Towards a Minimum Hapkido Standard

[iron_ox]

I feel J.R and Rudy are doing the right thing promoting the KMA and are indeed Hapkido.....Has anyone invited J.R West here so he can have the right to explain or is better to just insinuate behind his Back ?

Excuse me, but it was Rudy who brought J.R. West into this.

Hello all,

It is always intersting to me how the discussion about lineage always becomes one of "what I can do on the mat is and what he can do on the mat is...". Why is that? Not one comment was brought up deriding anyone's abilities in terms of their teaching or training - but for some reason this ALWAYS seems to be the final issue for people that cannot discuss lineage without undo emotion - hey, even I am not above getting a little angry.

This seems such a simple matter, not one to get so wound up from.

Bruce, sorry if you felt I was a little direct to Rudy - did you read his post? Not exactly flattering stuff for some of us...

I still think that we are doing GREAT without heavy moderation (with all due respect Georgia, thank you for your input). People, we are MARTIAL ARTISTS - cut from different cloth than most - we deal with defending ourselves and others and our honor - so we might get abrasive - if people cannot handle discussion and won't read posts carefully and jump to conclusions, maybe a discussion board about the qualities of kittens is better suited for them. But I see nothing wrong with what has gone on, stuff given and taken - good life lessons here.

Bruce's original intent was a discussion about a physical standard by which KMA's could be grouped as Hapkido. I personally do not believe in this, as I see Hapkido in the Choi/Ji vain only - but he and I can still discuss our differences with some veal.

The idea of lineage really seems to worry some people. Shame really, because it is a facinating subject. You can, as your perogotive, feel defined by what you do or what you are, I do not feel that Hapkido is just "what you do" but also who you are. If the only reason we study is not a full understanding of what it is we are doing, including the heritage of what we are doing, then it is on a very simple level correct that an attacker does not care. But, if this is the case, handgun training is quick and effective - and will stop any attacker. I don't train just to ward off a phantom menace, but for the value and frankly the fun that learning a complete art, lineage included.

 

[iron_ox]

Just answer A or B, please.

Yeah, good job Stuart, I picked "A" as well!

 

[American HKD]

Very good, then. I've taken the liberty of adding an anonymous poll to this thread. The end date is posted above the poll. I will publish the results once it is closed.

Georgia

If you want to take a poll at least do it with with people who have some substantial rank in HKD, KS, and HRD to help ensure they have an understanding of the complexities of the issues at hand and the many veiw points comming from each camp.

Myself, Bruce, Rudy, Todd, Kevin, and Lugo are all Instructors with 20 years or more in the Korean Arts. I did'nt see many guppies participating in our discussion so you poll could be flawed from the outset.

Also Georgia each Instructor even those from the same camp can each required different rank requirements. My Master Ji Han Jae mainly cares about the principles of the techniques not that each Instructor has to teach the same exact technique FWIW

Your questions are not set up right IMHO and mean very little.

I will post different question to consider

 

[American HKD]

There should be a Hapkido database to (multiple answers allowed):

1. Record a Database with proof of lineage only - who received rank from whom - regardless of current affiliation

2. Don't Record database of proof of lineage only - who received rank from whom - regardless of current affiliation
3. Record active lineage - list only those dans who are actively teaching Hapkido

4. Don't Record active lineage - list only those dans who are actively teaching Hapkido

Lastly the techniques and foundations of Hapkido were already set forth from the Founder Choi Young Sool & Ji Han Jae. If you really learned Hapkido you'll know them if not you don't. Nobody can set them up for everybody.

 

[glad2bhere]

"...... Has anyone tried just plain training instead complaining and worrying about who is and who isn't I Know it might be a new concept for some but your Hapkido will improve......"

Yes. I for one did this for a good many years. I kept my mouth shut. I didn't ask questions. I ponied-up my tuition whenever it was due. I don't know what other peoples experience has been or if they have done the same thing. I can tell you that the result I experienced was that my understanding of the Korean martial arts generally, and Hapkido specifically, rapidly took on whatever limitations my teacher had. It was not until I met GM Myung and began to understand what my responsibilities to the KMA community, and myself, are that I stopped doing all the taking and started giving back. I think I can say without fear of contradiction that at face value it sounds very laudable to "stopping talking; start training" and if thats what you believe don't let the door hit you on the butt. In the meantime the "stop talking; start training" philosophy as I have seen it has allowed a lot of leaders to keep the Hapkido arts stagnant and splintered where other arts have moved ahead. Had I done this my understanding of Hapkido arts would be bound by what my teachers knew and nothing more. Maybe thats the way you want the Hapkido community, but not me.

