Towards a Minimum Hapkido Standard

[iron_ox]

I can fully understand why the there is a group of people that want to keep the Hapkido community divided and ignorant of the reality that the art is the well spring of Choi, Yong Sul.

Yes, it is they that wish to continue to divide that community - by blaming Korean nationals, politics, business name changes(?), and other such nonsense, while continuing to say that whatever they teach is Hapkido - despite clear evidence to the contrary. This is simple self preservation of a financial standing - if the community comes together under a single banner, or single belief in a unified lineage, these people lose out big time - so it is only natural that they will continue to say that those of us that can demonstrate a single lineage are bogus if they are not included - no inclusion to them obviously means no money.

Georgia, you mentioned that we should be held accountable to a higher standard of action because we are martial artists and to a certain extent I agree - but when someone of supposedly high rank makes unwarranted personal attacks clearly you can see the need to respond.

Now, if we take a step back here. If a westerner, with a third dan in an art starts his own thing, he may be looked at with some sceptisicm, but if he years later starts to hand out rank in his original style that far exceeds his original rank - he would be ridiculed. The dan ranking system is sort of univesal for most martial arts and the basic code is the same - ranking cannot exceed (at most) one rank below your own. This has been sort of an unofficial standard across the board - so, back to the example, if the westerner has say a third dan, and hands out 9th dans, people have a natural right to be leary of this standard. So, why is that not the case for non-westerners?

I'm not going to level personal accusations at anyone. I got overzelous in responding to accusations from someone terrified of losing a financial stake in their livelihood. I should have known that that was wasted breath. Instead, I will retrain my focus on the issues - like where people stand, and on peoples standing in HAPKIDO - and leave the personal insults and accusations for lesser men.

 

[shesulsa]

Georgia, you mentioned that we should be held accountable to a higher standard of action because we are martial artists and to a certain extent I agree - but when someone of supposedly high rank makes unwarranted personal attacks clearly you can see the need to respond.

I refer you to the little triangle with the exclamation point inside at the right side top of each post (except your own). This is what we call the RTM feature. If you feel someone has personally attacked you or someone else in violation of the rules of posting on this site, please click it and Report The Message and let the Mods, SuperMods and Admin handle issues you find out of line for these fora.

This feature accomplishes much. For one thing, it gives me and Jason something to do. For another, any user can report any message they think is out of line or not in keeping with our sniping policy or just plain old offensive. Finally, it alerts the powers that be so that the matter can be addressed and you don't have to follow the same pattern and endanger yourself to similar disciplinary action as well, provided your posts are in keeping with our rules and regs.

Good luck.

 

[iron_ox]

Thanks Georgia.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Rudy:

Thank you for your Xmas wish--- and for your post. I want to use it to underscore in the clearest terms the purpose of a Minimal Standard.

"......Now, we can say that he no longer teaches Hap Ki Do, but we ALL know that when Bruce gets his minimum standards down on paper my students will be able to do everything on his list. Is this then NOT Hap Ki Do, because my Instructor started his own company so to speak???? Like you started your company, many martial artists have such strong personalities that they MUST to start their own thing in order to fulfil their drive to do things their way. Because of ethics and TMs, they CAN'T call it the same thing, but they sure as heck teach the same thing (albeit with their own personal flair). I hope your example allowed me to explain myself a bit better......"

Fact is that whether or not your students could do everything on the list or not---- I think we all know that they would be able to ----, that is NOT the purpose of such a standard.

