Thoughts on belt testing fees

[dvcochran]

This will likely sound completely nuts, as it flies in the face of conventional wisdom. I never had advanced techniques for black belts. Everyone one learned any and all techniques from the time they first started. Obviously, there were some physically complicated techniques that took time for some to be able to actually apply....and there were some that just weren't for everyone, like jumping head scissors, but everyone learned them anyway.

The best part about that was if and when a person made black belt he or she would have been drilling those techniques for five to eight years already.

I am in no way, shape or form saying this is the way to go for anyone else's curriculum, it's just what we always did. Seemed to work pretty good. Maybe it would have worked better if I had saved them for later in their careers, I don't know.

I feel where it helps the most is when chaining techniques/combinations together. We throw a lot at a person from jump. But there is a value in sorting out that information overload themselves.
Do I think some TKD has gotten complex and sacrifices practicality? Yes. Somewhere in that is the attempt to stretch out the curriculum and keep people working with interest out longer. As long as it is done the right way I don't think that is a bad thing.
That said, there is a simple beauty in a person learning the four basic punches.

 

[JR 137]

All of our classes are 1 1/2 hours. If there is not a proceeding class we usually run long.

Our kids classes go 45 minutes. Adults are scheduled for an hour. The only adult classes that end on time are on Wednesday night when black belt class follows it (that class reportedly never ended in less than 90 minutes); and on Saturday morning, because kids class immediately follows it. Adult class finishes when it finishes. If my teacher’s onto something or we’re in a zone, we’ll keep going. Sometimes people have to leave at the scheduled time (they’ll politely say they’ve got to head out) and my teacher will just politely excuse them while the rest of us keep at it.

I love my dojo. It’s so not the whole commercialized type of place. We’re like a family. A few who beats each other up, but a loving family nonetheless

 

[JR 137]

This will likely sound completely nuts, as it flies in the face of conventional wisdom. I never had advanced techniques for black belts. Everyone one learned any and all techniques from the time they first started. Obviously, there were some physically complicated techniques that took time for some to be able to actually apply....and there were some that just weren't for everyone, like jumping head scissors, but everyone learned them anyway.

The best part about that was if and when a person made black belt he or she would have been drilling those techniques for five to eight years already.

I am in no way, shape or form saying this is the way to go for anyone else's curriculum, it's just what we always did. Seemed to work pretty good. Maybe it would have worked better if I had saved them for later in their careers, I don't know.

If you save them for later in their careers, you then run into an issue we bring up every now and then - at higher ranks, there’s a kata or two that are pretty physically demanding. One in particular has some forward and backward rolls, kicks from the ground, etc. It’s taught at 4th dan. The 4th dans laugh and say they always wanted to learn that kata, but by the time they reached that rank, they were too old and broken down to be able to do it the way it’s supposed to be done.

The highest level kata in Shotokan is Unsu. Same thing happens often enough to them too.

 

[dvcochran]

Our kids classes go 45 minutes. Adults are scheduled for an hour. The only adult classes that end on time are on Wednesday night when black belt class follows it (that class reportedly never ended in less than 90 minutes); and on Saturday morning, because kids class immediately follows it. Adult class finishes when it finishes. If my teacher’s onto something or we’re in a zone, we’ll keep going. Sometimes people have to leave at the scheduled time (they’ll politely say they’ve got to head out) and my teacher will just politely excuse them while the rest of us keep at it.

I love my dojo. It’s so not the whole commercialized type of place. We’re like a family. A few who beats each other up, but a loving family nonetheless

Wish I could click 'love' for this post. You description is exactly the way I believe a dojo/dojang should be.

 

[skribs]

How about blunt discussions of sexual assault and/or options for killing someone? Probably not appropriate for an 8 year old. And something to get approval for from the parents of a 15 year old, too, I think.

Ah, yeah we don't really get into that in the dojang.

Grappling sessions can be an issue too, when working with kids. Especially if it's a small group, where you might be faced with the choice between a mixed gender pairing vs a large size/age/experience disparity.

I mean, a lot of grappling schools have kids classes. There's even a specific rank structure for kids in BJJ. When I did wrestling in middle school, there was no girl's league, so the girls wrestled with the guys.

