Thoughts on belt testing fees

[skribs]

I also feel like martial arts is alone in this. Essentially the idea behind belts (besides pride and bragging rights), is that every new belt indicates you're more advanced and that you're able to handle more advanced materials. When I played piano, my piano teacher didn't require me to pay for a test to start learning more advanced songs. With bouldering, in places that separate between beginner/intermediate/advanced, you don't have to pay to get evaluated to go on one of the higher levels. The lyra gym near me has different level classes too, and the instructor there from what I understand just informs you when you're ready. It seems unfair to pay for a service/training, and then be limited from more advanced aspects of that training based on your financial concerns when you're already paying for that training.

Tell that to my collection of guitars. Or golf discs. Or guns. Or my gaming PC. Or my lightsaber collection. Or my...well you get the idea. A lot of hobbies you can have get more expensive when you get more advanced.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Tell that to my collection of guitars. Or golf discs. Or guns. Or my gaming PC. Or my lightsaber collection. Or my...well you get the idea. A lot of hobbies you can have get more expensive when you get more advanced.

They can, but that's not a requirement to learn. After buying initial gear, most hobbies don't actually require you to spend extra expenses.

And even then, those are expenses you're paying for material. Not paying the people you're already paying for the privilege of learning the next part of what you paid them to teach you.

 

[wab25]

Just curious, may I ask which organization you join?

The American Judo and Jujitsu Federation. (AJJF)

 

[dvcochran]

I think there are certain things where having advanced classes works. Math and computer science, as the most obvious examples.

Agree. We have black belt classes twice/month. They are for adult red and black belts only.

 

[dvcochran]

They can, but that's not a requirement to learn. After buying initial gear, most hobbies don't actually require you to spend extra expenses.

And even then, those are expenses you're paying for material. Not paying the people you're already paying for the privilege of learning the next part of what you paid them to teach you.

Complimentary but not necessary?

 

[Ivan]

In my organization, the kyu rank belts are handled strictly by the dojos. The dojos I was a part of, and the school I run... we don't charge anything for belt tests. Some have an actual test, others just award the new belt when the student is ready. We don't even charge the student for the belt. (they are nothing fancy, just a generic belt of the appropriate color)

For Black Belt, the organization gets involved. They charge $100 for all Black Belt exams. That covers the students background check, and certificate. The tests are done at different venues which usually need to be rented out, there are three examiners, one caller, and someone to read the students kata manual (each student is required to write all their kata down, to create their own manual). The test can take a few hours.

I am currently cross training in Karate. A couple weeks ago, I was asked during class to demonstrate two kata. Note that this is a normal thing that sensei asks periodically of all the students. Last week, at the end of class, I was called up and given a brown belt. A few days later, I received an email stating that the brown belt testing fee was $50. (the belt was not that nice) At Black Belt, the testing fee goes up into the hundreds, yet all testing happens during regular class, with just the regular school instructors.

I know some Martial Artists pay fees in the thousands to test at Black Belt levels. I have found schools, where the testing fees are "low"... the first test is only $10, the fee doubles for each successive test as the student progresses, with 10 ranks between white and black, and 3 levels for each rank...

What kind of testing fees do you guys have where you train?
What does the student get for the fee?
How does the fee benefit the student? the school?

Every two months we have an official day strictly reserved for testing that takes place during what would be a usual session. You have to have attended at least two months, two sessions per week (or maybe one I don't quite recall) with each session being two hours to be eligible for testing. Our testing consists of a kata (I don't know the Korean equivalent of the word for TKD) that you must perform to a standard based on your current belt and age. The kata you perform is the one designated for your belt. If you are green belt or higher you have to test in sparring as well, except they test you on your ability to 'show off' different techniques - in each round you must perform one normal kick, a slide kick, a jump kick, a spin kick, and jump spin kick. After this you are asked a series of questions with answers you must know such as "what part of the foot do you kick with when performing this kick".

However, our fee is £35-£45 (somewhere around this area). This money covers your testing i.e. we pay for our testing, not the belt. If you fail, you don't get your money back :9

 

[KenpoMaster805]

In my kenpo class colored belts are 45 bucks then brown belt test is 145 bucks
The black belt is 245 bucks

 

[Buka]

Never had fees for testing. If you passed, you usually paid the five bucks for belt. For black belts there was no charge. I figured if you made it that far, you should take the five bucks and go celebrate.

Never had a separate class for blacks belts, they trained with everyone else. It's how they stayed fit. I'm not talking about the body type of a person, some of the guys were bigger than others, I'm referring to fitness, to training shape, to never getting lazy. A lazy black belt....kind of blows my mind when I come across one.