As we have all seen from this string alone, there is very little talk of technical aspects but a whole lot of wind about who is authentic and who is not and why. I point out again that people talk like this not because it is necessary, but because we are unable to speak conveniently about anything of greater depth. We have no Koreans contributing here because we have no common language through which we can share with them. We do not contribute on THEIR NEts because we have no common language with which to share with them! I see no discussions of concepts or constructs upon which yu sool and hapki-yu-sool are based. What I DO see is a lot of "I do REAL Hapkido, and you don't because......". No depth. No technical discussion; just opinions and emotion back and forth. And when someone like me comes along and calls people on their superficial posts, or paints them into a corner, the response is something like, "well, talks cheap--- just train." No wonder Hapkido never develops beyond the yu-sool level! Know what "I" have noticed, Rudy? I have noticed that when "I" press people to be a little more disclosing about their motives, or to go into much greater depth even about their opinions, even THOSE conversations dry-up. So what do we have here, I wonder? Are we to discuss Hapkido as long as it never approximates anything more meaningful than opinion--- and shallow opinion at that? We can do something different if we really want to, but I am very disappointed at what I see as near-resistance to taking a different road than those who came before us. Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[kwanjang]

Georgia:
It might be prudent to place the two posts that started Kevin's ranting side by side, so it can clearly show that my comments were in no way insulting to the forum or to the parties involved. I simply asked some pointed questions about Stuart's attempt to create an organization that in the opinion of several people will further divide Hap Ki Do, and I did so because he had asked for our help in creating this organization. IMHO, my questions had not been answered clearly, and I for one am/was still not sure what Stuart is trying to do and I am not alone in that.

It is my firm belief that the manner proposed by Kevin (and to a degree Stuart) will damage Hap Ki Do rather than unite it, and I could/would NOT support that. I had hoped that by pointing this out the parties might alter their ways in order to allow for more unity. I believe that Stuart might see my point, but I am also quite sure that Kevin will not. So, there is an ongoing drive on my part to get a clear decision on what Stuart wants to do before I can throw my help behind him. Since it is Stuarts idea we are talking about, I thought it prudent to let him know my feeling.

From what I have read in this thread, the original intent by Bruce was to provide those who practice Hap Ki Do a platform for improved communication by creating a minimum standard. I have already supported him by sending my curriculum. My helping him in his efforts is clearly NOT the action of someone who is only interested in furthering his own organization (NKMAA) in order to make money as Kevin suggests in a number of posts he makes.

FWIW, many people here KNOW that I turn away people who ask me for certification in Hap Ki Do if I believe that their curriculum or standards do not meet the generally accepted criteria. In fact, I recently turned away a lucrative offer that was later picked up by someone who directly studies under GM Ji. Apparently this person felt that the group in question DID teach Hap Ki Do. My turning this group away while KNOWING they would be certified by this person anyway is again not the action of someone who (according to Kevin) is more interested in making money than promoting Hap Ki Do.

If asking what the agenda of Kevin and Stuart is will be regarded as a personal attack... I am guilty, and for that I do not apologize because some of the folks here DO want to know where this new organization is heading. How else are we to know if we should or should not support it as Stuart had asked. I do not believe I made any comments that were not directly related to clearing up the direction of the attempt to create whatever it is that is being discussed here, and I do not believe my post warranted the allegations that I am a money hungry fraud who does not care about Hap Ki Do.

As far as Kevin's claim he does not call me a fraud, I suggest that telling folks on this forum that I (and anyone else who does not have direct lineage to Choi) do NOT teach Hap Ki Do amounts to the same thing. Some of the most prominent Hap Ki Do people in the world recognize and agree that I indeed DO teach Hap Ki Do, and to have Kevin state publicly that I do not is to me the same as calling me a fraud and the folks who support my claim liars.

It is clear that SOME of the parties want to provide help, but another group is more interested in documenting direct lineage (and claiming that this is the ONLY group teaching Hap Ki Do) instead of uniting Hap ki Do practitioners. These issues should not be regarded as the same, and that is what I am advocating. Perhaps a different thread for each of these goals will prevent problems, because I would have absolutely nothing to say in a thread which promotes lineage with Choi, it is simply none of my business. However, I will continue to strive for unity and brotherhood in Hap Ki Do, and that is the group I wish to support.

At this point in time, I believe the original attempt by Bruce to create a minimum standard has evolved into two separate issues instead. 1. Minimum standards by Bruce. 2. A direct Choi lineage family tree that suggests that only THIS group practices Hap Ki Do by Stuart.

