Thoughts on belt testing fees

[skribs]

Some of these post really emphasize how the model of attaining a black belt has been manipulated and changed. Naturally, theses changes will be absorbed as the norm for the next generation. Not a good thing IMHO.

I started training in 1982 and testing for all Gup grades was $30. We have never changed the price. That includes a belt if there is a color change. We have only 9 Gup grades. Some Gups get stripes on the same belt color but there are No interim 'stars' or steps required for advancement. We go white, white/stripe, yellow, yellow/stripe, green, green/stripe, blue, red, red/2 stripes, red/3 stripes. No other interim steps.
If you think of the cost of a belt ($6.00 avg. quality), building/equipment cost for testing time involved, and put Any dollar value on the time spent testing people, $30 is an above average deal.
We/our GM is qualified to do certified Kukkiwon BB testings. That is a formality they require. Our GM charges $100 over the stated Kukkiwon fees for BB testings. They are listed on the Kukkiwon website. This includes a very nice embroidered belt (about $25 if memory serves).

On a much lower scale we do Moo Duk Kwan BB testing for the Pan/AM region. I have noticed the divide between Kukkiwon certification and MDK certification getting wider, at least in our area/situation.

Has your tuition price gone up during that time?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In my organization, the kyu rank belts are handled strictly by the dojos. The dojos I was a part of, and the school I run... we don't charge anything for belt tests. Some have an actual test, others just award the new belt when the student is ready. We don't even charge the student for the belt. (they are nothing fancy, just a generic belt of the appropriate color)

For Black Belt, the organization gets involved. They charge $100 for all Black Belt exams. That covers the students background check, and certificate. The tests are done at different venues which usually need to be rented out, there are three examiners, one caller, and someone to read the students kata manual (each student is required to write all their kata down, to create their own manual). The test can take a few hours.

I am currently cross training in Karate. A couple weeks ago, I was asked during class to demonstrate two kata. Note that this is a normal thing that sensei asks periodically of all the students. Last week, at the end of class, I was called up and given a brown belt. A few days later, I received an email stating that the brown belt testing fee was $50. (the belt was not that nice) At Black Belt, the testing fee goes up into the hundreds, yet all testing happens during regular class, with just the regular school instructors.

I know some Martial Artists pay fees in the thousands to test at Black Belt levels. I have found schools, where the testing fees are "low"... the first test is only $10, the fee doubles for each successive test as the student progresses, with 10 ranks between white and black, and 3 levels for each rank...

What kind of testing fees do you guys have where you train?
What does the student get for the fee?
How does the fee benefit the student? the school?

When done right, testing/belt fees are just a way of re-distributing the cost so it's fair (from one point of view) to all students. Personally, I prefer to charge for training. I think with associations there's a reasonable argument for a modest fee for the cost of maintaining tracking systems, but that's about it. If the testing takes a lot of time and incurs additional costs (like the black belt tests you outlined), that cost is somewhere in the fee structure. It's probably fairer to the slow-progressing students for that to show up as a test/belt fee, rather than as part of their monthly fee. In the end, which way they are distributed should make little difference.

If they're done right.

If they're done wrong - and there are as many wrong ways as right ways - they are a way of making money the student doesn't really pay attention to in advance. The student invests a lot of time and monthly fees, and then finds out they have to pay more for the test/belt, so they just cough it up. I'm not a fan of that approach.

When fees aren't disclosed in advance, that's dishonest business. I don't know if they were in your case - might just be someplace you never really paid attention to, and there's no way for us to know. Students should know BEFORE joining what the fee structure is (including testing fees). If it changes, there should be advance notice. Anything else is just not "right", in my book.

 

[dvcochran]

Has your tuition price gone up during that time?

Very little. It works out to $50 at one school and about $60 at the other. Once is no contract the other requires an annual contract.

 

[skribs]

When fees aren't disclosed in advance, that's dishonest business

What's your feeling on if the fees aren't specifically hidden, but also aren't discussed until they're relevant or if someone asks?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I can't tell what you things cost at my first TKD school (because I was a kid and didn't even realize my parents paid for me to go to TKD), but I remember our belt system. 7 colors before black, each belt color had the solid belt and then 3 stripes. We used tape stripes around the belt tip. So white belt with 3 yellow stripes, then you get your yellow belt, then 3 orange stripes and then an orange belt, and so on. White - yellow - orange - purple - green - blue - red - brown - black. It took 28 tests to get your black belt!

Around the time I got my green belt, they changed to a new system. You got the solid belt, then a belt with a white stripe down the middle, and then a belt with a black stripe, and then the next color. I don't know if they still did the tape stripes for white belt, but that may not have had any intermediate ranks. At that point it would have probably been 19 tests or so.

