose? That guy is in no position to decide. He does not know.

This is usually a case of people passing judgement over something they have no experience with. People ought to stop doing that.

Maybe people ought to stop trying to judge a different system based on prior experience in something else. Maybe people need to recognize that there are some things that are simply outside of their realm of experience and expertise, and they will not understand them unless and until they actually take some time to honestly study the method with an open mind, under a good instructor. Otherwise it’s just people judging something that they do not know.

This is ineffective:

As is this:

I've trained in that method of fighting, and neither is utilized properly for their stated purpose.

 

[pdg]

The topic of discussion here is flowery and unrealistic techniques contained within martial arts. These are examples.

The problem is that there are things in (almost?) every art that isn't directly applicable, for instance the ever popular sitting (horse/riding/whatever) stance while punching from the hip.

That's not exactly an effective technique in itself, might not "use it in a fight", so it gets maligned.

But it's not meant for direct application - does that mean it should be scrapped? Plenty say yes, scrap it - I'm not one of them...

 

[Martial D]

The problem is that there are things in (almost?) every art that isn't directly applicable, for instance the ever popular sitting (horse/riding/whatever) stance while punching from the hip.

That's not exactly an effective technique in itself, might not "use it in a fight", so it gets maligned.

But it's not meant for direct application - does that mean it should be scrapped? Plenty say yes, scrap it - I'm not one of them...

But if you saw someone take a horse stance and start throwing hip punches would you find that to be a realistic strategy?

I'm not saying anyone would, but some people would.

 

[pdg]

But if you saw someone take a horse stance and start throwing hip punches would you find that to be a realistic strategy?

I'm not saying anyone would, but some people would.

Well...

If someone got squared up to and they dropped into that stance with fists on hips, no, that'd be silly and just asking to get punched in the face.

However, if someone was just standing there and another person tried to punch them and their reaction is to drop and shift slightly to the side (thereby avoiding the punch) and returning the punch from having their arms just dangling, then y'know - if it works it works - and in a limited number of circumstances it might actually work.


So really my personal opinion of all these "ineffective" techniques - you can only really say they're ineffective if you fully consider every possible context.

Oh, and you have to work to an agreed specification for "effective" - how many MA classes include press-ups and sit-ups?

 

[skribs]

But if you saw someone take a horse stance and start throwing hip punches would you find that to be a realistic strategy?

I'm not saying anyone would, but some people would.

Our drills start from a ready position instead of a fighting stance (assuming you're not going to be in a fighting stance when you get sucker punched). Most of them involve a 45-degree movement off the line of attack. One option as you complete that step is to land in a horse stance, so you're square to the opponent (but he's not square to you unless he brings his hips around), and then you can throw those hip punches.

But it's not a static position. It's not the default stance. And you just drop into the stance while your opponent is square to you and invite him to kick you in the smallsies.

There is a realistic application of the horse stance hip punches, but it's not the basic technique drill learned when you start taking the art.

 

[Mitlov]

Even after I made the edit to pre-empt buthurt posts(where I said pretty much what you did in less words) you still make one anyway.

The topic of discussion here is flowery and unrealistic techniques contained within martial arts. These are examples.

The original post states it was inspired by a thread about western martial arts practitioners who try flowery and unrealistic techniques in actual fights, and just get punched in the face. Specifically this thread (" a wannabe fighter tries to use some fancy kung fu technique only to get KOd by a simple slap or punch or hammerfist by his untrained opponent"). You said "hese are the sorts of flowery movements I believe OP was alluding to". But they're not.

There's a huge difference between flowery and elaborate technique done that way intentionally for aesthetic purposes (stage combat, performance arts, wuxia films, etc) and people selling something as practical fighting technique when it isn't. The "BS" label is appropriate for the latter, but not the former.