My posts are simply an attempt to provide thoughts for the folks who sit on the sidelines wondering whom they should support, and I will continue to do so without slandering anyone. I appreciate any moderator's efforts to make sure I do not overstep my goal, and I suggest you read again the two posts in question to see where things went wrong.

 

[kwanjang]

Dear Rudy:

Thank you for your Xmas wish--- and for your post. I want to use it to underscore in the clearest terms the purpose of a Minimal Standard.

"......Now, we can say that he no longer teaches Hap Ki Do, but we ALL know that when Bruce gets his minimum standards down on paper my students will be able to do everything on his list. Is this then NOT Hap Ki Do, because my Instructor started his own company so to speak???? Like you started your company, many martial artists have such strong personalities that they MUST to start their own thing in order to fulfil their drive to do things their way. Because of ethics and TMs, they CAN'T call it the same thing, but they sure as heck teach the same thing (albeit with their own personal flair). I hope your example allowed me to explain myself a bit better......"

Fact is that whether or not your students could do everything on the list or not---- I think we all know that they would be able to ----, that is NOT the purpose of such a standard.

As we have all seen from this string alone, there is very little talk of technical aspects but a whole lot of wind about who is authentic and who is not and why. I point out again that people talk like this not because it is necessary, but because we are unable to speak conveniently about anything of greater depth. We have no Koreans contributing here because we have no common language through which we can share with them. We do not contribute on THEIR NEts because we have no common language with which to share with them! I see no discussions of concepts or constructs upon which yu sool and hapki-yu-sool are based. What I DO see is a lot of "I do REAL Hapkido, and you don't because......". No depth. No technical discussion; just opinions and emotion back and forth. And when someone like me comes along and calls people on their superficial posts, or paints them into a corner, the response is something like, "well, talks cheap--- just train." No wonder Hapkido never develops beyond the yu-sool level! Know what "I" have noticed, Rudy? I have noticed that when "I" press people to be a little more disclosing about their motives, or to go into much greater depth even about their opinions, even THOSE conversations dry-up. So what do we have here, I wonder? Are we to discuss Hapkido as long as it never approximates anything more meaningful than opinion--- and shallow opinion at that? We can do something different if we really want to, but I am very disappointed at what I see as near-resistance to taking a different road than those who came before us. Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Hello Bruce:
Thanks for making your position VERY clear; however, I have a sneaky suspicion that your minimum standards will be used by scores of people to
"decide" who or who does not teach Hap Ki Do despite your intent. Yet, I do hope that it will also provide for more meaningful discussions, and with that hope I will continue to support your efforts. I am essentially a positive person, so we forge ahead despite some misgivings lol.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Rudy, Georgia, et al:

Since Rudy has come to believe that there are at least two activities here on this string (and since I can find nothing that disputes this observation, I am going to pull one of the other strings forward and transfer the discussion regarding a minimum standard to that string entitled "Minimum Standard Sign-up". Perhaps the will be of some service to folks who want to pursue the idea of lineage without casting a shadow on the idea of a minimum standard as a resource for improved communication. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[shesulsa]

Since I have participated in the discussion on this thread, it is increasingly difficult for me to act as a moderator here.

I will say that IT IS MY OPINION that splitting this thread off to rehash the same stuff over again is not going to work.

IT IS ALSO MY OPINION that this thread is going nowhere but in circles. My search for clarity in just what everyone really wants to do by setting a minimum Hapkido standard is still unresolved because, as you can see by the poll resutls, not everyone wants the same thing.

Earlier I posted on this thread how refreshing it was to see you folks discussing things in a gentlemanly manner - without sniping or griping or pointing fingers - and that has now changed. Rather than using the phrase I continue to emphasize "IN MY OPINION," some members have begun to accuse certain individuals of wrongdoing, ill intentions and so forth.