I found on the KarateMart site you could order belts of basically any color with any color stripe. So you could in theory have something ridiculous like:

1. Solid white belt
2. White with yellow stripe
3. White with purple stripe
4. White with orange stripe
5. White with green stripe
6. White with blue stripe
7. White with red stripe
8. White with brown stripe
9. White with black stripe
10. Yellow with white stripe
11. Solid yellow stripe
12. Yellow with purple stripe
13. Etc. a bunch
14. Brown with black stripe
15. Black with white stripe
16. Black with yellow stripe
17. Etc. a bit more
18. Black with brown stripe
19. Solid black belt

In that case, it would only take 81 tests to get your black belt.

If nothing else, it would be a great rank structure for April Fool's Day.

I'm going to do that. Then I'll just test every month. And I'll change the belt-to-rank assignment once a year (replace stripes with tips, use chevrons on the uniform, maybe mix in a new color one year...). Pretty soon, nobody will have any idea what rank anyone is.

Now I just need more than 5 students to make this work.

 

[skribs]

Very little. It works out to $50 at one school and about $60 at the other. Once is no contract the other requires an annual contract.

How has your school survived against inflation for almost 40 years?

 

[dvcochran]

Yes. I'm 99.99% certain they are official KKW grades. I've gotten mixed reports on what the costs are. I've heard $300 here, but other places have said it's only $100.

If it has not changed the fees on somewhere on the Kukkiwon site. It is hard to navigate.

 

[skribs]

I'm going to do that. Then I'll just test every month. And I'll change the belt-to-rank assignment once a year (replace stripes with tips, use chevrons on the uniform, maybe mix in a new color one year...). Pretty soon, nobody will have any idea what rank anyone is.

Now I just need more than 5 students to make this work.

Or...and hear me out...you combine them all together and make a rank structure so complicated that even testing every month, it takes 40 years to get your black belt!

 

[marques]

Each school or organization charges differently. Some are more profitable, or profit oriented, than others. I would not mind much about. Your only choice is to pay or leave, isn’t it?

I was charged a bit (€10-25?) for juri evaluation and a book (sort of). Black belt was more extensive, but harder examination and included a blazer and the belt.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What's your feeling on if the fees aren't specifically hidden, but also aren't discussed until they're relevant or if someone asks?

I think they should be available before people sign up. It's part of what people should know. They ask what the training costs, they should be told (including those ancillary costs). Imagine if your phone company popped up with some new fees after you'd been signed up for several months - fees they knew about, but didn't bother to tell you in advance, and only told you prior to Christmas that there is a fee for calling family on the 25th. It's something you expected to be doing when you signed up for the service, and didn't know there would be an additional fee for it.

 

[dvcochran]

How has your school survived against inflation for almost 40 years?

When I started it was $35/month. I would have to do the math but it has probably went up just enough to keep pace with inflation, for us. There were certain times in the business curve (popularity factor)when we could have spiked prices but never have. I feel there is some balancing on the back side of a spiked curve that results in dollars. Having property ownership creates a flattening of cost over time. No incremental increases in rent for example.

I get it, but I am still not super jazzed about contractual obligations for a recreation. Just calling a spade a spade. Does it make the viability of the business aspect much easier to navigate? Certainly. And there is great value for the student in knowing the dojo/dojang is solvent and stable. But how many people walk in really worrying about things like that?

I am an engineer by trade so my mind says everything has to be tested and validated. A schools program and teacher/instructor is no different. If the program is worth it's salt, it should be able to stand on it's own and generate revenue to support itself. Yes, there are tons of external factors and 'what ifs' but at the end of the day it is really that simple.

 

[skribs]

They ask what the training costs, they should be told

This was the question I was asking. Does everyone need to be told in a standard speel "this is our fee schedule"? Or is it that you need to be open and answer the question when asked?

 

[Flying Crane]

Yes... there were about 30 ranks from white to black. You paid a $150 initiation fee, when you started (got your white belt), white belt 1 was the $10, white belt 2 was $20, yellow $40, yellow 1 $80... At some point they stopped doubling... but you were charged $2500 for shodan, $3500 for nidan...

Wow. I began kenpo in 1984, our ranking was white, orange, purple blue green, three levels of brown, black. There were no intermediate or half steps between those. There were no testing fees below black, but I think perhaps we paid for our own belt, something like $5. Black belt had a fee, my memory is foggy on it, but either $50 or $150 sounds right. I was the only person my instructor ranked to black, so I believe he did not have a formal policy on that. I think he just made a decision for the moment, and it seemed fair to me. But we were a very relaxed school in that regard. Monthly fees were something like $25 or $30. I’m guessing inflation would increase those fees, those prices in the 1980s would not hold up today, even in the small town in Wisconsin where I grew up. Certainly they would not hold up in San Francisco.