 

[skribs]

Never had fees for testing. If you passed, you usually paid the five bucks for belt. For black belts there was no charge. I figured if you made it that far, you should take the five bucks and go celebrate.

Never had a separate class for blacks belts, they trained with everyone else. It's how they stayed fit. I'm not talking about the body type of a person, some of the guys were bigger than others, I'm referring to fitness, to training shape, to never getting lazy. A lazy black belt....kind of blows my mind when I come across one.

My school has a separate class for belts and age.

• Little kids white & yellow
• Big kids white & yellow
• Kids purple & orange
• Adults white->orange
• Kids green
• Kids blue
• Kids red
• Adults green->red
• Kids black
• Adult black

 

[dvcochran]

Never had fees for testing. If you passed, you usually paid the five bucks for belt. For black belts there was no charge. I figured if you made it that far, you should take the five bucks and go celebrate.

Never had a separate class for blacks belts, they trained with everyone else. It's how they stayed fit. I'm not talking about the body type of a person, some of the guys were bigger than others, I'm referring to fitness, to training shape, to never getting lazy. A lazy black belt....kind of blows my mind when I come across one.

To be clear, we do not have black belt only normal, day to day classes. All black belt line up and workout with all the other color belts. In our schools, this means the black belts are on the floor a Lot longer than a white belt in a given class.
We have a black belt class twice a month, which is actually invited adult red belts and any black belt who wants to attend. It is for a number of reasons but mostly for advanced curriculum at above the 1st Dan level.

 

[dvcochran]

My school has a separate class for belts and age.

• Little kids white & yellow
• Big kids white & yellow
• Kids purple & orange
• Adults white->orange
• Kids green
• Kids blue
• Kids red
• Adults green->red
• Kids black
• Adult black

How long is each class?

 

[JR 137]

My school has a separate class for belts and age.

• Little kids white & yellow
• Big kids white & yellow
• Kids purple & orange
• Adults white->orange
• Kids green
• Kids blue
• Kids red
• Adults green->red
• Kids black
• Adult black

The ability to do that really depends on the number of students. My teacher would like to separate the various ranks a bit, but he doesn’t have the numbers to make it work. He might be able to separate beginner from higher colored belt kids, but it might hurt him too if people’s schedules don’t coincide with the dojo schedule.

We separate kids from adults. Most days the dojo is open, there’s 2 classes - kids followed by adults. One night there’s an adult class followed by black belts. Another night there’s a kata class that has a rank requirement rather than age, followed by an adult class with the same rank requirement. One black belt class every month is for higher ranked black belts, either 3rd and up or 4th and up. The minimum rank allowed in class that month changes between 3rd and 4th and depends on factors unbeknownst to me.

 

[JR 137]

To be clear, we do not have black belt only normal, day to day classes. All black belt line up and workout with all the other color belts. In our schools, this means the black belts are on the floor a Lot longer than a white belt in a given class.
We have a black belt class twice a month, which is actually invited adult red belts and any black belt who wants to attend. It is for a number of reasons but mostly for advanced curriculum at above the 1st Dan level.

To be clear, we do not have black belt only normal, day to day classes. All black belt line up and workout with all the other color belts. In our schools, this means the black belts are on the floor a Lot longer than a white belt in a given class.
We have a black belt class twice a month, which is actually invited adult red belts and any black belt who wants to attend. It is for a number of reasons but mostly for advanced curriculum at above the 1st Dan level.

To be clear, we do not have black belt only normal, day to day classes. All black belt line up and workout with all the other color belts. In our schools, this means the black belts are on the floor a Lot longer than a white belt in a given class.
We have a black belt class twice a month, which is actually invited adult red belts and any black belt who wants to attend. It is for a number of reasons but mostly for advanced curriculum at above the 1st Dan level.

That’s pretty much how ours is. There’s a black belt only class one night a week. I’ve been in vey, very few classes without any black belts there (except the nights where my class is followed by black belt class).

We are very black belt-heavy in our adult membership though, so that’s partially responsible. But even if there was another black belt or two classes, I’m pretty sure they’d still regularly be in the general adult classes too. It’s just our school’s culture.

Edit: Wow. Somehow quoted you 3 times, yet the edit only shows once, so I can’t delete the redundancy

 

[skribs]

How long is each class?

Kids are 50 minutes, adults (and kids black belts) are 1 hour.

 

[dvcochran]

The ability to do that really depends on the number of students. My teacher would like to separate the various ranks a bit, but he doesn’t have the numbers to make it work. He might be able to separate beginner from higher colored belt kids, but it might hurt him too if people’s schedules don’t coincide with the dojo schedule.