IT IS MY OPINION that this is what may kill Korean Martial Arts in this country. KMA is well known as being the problem child in the USA and this is one of the reasons why.

I was not willing to recommend locking the thread before because I had hopes that you folks could stop yelling at one another and continue the productive conversing you had earlier, but that has not been the case.

As a member, I would still like to see you folks either return to the polite conversation you were having earlier or simply agree to disagree or propose another solution - so far I was ridiculed by one person for suggesting this. I don't know how a person would think they can carry KMA forward with this kind of garbage muddling one's thinking.

And rather than point fingers or blame, I am putting this forth as a member, not a Moderator and saying that THIS IS MY HUMBLE OPINION.

 

[American HKD]

Hello Stuart:
I would not cross rank ANYONE from ANY art. I simply do not believe that cross ranking is within my mandate that is all. I LOOK at people who want rank from me OR I supply a person with an NKMAA certificate that denotes what he has earned in a particular Korean art from a reputable organization. I do not push anything on anyone, but I WILL always try to help people such as Paul by providing a continuing "home" for them if their original Instructor disappears.

Some people apparently believe that this means that I am after money. Bruce, and many others, will testify that I NEVER asked for ANY money. I will not even bother to answer Kevin's post. My reputation allows me to forego such rantings. Stuart, you and I have differences of opinion; however, we both serve the Korean martial arts community by remaining civil while we disagree... I think that is a good start

BTW, sorry it took so long to get back posting. I don't know if anyone else has problems with this forum. It is not for lack of trying, but I am having a hard time getting on the last few weeks.

Dear Rudy,

Just so you know I even though we sometimes disgree it's never personal with me. I try to make my point as you do sometimes they're very direct but and at time frustrating but never personal.

The cross ranking thing was just trying to prove a point that our Arts are considered seperate, I do see where your comming from though no problem.

If they are one in the same Arts why does'nt each Organization recognize and issue a Cert to the other guy just by asking and paying of course.

That's my issue every org. say world recognized ranks ect, etc but it's not universally accepted.

Have a great Holiday season.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

"....If they are one in the same Arts why does'nt each Organization recognize and issue a Cert to the other guy just by asking and paying of course...."

I think you already know the answer to that and I have said as much in my post. To support this sort of mutual respect runs the risk of people not representing themselves as something special. Should such a thing happen a n applicant has no more reason to go to one art or school than another.
It was with no little pain that I sent a goodly number of my students packing for no reason other than that they had come to somehow see what they were doing as very elite compared to others. It was the work of the last 7 years pushed aside and I do not pretend that anyone is to blame other than myself. All the same I would rather have one or two students--- which I do now--- than more than 70 students whose personal development did not match their physical skills. I will continue to train and educate people in the Hapkido arts, but if a person is seeking some sort of validation from me for their skills I suggest they bring their lunch. Its not available for the asking and money carries no leverage. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Master Todd Miller]

"....If they are one in the same Arts why does'nt each Organization recognize and issue a Cert to the other guy just by asking and paying of course...."

I think you already know the answer to that and I have said as much in my post. To support this sort of mutual respect runs the risk of people not representing themselves as something special. Should such a thing happen a n applicant has no more reason to go to one art or school than another.
It was with no little pain that I sent a goodly number of my students packing for no reason other than that they had come to somehow see what they were doing as very elite compared to others. It was the work of the last 7 years pushed aside and I do not pretend that anyone is to blame other than myself. All the same I would rather have one or two students--- which I do now--- than more than 70 students whose personal development did not match their physical skills. I will continue to train and educate people in the Hapkido arts, but if a person is seeking some sort of validation from me for their skills I suggest they bring their lunch. Its not available for the asking and money carries no leverage. FWIW.

To support this sort of mutual respect runs the risk of people not representing themselves as something special:

Mutual respect is one thing, Hapkido IMHO from two major groups 1. GM Ji, Han Jae and those that came from that liniage or 2. DJN Choi, Yong Sul and his students that spent more than 12 years directly under his instruction & those that those that have trained with one of Chois Masters.