I feel where it helps the most is when chaining techniques/combinations together. We throw a lot at a person from jump. But there is a value in sorting out that information overload themselves.
Do I think some TKD has gotten complex and sacrifices practicality? Yes. Somewhere in that is the attempt to stretch out the curriculum and keep people working with interest out longer. As long as it is done the right way I don't think that is a bad thing.
That said, there is a simple beauty in a person learning the four basic punches.

What are the 4 basic punches in your curriculum?

 

[Tez3]

When people are saying 'children's classes', what is the youngest they take? I can't imagine having 3 year olds in with adults for example.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Something to add-while it's not a dealbreaker for me if a dojo/school has belt testing fees, from the student perspective I'd much rather that be a part of the monthly fees. Even if I end up paying more in the long run.

The reason for that is consistency. I have a monthly budget that I rely on, so I want to know signing up to something how much something costs. Let's say that I budget for a school that's $100 per month, with testing fees of $100, approximately every four months. That comes out to about $125 per month. So in reality I'd be putting that extra 25 away anyway. Now if I'm ready to test in 3 months, I all of a sudden have to come up with the extra 25 in my budget (which for me is not a big deal, but for some it's an extra hassle), or delay my own testing for an extra month to match my budget. Which has nothing to do with my martial arts ability. If it takes me 5 or 6 months, that's extra money that I put away, which I don't know if I can take out, or should leave in case of a future month where I get ready to test early. Add in extra times or increasing rates as the belt level increases, and it gets more complicated for my budget.

I would assume this variation would also hurt the business as well, since it makes the income more varied, unless they are charging enough extra to add in a buffer.

I also feel like martial arts is alone in this. Essentially the idea behind belts (besides pride and bragging rights), is that every new belt indicates you're more advanced and that you're able to handle more advanced materials. When I played piano, my piano teacher didn't require me to pay for a test to start learning more advanced songs. With bouldering, in places that separate between beginner/intermediate/advanced, you don't have to pay to get evaluated to go on one of the higher levels. The lyra gym near me has different level classes too, and the instructor there from what I understand just informs you when you're ready. It seems unfair to pay for a service/training, and then be limited from more advanced aspects of that training based on your financial concerns when you're already paying for that training.

I'll go a step further and say that I don't like the training (including the testing) to be more expensive for the higher ranks. I prefer the opposite. I have to put more effort into newer students, and they require more attention. Advanced students can help with newer students, often have their own things they want to work on (so need less of my attention and direct guidance on what to do next). And having them around helps attract new students.

When I had my program on its own (as opposed to inside someone else's dojo), I never raised rates for existing students. When fees went up, they kept paying their original fee. This was my way of creating a natural progression of lower fees for folks who'd been around longer.

On a counter-note, though, I can see the benefit in lower monthly fees, and being able to save up (if necessary) for testing fees. But part of that may be because my income has always been inconsistent.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Kids are 50 minutes, adults (and kids black belts) are 1 hour.

I've never been able to get used to classes shorter than 90 minutes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This will likely sound completely nuts, as it flies in the face of conventional wisdom. I never had advanced techniques for black belts. Everyone one learned any and all techniques from the time they first started. Obviously, there were some physically complicated techniques that took time for some to be able to actually apply....and there were some that just weren't for everyone, like jumping head scissors, but everyone learned them anyway.

The best part about that was if and when a person made black belt he or she would have been drilling those techniques for five to eight years already.

I am in no way, shape or form saying this is the way to go for anyone else's curriculum, it's just what we always did. Seemed to work pretty good. Maybe it would have worked better if I had saved them for later in their careers, I don't know.

I toyed with this. The traditional method is a progressive curriculum. I go back and forth on my preference and tend to introduce techniques to students (once they get a foundation under them) when someone in the room needs to learn that technique.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Although this is something I was thinking about. At my old TKD school, we learned wrist grab escapes. At my new school, we learn wrist lock techniques to deal with those situations, and we don't actually teach the escapes. (I will sometimes teach them to the kids, who don't learn the wristlocks). I'm looking forward to when I open my own school, and one of the things I'm thinking is I would rather teach the escapes first. This would have the benefit of them learning a higher percentage move first, one they could actually apply without a long time of training. However, it would put them a few months behind in learning the actual wrist locks.