 

[dvcochran]

I think they should be available before people sign up. It's part of what people should know. They ask what the training costs, they should be told (including those ancillary costs). Imagine if your phone company popped up with some new fees after you'd been signed up for several months - fees they knew about, but didn't bother to tell you in advance, and only told you prior to Christmas that there is a fee for calling family on the 25th. It's something you expected to be doing when you signed up for the service, and didn't know there would be an additional fee for it.

Can you give a description of what you call ancillary costs? We try to be very transparent but I have learned that no matter how thorough you are on the front end with giving people the information, sometimes it just does not get fully received.

A common example for us is sparring gear. It is not included in signing up. We do however have an ample amount of hogus (chest protectors) and head gear that are shared. I have more than a few people ask me 'where the rest of their gear was' as if that was part of enrollment. And a few that have gotten upset about it. Can you workout without it? Sure. But I do not recommend it and most people figure it out pretty quick.
We keep lots of gear in stock and I make sure we are always competitive on our pricing but have zero problem with someone getting their own.
In today's world many people would prefer to have their own gear for hygiene purposes. This is becoming a more conscious slope for a school. I am about at the point where I am going to have sanitizing wipes at the dojang and require everyone to wipe down their gear Before every use. That way everybody sees that it has been done.
Sounds kind of silly I agree, but I feel we are at the point where it is a required formality.

 

[Flying Crane]

This was the question I was asking. Does everyone need to be told in a standard speel "this is our fee schedule"? Or is it that you need to be open and answer the question when asked?

All fees should be presented when someone signs up. Not “hiding” them but not disclosing them unless asked, when typical people may not realize they need to ask, is hiding them.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Or...and hear me out...you combine them all together and make a rank structure so complicated that even testing every month, it takes 40 years to get your black belt!

Well, that's rather the point, isn't it? They get to brown belt, get their pink tip, and next year I reassign "pink tip" to mean what yellow belt used to mean. They get ready to test for black, and I tell them they're eligible to test for chartreuse.

 

[Flying Crane]

In my area, TKD has a lot of tests. But the thing is most students are on the “black belt plan” where they pay one price for everything up to and including the black belt test (not uniforms though). So if the price is $4k, you pay $4k regardless of if it takes you 1 year or 100 years. And all the tests are included. That’s a good deal if you take 4 years or more, but not so much when they push you through in 2 or so.
.

Anything can be abused, but I think this approach is particularly ripe. There is an incentive to get the student to a point where they are paying fees again. So a strong temptation exists to promote faster than the student is ready or merits. Get a black belt wrapped around that kid so we can start charging fees again. Tell his parents how much of a gifted protege he is, to justify a black belt in a year and a half or two years.

And now we've got one more lousy black belt who doesn’t deserve it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This was the question I was asking. Does everyone need to be told in a standard speel "this is our fee schedule"? Or is it that you need to be open and answer the question when asked?

If I had testing fees, I'd probably say something like, "Classes are $40/month, and there's an additional fee for testing at each rank. Those fees are in the student manual. You're welcome to look at a copy while you're watching class." Most folks probably aren't going to be very concerned with it, and would likely ask what the fee is, so: "Early test fees are $X, and rise slightly with each rank. You'd expect to test no more quickly than about Y often, so that's about how often you'd be eligible to pay this. Later tests are further apart, so fewer than once a year."

(I'm using more common testing timelines, rather than my own - mine would be no more than once a year for any test, under normal circumstances.)

 

[skribs]

Well, that's rather the point, isn't it? They get to brown belt, get their pink tip, and next year I reassign "pink tip" to mean what yellow belt used to mean. They get ready to test for black, and I tell them they're eligible to test for chartreuse.

Well I was thinking you could combine the stripe system I mentioned with the tips. So white, 5 tips and then white/yellow. Then 5 tips and then white/purple. And so on. Even better, different colors of tips (5 yellow tips, 5 purple tips, etc).

And after all those combinations, you get the vertical striped belts, like the BJJ red + white belt, but in every color combination. Then belts that are half-and-half horizontal stripe. Then belts that are checkered.

Oh, and we could add thickness in, too. After you've gotten your brown and black checkered belt with a full rainbow of tips...it's time for the thick white belt. And start from scratch.

 

[skribs]

Well, that's rather the point, isn't it? They get to brown belt, get their pink tip, and next year I reassign "pink tip" to mean what yellow belt used to mean. They get ready to test for black, and I tell them they're eligible to test for chartreuse.

So just have a rolling curriculum and have it roll faster than you can test. Tests every 3 months, curriculum rolls every 2.