We separate kids from adults. Most days the dojo is open, there’s 2 classes - kids followed by adults. One night there’s an adult class followed by black belts. Another night there’s a kata class that has a rank requirement rather than age, followed by an adult class with the same rank requirement. One black belt class every month is for higher ranked black belts, either 3rd and up or 4th and up. The minimum rank allowed in class that month changes between 3rd and 4th and depends on factors unbeknownst to me.

We do not segregate classes at all. Any one can come to any class. The makeup of class as far as kids/adults will dictate how a class goes a bit. What does this mean? Not a ton. Everybody lines and works on kibon (gibon) together. As a person reaches their belt level technically they sit down until every belt level is satisfied. Depending on class size and assuming there are enough higher rank people we will break up into groups to work on poomsae. Depending on where the class goes next we may go into one/two/three steps or sparring.
A kid heavy class may be more physically exhausting drills than say a class that is all adults. The adults are going to get their workout to be sure. But it will be more intellectual/philosophical.

 

[dvcochran]

Kids are 50 minutes, adults (and kids black belts) are 1 hour.

All of our classes are 1 1/2 hours. If there is not a proceeding class we usually run long.

 

[Dirty Dog]

All of our classes are 1 1/2 hours. If there is not a proceeding class we usually run long.

We ran 60-90 minute classes, no restrictions on age/rank. And we tended to run long too, if someone didn't remind us.
I did hold classes that were invite only, and not regularly scheduled. Mostly because they were dealing with things that might be considered out of place when children are present. So the classes were adults and kids whose parents had given explicit permission for these classes.

 

[Buka]

To be clear, we do not have black belt only normal, day to day classes. All black belt line up and workout with all the other color belts. In our schools, this means the black belts are on the floor a Lot longer than a white belt in a given class.
We have a black belt class twice a month, which is actually invited adult red belts and any black belt who wants to attend. It is for a number of reasons but mostly for advanced curriculum at above the 1st Dan level.

This will likely sound completely nuts, as it flies in the face of conventional wisdom. I never had advanced techniques for black belts. Everyone one learned any and all techniques from the time they first started. Obviously, there were some physically complicated techniques that took time for some to be able to actually apply....and there were some that just weren't for everyone, like jumping head scissors, but everyone learned them anyway.

The best part about that was if and when a person made black belt he or she would have been drilling those techniques for five to eight years already.

I am in no way, shape or form saying this is the way to go for anyone else's curriculum, it's just what we always did. Seemed to work pretty good. Maybe it would have worked better if I had saved them for later in their careers, I don't know.

 

[skribs]

I did hold classes that were invite only, and not regularly scheduled. Mostly because they were dealing with things that might be considered out of place when children are present. So the classes were adults and kids whose parents had given explicit permission for these classes.

Out of curiosity, what would be considered out of place for children?

We don't do hand grabs in the kids classes at my school because the kids might hurt each other (or hurt themselves resisting). Is that what you mean?

This will likely sound completely nuts, as it flies in the face of conventional wisdom. I never had advanced techniques for black belts. Everyone one learned any and all techniques from the time they first started. Obviously, there were some physically complicated techniques that took time for some to be able to actually apply....and there were some that just weren't for everyone, like jumping head scissors, but everyone learned them anyway.

The best part about that was if and when a person made black belt he or she would have been drilling those techniques for five to eight years already.

I think you and I may have had this conversation in another thread before, but I can see a couple reasons why I wouldn't train this way.

1. Some techniques build on each other. Like going from side kick, to back kick, to hook kick, to jump spinning hook kick. By drilling the side kick they're starting to learn all 3, but they're not going to do back kick until a few months in and a hook kick until further down the line.
2. Information overload. I'd rather start with the higher percentage techniques.

Although this is something I was thinking about. At my old TKD school, we learned wrist grab escapes. At my new school, we learn wrist lock techniques to deal with those situations, and we don't actually teach the escapes. (I will sometimes teach them to the kids, who don't learn the wristlocks). I'm looking forward to when I open my own school, and one of the things I'm thinking is I would rather teach the escapes first. This would have the benefit of them learning a higher percentage move first, one they could actually apply without a long time of training. However, it would put them a few months behind in learning the actual wrist locks.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Out of curiosity, what would be considered out of place for children?

How about blunt discussions of sexual assault and/or options for killing someone? Probably not appropriate for an 8 year old. And something to get approval for from the parents of a 15 year old, too, I think.

We don't do hand grabs in the kids classes at my school because the kids might hurt each other (or hurt themselves resisting). Is that what you mean?

Grappling sessions can be an issue too, when working with kids. Especially if it's a small group, where you might be faced with the choice between a mixed gender pairing vs a large size/age/experience disparity.