I know many of Ji's kicks are not taught by those that adhere to Chois teachings and I am sure there are some things that Chois students do differently than Jis.

If any student comes into my dojang they are allowed to where there belt as long as it is of dan level. Then see how they adapt to and comprehend our curriculum. The issue is that you have to have a reel good grasp with the basic curriculum before you can go on and the same goes for dan levels. One would have to be sort of egotistical to assume any thing different. The problem is that many want to go to an association just for promotion purposses! IMHO you have to see and feel a persons technique in order to see where there understanding is.

Just some thoughts.

Happy Holidays

www.millersmudo.com

 

[tshadowchaser]

Hapkido like so many other arts has grown to the point where there are off shoots of off shoots. Most people who head an organization do so because they want to set the standards and therefore will not bow down to anyone or any other organization setting up their rules and standards.

Would it be nice if Hapkido had a set standard for all that have Hapkido in the name YES Will it happen NO.

Once you get past the 3rd generation of instructors and start seeing "new" systems you no longer have a unified base on which to say "these are the rules and standards". It happens with most organizations when they reach a certain point. Can they then claim to be" Hapkido or kenpo or Arnis That will always be a debate

 

[kwanjang]

"....If they are one in the same Arts why does'nt each Organization recognize and issue a Cert to the other guy just by asking and paying of course...."

I think you already know the answer to that and I have said as much in my post. To support this sort of mutual respect runs the risk of people not representing themselves as something special. Should such a thing happen a n applicant has no more reason to go to one art or school than another.
It was with no little pain that I sent a goodly number of my students packing for no reason other than that they had come to somehow see what they were doing as very elite compared to others. It was the work of the last 7 years pushed aside and I do not pretend that anyone is to blame other than myself. All the same I would rather have one or two students--- which I do now--- than more than 70 students whose personal development did not match their physical skills. I will continue to train and educate people in the Hapkido arts, but if a person is seeking some sort of validation from me for their skills I suggest they bring their lunch. Its not available for the asking and money carries no leverage. FWIW.

To support this sort of mutual respect runs the risk of people not representing themselves as something special:

Mutual respect is one thing, Hapkido IMHO from two major groups 1. GM Ji, Han Jae and those that came from that liniage or 2. DJN Choi, Yong Sul and his students that spent more than 12 years directly under his instruction & those that those that have trained with one of Chois Masters.

I know many of Ji's kicks are not taught by those that adhere to Chois teachings and I am sure there are some things that Chois students do differently than Jis.

If any student comes into my dojang they are allowed to where there belt as long as it is of dan level. Then see how they adapt to and comprehend our curriculum. The issue is that you have to have a reel good grasp with the basic curriculum before you can go on and the same goes for dan levels. One would have to be sort of egotistical to assume any thing different. The problem is that many want to go to an association just for promotion purposses! IMHO you have to see and feel a persons technique in order to see where there understanding is.

Just some thoughts.

Happy Holidays

www.millersmudo.com

Hello Todd, Bruce and Stuart:
MY reason for not cross ranking is very simple. Cross ranking to me means getting certificates from different arts for ONE test. If I did not see the person do his or her stuff, I am not qualified to give them such a cross rank. If they are simply asking for the same rank their own Instructor gave to them to begin with, I don't see the need for me to issue another one. I think doing this would be an insult to the teacher who graded them in the first place, and I would not want to do that.

Georgia:
I appreciate your input, and I am sure that further conversations will be more reasonable. I am not one to continue such conversations. I see by YOUR post that you were equally unsure of what the intent of the group is, and that is all I wanted to clear up. I thought I had done so in a reasonable manner without slandering anyone.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Rudy:

"......MY reason for not cross ranking is very simple. Cross ranking to me means getting certificates from different arts for ONE test. If I did not see the person do his or her stuff, I am not qualified to give them such a cross rank. If they are simply asking for the same rank their own Instructor gave to them to begin with, I don't see the need for me to issue another one. I think doing this would be an insult to the teacher who graded them in the first place, and I would not want to do that......"