As for "butthurt," yeah right. The conversation thus far:

"Performance arts are BS, you can't fight that way."
"They're actually not BS, they know they're performance arts and there's nothing wrong with that."
"OMG YOU'RE SO BUTTHURT"

 

[Martial D]

The original post states it was inspired by a thread about western martial arts practitioners who try flowery and unrealistic techniques in actual fights, and just get punched in the face. Specifically this thread (" a wannabe fighter tries to use some fancy kung fu technique only to get KOd by a simple slap or punch or hammerfist by his untrained opponent"). You said "hese are the sorts of flowery movements I believe OP was alluding to". But they're not.

There's a huge difference between flowery and elaborate technique done that way intentionally for aesthetic purposes (stage combat, performance arts, wuxia films, etc) and people selling something as practical fighting technique when it isn't. The "BS" label is appropriate for the latter, but not the former.

As for "butthurt," yeah right. The conversation thus far:

"Performance arts are BS, you can't fight that way."
"They're actually not BS, they know they're performance arts and there's nothing wrong with that."
"OMG YOU'RE SO BUTTHURT"

That's an interesting interpretation of this conversation. It remains that all of those techniques are part of those styles. Just because you are drawing a line between performance and fighting techniques changes nothing. That some of those techniques are impractical and hardly used in competition is kinda the point.

 

[drop bear]

The actual set up is fine but what shes doing is bs. She didnt throw a single strike and she put herself against the wall a number of times

I liked the vaguely rolling sideways a bit mount escape.

Which worked. People just went flying off her.

 

[drop bear]

They exist because they sell (club subscriptions, movies...); and they are BS until someone make them work. (Overeem “karate kid kick” comes to my mind.)

Yeah but that is the other part of this discussion. Just because you do a karate kick and overeat does one doesn't mean it's the same kick.

 

[drop bear]

Thanks for sharing that one. It definitely made my day. I wonder if the woman being tested thinks she can actually fend off 5 attackers at the same time.

Maybe she should watch the video and realize that they took turns rather than ganging up on her. And they didn’t try to hold on when she countered. And no one hit hard enough to make her hit the deck and have the barrage of kicks from the circle that would’ve been there if she pissed 5 people off enough to actually get jumped.

Nah, she’s a badass that can fend of 5 people.

At least she’s trying. That’s better than sitting on the couch and watching tv or watching YouTube videos and trying to create her own Isiah90 system where she’s getting shot with nerf guns and being hit with imaginary melee weapons.

Edit: then again, she’s being attacked by an imaginary mob, so pick your poison here. At least she’s getting a workout and experiencing the adrenaline dump.

It looked like an Italian soccer team.

The instructor seemed convinced. Cos they are not going easy on her.

 

[drop bear]

Who decides they are ineffective? The guy on the outside, looking in, who has never trained in the method and is not in a position to understand how it is properly used and what is it’s purpose? That guy is in no position to decide. He does not know.

This is usually a case of people passing judgement over something they have no experience with. People ought to stop doing that.

Maybe people ought to stop trying to judge a different system based on prior experience in something else. Maybe people need to recognize that there are some things that are simply outside of their realm of experience and expertise, and they will not understand them unless and until they actually take some time to honestly study the method with an open mind, under a good instructor. Otherwise it’s just people judging something that they do not know.

Fair point. I have never tried heroin. I just assumed it was bad for me. Maybe I have the wrong impression

 

[now disabled]

I guess that it all depends on what is defined as a TMA

I do know in my art that there are things taught in a certain way that if done outside a dojo would be unrealistic, however to my mind there is a reason why at first things are taught that way ie to achieve basic understanding of movement and body dynamics, yes that could be a definite cause to say "yeah unrealistic" but that is how the basic elements and foundations are taught.
if anyone does not "understand" why things are done i a certain way then ask, if the teacher has a full grasp then he/she should be able to explain.
It could also be said that people themselves are to quick in this day and age to criticize and pick apart or jump on a band wagon

 

[pdg]

jump on a band wagon

I don't do bandwagons.

Mainly because there's usually people on them, and people just annoy me...