".....Do you think an attacker cares what your linage is ? The Hospital ride for him is the same distance....."

Is that all you think Hapkido is about---? Attacker this? Fight-fight-that? Maybe YOUR Hapkido is all about that and thats fine for you if it is. Mine isn't. Some people care about lineage. Noone says you have to. I don't know what the attacker thinks and could care less. I am sure the feelings are mutual. Don't want to talk about lineage? Don't. Not interested in what people have in common versus how they are different? Fine. Guess if you are so disinterested I'm wondering why you needed to pipe-up.


Stuart:

I think you have gone to the well once too often. Someone just did you a favor and your first response was not even a "thank you" but to advise the moderator where their gift fell short of your expectations.

To put it bluntly, I am beginning to question your motives. You have on a few occasions, now, raised the matter of people working together. What I have seen is that you consistently sabotage or object on some pretext when people do this. Rereading your many posts I think there is a hidden agenda to your contributions. I think you are making an arguement for authenticating a Hapkido career made up of moving from one experience to another. Now you are the proud owner of a "patchwork quilt" and are wondering where to go now. You are reaching around making a case that your experience is as valid in the Hapkido arts as everyone elses and maybe it is and maybe it isn't. What I CAN say is that you don't seem to be succeeding selling your position here and you are definitely not dealing well with that lack of success.

"......If you really learned Hapkido you'll know them if not you don't. Nobody can set them up for everybody......"

I am likewise convinced that you are purposely and repreatedly misrepresenting the purpose of a minimal standard. On this string along I have, no less than five times, stated that the purpose of a minimal standard is to facilitate communication. (Pg. 1 ".....I think we can identify a simple set of basic skills that a person need have from cross-referencing the material of existing systems and identifying commonalities.") In contradiction, you have repeatedly made statements suggesting that individuals can be somehow compelled this way or that using such a standard when you know this is not the intent. I beleive you undrstand the real purpose of this thread. If after 17 pages of posts you have NOT understood the purpose of this thread and have not asked for clarification, I can only conclude that you are not only willfully sabotaging your own efforts but willfully contributing to the failure of others' discussion.

If your last post was honest and you sincerely mean "A" then lets get on with it. What the heck are you waiting for? Whats with all of this singing and dancing? Are you gonna do it or not? If yes, the focus of THIS thread is a minimal standard. Speak to that and tell us how this is going to help. If not would you kindly refrain from hi-jacking the string, please?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Kumbajah]

I thought this thread was about minimum standards- " here is a set of basic techniques - now what will we all agree to call them." There was never any intention of offering rank or legitimizing someone saying what they do is Hapkido. It is an academic endeavor. So we who correspond on this list and gather occasionally could be on the same page technically and linguistically.

Linage is valid only to the point if you offer it as validation. "I know what I do is Hapkido because I received my Dahns from Y who learned from X etc." There are some that claim to teach Hapkido that aren't. Guess what? - you can't stop them. Have you ever seen a TKD dojang that didn't claim to teach "some Hapkido"? The only thing that you can do is be an example of what "true" Hapkido is. If people are truly interested they will seek you and others like you out. Ranks have been bought and sold there is no guarantee that they are true valid evaluation of knowledge and skill. Even Choi and Ji have let some through the cracks. These are men not mudo gods.

FWIW - Choi- Ji Han Jae - KIm Jin Pal - Me. Just incase the argument "the only people that don't care about linage are those that don't have it" is thrown out again.

This is getting tiresome.

Brian

 

[glad2bhere]

Have Faith, Brian. The next post is going to step over the line into concepts and constructs. I have been having difficulty not so much with identifying and defining these but making sure that the Korean equivalent is accurate. No small feat, that. FWIW.

BTW: I have not heard from anyone about the list of posted material under "Minimal Standards" on my website. Nobody says I have stopped accepting in-put.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Bruce,

My motives are the same as my original post and that was to consider a verified Hapkido database, that seemed to offended a couple of people except Kevin, Todd, Disco, and you.

When Rudy didn't like it because he claimed it was exclusionary you seemed to change your mind pretty fast and take the PC route.

Political correctness has gotten the best of you it seems.

Either you feel it's a worthwhile or not.

That's my motive.

 

[Kumbajah]

Didn't you start a thread on this - why hijack this one?

There are existing hapkido data bases. Hapkido-info.net, JR has his schools on his site, Hal has the North American KHF on his site, Rudy has his, Fabian his and MartialArtsResource.com/Ron Baine, etc ad nauseam. There are lineage charts as well. The web is a font of information.