Honestly I don't know from cross-ranking and insulting other teachers. I have all I can do to keep "this" teacher on The Path. What I can say is that we are clearly in agreement about the nature of certification. Whether my art is close, similar or identical to someone else is, in the end, not the point. For me, the point is that when I put my name down on an application that goes to GM Myung for review, I am attesting to that persons' skill AND character. I don't teach Table Tennis or Bowling. I teach a traditional martial art and if I am going to attach my name to somebody's work I damn-well am going to know the work AND the Workman. This issue is a whole lot different than the matter of a minimal standard for improved communication. My sense is that Stuart knows this but continues to use this string to sell the validity of his Hapkido experience as comparable to that of others. Maybe things work that way in Baseball or Rugby. They certainly don't work like that in any traditional Korean Martial Art I know. However, he has a right to continue to lobby for his Hapkido experience and maybe someone will take him up on it. There are Hal and JR, Dr Kimm and a host of others. My guess is that he needs to try-around and see if anyone will bite. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Dear Rudy:

"......MY reason for not cross ranking is very simple. Cross ranking to me means getting certificates from different arts for ONE test. If I did not see the person do his or her stuff, I am not qualified to give them such a cross rank. If they are simply asking for the same rank their own Instructor gave to them to begin with, I don't see the need for me to issue another one. I think doing this would be an insult to the teacher who graded them in the first place, and I would not want to do that......"

Honestly I don't know from cross-ranking and insulting other teachers. I have all I can do to keep "this" teacher on The Path. What I can say is that we are clearly in agreement about the nature of certification. Whether my art is close, similar or identical to someone else is, in the end, not the point. For me, the point is that when I put my name down on an application that goes to GM Myung for review, I am attesting to that persons' skill AND character. I don't teach Table Tennis or Bowling. I teach a traditional martial art and if I am going to attach my name to somebody's work I damn-well am going to know the work AND the Workman. This issue is a whole lot different than the matter of a minimal standard for improved communication. My sense is that Stuart knows this but continues to use this string to sell the validity of his Hapkido experience as comparable to that of others. Maybe things work that way in Baseball or Rugby. They certainly don't work like that in any traditional Korean Martial Art I know. However, he has a right to continue to lobby for his Hapkido experience and maybe someone will take him up on it. There are Hal and JR, Dr Kimm and a host of others. My guess is that he needs to try-around and see if anyone will bite. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bruce,

Nice twist but on my thoughts but, Your Hapkido is the same as mine Hal's is the same as mine, Dr. Kimms is the same as mine, Myung is the same as mine JR West is the same as mine Jin Pal is the same as mine etc., etc.

That being said all these people should accept each others rank as valid period. you get my drift.

Joe Hapkido, or Joe TKD is not the same as mine I have seen that too many times and they're Hapkido is not the same as mine. I do have a problem with these types of so called Hapkido teachers.

I couldn’t care less about KS or HRD, but for people who think it's all the same art (and I'm not talking about Rudy here) my question was why don't they cross rank each other and end any problems. Yes I know they won't, but by not doing so they're just re-enforcing thier seperate positions and idenities even more. That's was the point I tried to get across before.

Example: All of the dozens of HKF Kwan's have Oh Se Lims name on thier Dan Cert. not even thier own teachers name appears on it and he's agrueably much more important than Oh Se Lim. Granted the KHF has many problems but they united many independents Kwans under one banner I see that as very good thing.

BTW each kwan as kept thier own tradition and way of presenting Hapkido to thier students because the KHF recognizes each Kwans independance as important.

Next, I'm well aware that people naturally have an independant spirit and want to do thier own thing, but can you have your cake and eat it too? Is that good for Hapkido? It's seem to me it will only widen the gap of Hapkidoin even more.