In my opinion, the escapes are the foundation for the locks. If you can't do the escape, you're not controlling the situation well enough to have any hope of a lock. And the escape's mechanic - even when it fails to escape - sets up a wide range of "next" options.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

When people are saying 'children's classes', what is the youngest they take? I can't imagine having 3 year olds in with adults for example.

I think the youngest we ever mixed with adults was 13 years old. And that's a bad mismatch in almost all cases in grappling.

 

[dvcochran]

What are the 4 basic punches in your curriculum?

Jab, cross, hook, uppercut.

 

[Dirty Dog]

When people are saying 'children's classes', what is the youngest they take? I can't imagine having 3 year olds in with adults for example.

We don't put a number on it. How about 'old enough to pay attention during an hour long class"?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We don't put a number on it. How about 'old enough to pay attention during an hour long class"?

Some days, I'm not old enough for that.

 

[skribs]

I've never been able to get used to classes shorter than 90 minutes.

I think part of it is because we have so many classes. Our classes are full, so it's not like we can combine classes to stretch them out. I don't think kids could get there that much earlier in our earliest classes, and our last ones get out at like 9:00 at night.

We don't put a number on it. How about 'old enough to pay attention during an hour long class"?

Our rule is 4 & up, but we do a trial period and maybe 10% of the 4-year-olds get told to grow up a little bit and come back in 6 months (in a little bit nicer tone than that). Personally, if it were up to me, we'd only be doing 7 & up, with younger being an exception on a case-by-case basis. The 4-7 year old class (which is 80% 4 and 5 year-olds) is the only class I teach that feels like work.

 

[WaterGal]

Are your BB testing Kukkiwon Dan grades? Do you get a real Kukkiwon certificate (it is easy to verify)? If so a significant portion of the money goes to Kukkiwon. Not certain, but if memory serves $300 for 1st Dan and it goes up for each Dan grade.

As of last year, Kukkiwon charges $70 for 1st dan/poom plus a bank fee, totaling less than $100. However, my understanding is that if you're going through a national organization like USAT or similar for other countries, they tack on an additional fee to process it for you.

 

[WaterGal]

It's World Taekwondo rules. Everyone needs a chestguard.

Although that's an awkward question I've had to answer with "ask your parents." The question is "why doesn't she need a groin cup?"

The solution we went with was to stock female cups. They're optional for the girls to actually wear, but they do get one with their sparring gear set.

 

[skribs]

The solution we went with was to stock female cups. They're optional for the girls to actually wear, but they do get one with their sparring gear set.

"Why doesn't she have to wear hers?"

Same question.

 

[Buka]

I think you and I may have had this conversation in another thread before, but I can see a couple reasons why I wouldn't train this way.

1. Some techniques build on each other. Like going from side kick, to back kick, to hook kick, to jump spinning hook kick. By drilling the side kick they're starting to learn all 3, but they're not going to do back kick until a few months in and a hook kick until further down the line.
2. Information overload. I'd rather start with the higher percentage techniques.

Yeah, we've probably had this conversation before, we've had a lot of great conversations.

Wallace was down the dojo one day and he pointed out something to me. He said "the first time you teach a white belt how to side kick he throws a nearly perfect hook kick." And I'm thinking to myself "say what?" And he says "call one of those new white belts over here." So, one comes over. He tells the kid to throw a side kick, which he does. As we all know, white belts have little control over their body movement, and usually little to no flexibility. The kid, all excited that this guy in our dojo calls on him, snaps out a side kick, and instead of bringing that leg back to position - what many call chambering or re-chambering, instead the kid's lower leg retracts with the heel coming back towards the butt) "Wallace says, "See that, nearly perfect hook kick."

Wallace always said that a hook kick is a thrown sidekick, meant to miss towards the toe side of the foot - and then the heel snaps back towards your butt, like a white belt who doesn't know how to really sidekick - hitting the opponent in the face.

And I always thought to myself, "son of a gun, ain't that interesting?"

 

[skribs]

@WaterGal @dvcochran

I just looked it up, and while I couldn't find it from the Kukkiwon site directly, I found $70 to be quoted from quite a few different forums and blogs as the price, and it goes up by varying amounts after that.