<whine>"but they're not validated"</whine> Who's going to say who's legit? If it’s a school - go see. Compare with other schools. Only one? Guess that’s your only option –wuddayagunna do? If it’s a person ask around. Emails telephone etc. Come on – there was a little tiff here about legitamacy. How are you going to filter though the whole of the USA?

Forgive me if I’ve offended the Grand Poo Bah of the Hapkido Police.

 

[glad2bhere]

That PC label seems to be getting thrown around pretty good. I am beginning to wonder what your operational definition for the term is.

I sent you my information. That was pretty pro-active and supportive. What more you want you will have to make known. In the meantime, are you going to do anything or not?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Black Belt FC]

Dear Lugo

YOUR TOTALLY WRONG! I'm not excluding Master Seo he did it himself when he left Hapkido and made Kuk Sool Won. I did'nt do it!

That does'nt mean I don't respect him or you in any way. I personally believe Kuk Sool is a sister Art to Hapkido and we can easily work together and train together but our origins are slightly different as is the Art.

We don't have forms, we don't claim an chinese origins and some weapons according to Rudy, but we have much in common from Choi Yong Sool.

It's always been very simple people don't want to hear it for some reason.

Master Stuart,



Thank you for clarifying your intentions and recognizing that we’re all part of the same family. You’re right that the curriculum techniques from one branch to another are different but similar in many ways. A part from instructing and training in Hapkido I have a group of instructors that I train with that do a form of Aiki JuJitsu, they recognized my rank since they say “we’ll come from the same linage and family”. In fact these guys swear that I’m really teaching their form of Jujitsu with alterations, while some Hapkido groups swear that I’m teaching Jujitsu. Go figure. The founder and Hapkido go back to Daito-ryu Aiki Jujutsu, we’re link by our common heritage from which most of the Hapkido techniques flow.


If a standard is to be made then all groups that are willing to partake should be included and accepted, that’s my only discord.


Warmest Regards

Lugo

 

[American HKD]

That PC label seems to be getting thrown around pretty good. I am beginning to wonder what your operational definition for the term is.

I sent you my information. That was pretty pro-active and supportive. What more you want you will have to make known. In the meantime, are you going to do anything or not?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bruce

I don't want to debate what PC is or isn't call me on the phone if you'd like and we can talk a bit or I'll call you if you Private me your number.

As I posted early on I asked for help from interested people to see if this idea

#1. Had merit for Instructors & all dan ranks alike
#2. Would help the students that are being sold a bill of goods
#3. Would clarify linage of who's who.

Unfortunatly all it did was make people argue.

I don't know what I will do with the idea at this point if this type of reaction is what I'll get if I went to the next level and started a real online Database.

People aren't ready to accept thier own backgrounds especially if me or someone else catagorizes them in a way they don't like. So you have to say what people want to hear BTW that's what I mean by PC in this case.

 

[American HKD]

Master Stuart,



Thank you for clarifying your intentions and recognizing that we’re all part of the same family. You’re right that the curriculum techniques from one branch to another are different but similar in many ways. A part from instructing and training in Hapkido I have a group of instructors that I train with that do a form of Aiki JuJitsu, they recognized my rank since they say “we’ll come from the same linage and family”. In fact these guys swear that I’m really teaching their form of Jujitsu with alterations, while some Hapkido groups swear that I’m teaching Jujitsu. Go figure. The founder and Hapkido go back to Daito-ryu Aiki Jujutsu, we’re link by our common heritage from which most of the Hapkido techniques flow.


If a standard is to be made then all groups that are willing to partake should be included and accepted, that’s my only discord.


Warmest Regards



Lugo

Thanks for undestanding my point.

 

[Disco]

Stuart, I say continue on with the database. People that have been around for awhile know where they stand or at least they should. The time for "PC" is long gone (How I do hate that term and what it entails). The old saying, "if you can't take the heat, then get out of the kitchen" should be the disclaimer. Most if not all of the disagreements have already been aired here and on other sites, so nothing new should leap out at folks. If something new should happen to present itself, than all the better. As I said before, whatever transpires will not affect what many people are doing and will continue to do. For some, it may lead to an enlightenment that may be beneficial in the long run.

 

[Master Todd Miller]

Stuart,

I say what you are trying to do has merit. It seems that some are just not willing to look at the points you and Kevin have made! No one has said that certain techniques do not work if your liniage is not there. Part of the problem with Hapkido these days are that if you do a few joint locks you are Hapkido! This is just crazy and not benneficial to anyone except those that have somthing to hide.