Bruce these are important thoughts regarding the unity and future of Hapkido, and more important IMO to minimum requirements, which BTW is a good idea I think I'm the one who first brought it up, and you ran with it if my memory serves me correctly.

Anyway I wouldn't turn your nose up at this, maybe nothing will change but at least I put it out there for people to be aware of.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

"......That being said all these people should accept each others rank as valid period. you get my drift....."

There is NO twisting going on--- and you KNOW there is no twisting going on. Just as you very subtly worked your agenda into this string on a Minimal Standard you are now very carefully taking one view but representing it as another. I Do get your drift--- better than you know.

When questioned you are always careful to frame things in terms of ALL PEOPLE "recognizing" each others rank. The subtle message that goes along under the surface is that "recognition" somehow tranistions into "validation" of one sort or another, which seems to be what you are actually talking about. I think your lack of candor is beginning to border on dishonesty.

Lets take the message from how YOU, yourself, represent it.

You say you want "recognition". Fine. I "recognize" you. You now have what you asked for---- or do you? What you really apparently want is for someone to say something closer to, "Stuarts practice, and the art that Stuart practices is just as valid as the one that I practice." As I am sitting at this keyboard I honestly don't know that is true, but I bet after having spent some time together I could at least make an educated guess for you, if it would help.

Now take it a step farther. Maybe your idea is a matter of me "validating" your practice. Having spent time with you and seeing that your practice is good, the next logical arguement is "why not certify me as being sound YMK Hapkido----that is----- if you recognize that my practice is "as good as" yours?"

Beep. "Sorry. You have submitted a request which is not recognized by this machine. Thanks for playing anyhow."

I will not validate you as YMK Hapkido unless you learn YMK Hapkido. I don't think Hal Whalen will validate you in his kwan, nor Rudy in his art nor JR in HIS art. They may take you into their organization so that you have people to Network with, and thats all to the good. But I don't see them giving you the sort of validation or certification you seem to be seeking. And that is just the way it is. Do we continue to have things in common? Yes. Do we need a common language through which to communicate? Absolutely. Will I still get out on the mat with you? Sure. Are you going to get paper from GM Myung, through me, attesting to your rank or standing? Not until you have learned YMK Hapkido.

Now, we both know that there are folks who are not as stiff-necked as I. I suggest that since you got yourself into the predicament that you find yourself that you approach someone who shares your more liberal idea of rank and standing. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

......I will not validate you as YMK Hapkido unless you learn YMK Hapkido. I don't think Hal Whalen will validate you in his kwan, nor Rudy in his art nor JR in HIS art. They may take you into their organization so that you have people to Network with, and thats all to the good. But I don't see them giving you the sort of validation or certification you seem to be seeking. And that is just the way it is. Do we continue to have things in common? Yes. Do we need a common language through which to communicate? Absolutely. Will I still get out on the mat with you? Sure. Are you going to get paper from GM Myung, through me, attesting to your rank or standing? Not until you have learned YMK Hapkido......

Dear Bruce,

You knowingly or unknowingly proved my point.

One one hand you always included all Hapkidoin as not to offend anyone, Rudy does the same thing, Rudy said Hapkido, Kuk Sools the same for posting lineage or to be included in a HKD database but it's not Ok to cross Association boundries for the sake of rank or unity. This is major hypocrosy in my book.

You called YMK Hapkido a seperate system of Hapkido and stated I need to learn it to get rank.

Surprise it's the same Hapkido I learned from Ji and Master Son. YMK or JJK whatever Kwan it's Ji Han Jae's Hapkido it all the same stuff. Hwang Sik Myung barely learned with Choi but considers him his real teacher. What a slap in the face to Ji. Look how many Dan ranks he got from Choi v.s. Ji, that's just crazy talk.

All these Kwans are nothing more than saying Bruce's school or Stuart's school. People making thier own Associations build up these seperate walls for one reason to be in control.

FYI to be clear this isn't about my rank or what I need. I don't need or want rank from Myung, Rudy, JR or anyone I have rank from the same person they or there teachers have rank from that's all I need.