Just some thoughts.

www.millersmudo.com

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Todd:

".....Part of the problem with Hapkido these days are that if you do a few joint locks you are Hapkido! This is just crazy and not benneficial to anyone except those that have somthing to hide......"

I can't fault anything you wrote. What I think is that the problem does not stop there. Like spilling a glass of milk, there is the original mess--- and then there is the extended mess where the spilled milk runs across the table, down onto the floor, over papers and the like. Its not just that people do a few techniques and call it "Hapkido". Rather, I think its the image people build up about themselves. When I think of a number of people in the Hapkido leadership all I can remember is the wealth of mis-information they circulated about themselves---- or by extension about others. Furthermore that image is constantly in flux. When I was contacting people off-line to find out where they wanted to be in the lineage ("family tree") that I work on the most common response was a series of names and dates--- and a strong desire NOT to be pidgeon-holed in any one organization or with any one person.

Now, I bet people are wondering why I am pursuing this when the title of this string is "minimal standards". Well, the fact is that this same very "elastic" or "plastic" approach to ones own art causes no-end of problems in trying to identify a catelogue of basic Hapkido information. If people are constantly changing, "in flux" if you will, with their Hapkido and its identity, well no wonder they don't want a single set of terms by which to communicate!! Its a kind of need to be "all things to all people" (THERE'S some 'PC' fer ya, Kevin!! :mp5: ).

So, lets say that right now, December 2004, we adapt a lineage, a criteria that characterizes Hapkido. What happens in 5 months when people have moved on to some other teacher? I ask because I believe THESE are more typical of the folks we have in the Hapkido community than people like myself who have stuck with a particular person for a good many years. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[jfarnsworth]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Jason Farnsworth
-MT Moderator-

 

[Paul B]

So, lets say that right now, December 2004, we adapt a lineage, a criteria that characterizes Hapkido. What happens in 5 months when people have moved on to some other teacher?

Hi Bruce,

The criteria won't change,it is what it is,right? So.. how is that affected by people who skip around? Those type of people probably don't care anyway about criteria. The lineage part is something that will probably change time and again,with new teachers being added,as in my case,and let's face it,it's hard for some people to be a conformist in an art full of individualists!

I personally would rather find a teacher and stick with him/her as you have done,but there will always be circumstances such as mine...shame.

 

[kwanjang]

...Rudy feels all the Hapkido derivitives are the same Art that's Ok, but when asked if he'll cross rank a Sin Moo person he said no way.
Why not if it's all the same Art? Because he really feels there's a difference deep inside....

Hello Stuart:
I would not cross rank ANYONE from ANY art. I simply do not believe that cross ranking is within my mandate that is all. I LOOK at people who want rank from me OR I supply a person with an NKMAA certificate that denotes what he has earned in a particular Korean art from a reputable organization. I do not push anything on anyone, but I WILL always try to help people such as Paul by providing a continuing "home" for them if their original Instructor disappears.

Some people apparently believe that this means that I am after money. Bruce, and many others, will testify that I NEVER asked for ANY money. I will not even bother to answer Kevin's post. My reputation allows me to forego such rantings. Stuart, you and I have differences of opinion; however, we both serve the Korean martial arts community by remaining civil while we disagree... I think that is a good start

BTW, sorry it took so long to get back posting. I don't know if anyone else has problems with this forum. It is not for lack of trying, but I am having a hard time getting on the last few weeks.

 

[kwanjang]

Stuart writes: "When I started my own Alarm Company and left my former employer even though I learned my craft from them I became thier Competetion. I no longer represent them and now represent my own business affairs. I can't market myself as them anymore because I'm not part of them anymore, that was the past."

Hello Stuart. this is a great way to illustrate just what I mean by my posts. You started a new company, and you do NOT use your former companies name etc. However, you ARE in the same business... right??? You DO the essentially the same thing as you used to do in your former employer's company right???

This is exactly what I mean by my posts, but probably I may not say it the right way. My Instructor did the same thing, he began his own business and used a different name; however, he essentially teaches the same thing as he learned.

Now, we can say that he no longer teaches Hap Ki Do, but we ALL know that when Bruce gets his minimum standards down on paper my students will be able to do everything on his list. Is this then NOT Hap Ki Do, because my Instructor started his own company so to speak???? Like you started your company, many martial artists have such strong personalities that they MUST to start their own thing in order to fulfil their drive to do things their way. Because of ethics and TMs, they CAN'T call it the same thing, but they sure as heck teach the same thing (albeit with their own personal flair). I hope your example allowed me to explain myself a bit better.

BTW, thanks Hal and Bruce for your comments. To everyone on the forum, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.