Wake up and smell the coffee we're all the same from Ji's lineage that includes me, you, Hal, Dr Kimm, JR, Kim Jin pal, Myung, all the KHF, KHA, kwans, Wollmerhauser, etc. Rudy may be different I don't know.

So if you think my agenda is to have these people recognize each other for rank purposes your right and you can call me liberal if you wan't to that's Ok with me.

 

[iron_ox]

Hello Stuart,

Bravo.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

"....
On one hand you always included all Hapkidoin as not to offend anyone, Rudy does the same thing, Rudy said Hapkido, Kuk Sools the same for posting lineage or to be included in a HKD database but it's not Ok to cross Association boundries for the sake of rank or unity. This is major hypocrosy in my book....."

I was thinking that if you are going to use the word "hypocrisy" you might want to at least learn to spell it. My position stands that we all share common attributes in the Hapkido arts. That does not automatically entitle you to receive recognition in some particular kwan or organization. Its just that simple. What part of this statement DON'T you understand, Stuart?

".....You called YMK Hapkido a seperate system of Hapkido and stated I need to learn it to get rank....."

YMK is one take on Hapkido. KSW is another take on Hapkido. So is Sin Mu, Chung Do Kwan, Mu Sool Kwan and HRD. As far as I am concerned all of these folks could use a common language to communicate better. But having rank in Sin Mu does not automatically make you ranked in HRD. What part of this statement don't you understand, Stuart?

"......Surprise it's the same Hapkido I learned from Ji and Master Son. YMK or JJK whatever Kwan it's Ji Han Jae's Hapkido it all the same stuff. Hwang Sik Myung barely learned with Choi but considers him his real teacher. What a slap in the face to Ji. Look how many Dan ranks he got from Choi v.s. Ji, that's just crazy talk.

All these Kwans are nothing more than saying Bruce's school or Stuart's school. People making thier own Associations build up these seperate walls for one reason to be in control....."

Now you are just raving for the sake of raving. There are a number of differences between Myungs approach to Hapkido and his teacher Ji's. Having bounced from teacher to teacher I am not sure how you can even make an educated statement about these differences. But if you really don't NEED rank then whats your point? You started by hi-jacking this string with some stuff about a register. But if rank, or standing, or affiliation mean nothing to you whats your point? What are you doing beside calling attention to yourself? Since by your admission we are members of the same lineage derived from Ji what difference does it make to you who is in and who is out?

Or maybe you would just like to clear up this last little piece of business as you ended your post. Lets see---- which is the "real Stuart"?

" ........FYI to be clear this isn't about my rank or what I need. I don't need or want rank from Myung, Rudy, JR or anyone I have rank from the same person they or there teachers have rank from that's all I need.

OR

"So if you think my agenda is to have these people recognize each other for rank purposes your right and you can call me liberal if you wan't to that's Ok with me.."

OR

Maybe you yourself don't care about rank but you are simply making all of this fuss on behalf of those many disenfranchised poor who do.

(Yeah--- like THAT could be an option )

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Greeting,

My point again is we're all the same except for some minor details that are for the most part unimportant.

Listen my view is more universal not as separatist but, for arguments sake if a YMK guy came to me with a 1st dan as long as his techniques are "good" and he's a good person then I'm OK with ranking him in Sin Moo why not?

All he has to do is learn a different order and some Philosophy none of which is worth holding a guy back for.

If a guy comes from nowhere with good technique in the Hapkido style I would rank him as well why not?

What's so different about YMK v.s. Sin Moo that makes either one so special that a good Hapkidoin doesn't know already? (forms exclued)

Ji Han Jae will rank others if their Hapkido is good. IMO from what I can see and hear from him is he's above all that separatist stuff and since most of us are from his line anyway he's ranking his own Grandchildren so to speak.

This stuff is so simple Bruce what's your personal problem with it?

And yes the fuss is on behalf of others I have my rank already.