Thoughts on belt testing fees

[Gerry Seymour]

Can you give a description of what you call ancillary costs? We try to be very transparent but I have learned that no matter how thorough you are on the front end with giving people the information, sometimes it just does not get fully received.

A common example for us is sparring gear. It is not included in signing up. We do however have an ample amount of hogus (chest protectors) and head gear that are shared. I have more than a few people ask me 'where the rest of their gear was' as if that was part of enrollment. And a few that have gotten upset about it. Can you workout without it? Sure. But I do not recommend it and most people figure it out pretty quick.
We keep lots of gear in stock and I make sure we are always competitive on our pricing but have zero problem with someone getting their own.
In today's world many people would prefer to have their own gear for hygiene purposes. This is becoming a more conscious slope for a school. I am about at the point where I am going to have sanitizing wipes at the dojang and require everyone to wipe down their gear Before every use. That way everybody sees that it has been done.
Sounds kind of silly I agree, but I feel we are at the point where it is a required formality.

So, I'll talk about my own program, since that's easy for me.

Students need a black dogi. I don't require it up front, and will allow them to train in whatever for the first few classes. After 2-3 weeks, it's time to show up in a uniform. If they already have a white one (and many do, since that's what the Karate classes wear), I'm okay with that uniform (with whatever patches if they're still training) until they have been around a few months. I've never set a specific standard on this, and if pressed would say they absolutely must have a uniform (white or black or something else conservative) by the time they finish the Foundation (about 4-10 weeks) and a black one before they test for yellow (about a year).

They'll also need basic sparring gear. For starters, that just means something for their hands. A few months in, add the mouthguard. Much later, they'll be required to have shin guards, but that's a ways off.

All of this they can order through me, or not. I prefer they order through me for consistency and quality control, but I make no money on the sales.

So, my spiel to them is something like this, "Classes are $40 per month - $80 if you want to also train Karate. You'll also need a uniform pretty quickly, though you can start without one. If you buy that from me, it'll cost between $20 and $45, depending what you pick, and you're welcome to buy elsewhere as long as you meet our standards. You'll need sparring equipment, and the cheap stuff is fine for starters. You can borrow gloves here for a few weeks, but you'll want to wear your own sweaty gloves pretty soon - the cheapest stuff is under $20. There's more gear to buy later, and like with the uniforms and gloves, I get a discount on them and pass that entire discount on to you. I make nothing on gear sales."

That last part will change at some point, and I'll be saying, "I get a discount and pass most of that discount on to you. We appreciate the couple of extra dollars we make if you buy from us, but that's not really what we're here for."

 

[Gerry Seymour]

All fees should be presented when someone signs up. Not “hiding” them but not disclosing them unless asked, when typical people may not realize they need to ask, is hiding them.

This is kind of my thinking. We can hide fees without meaning to. I don't go into detail, but I do point out there are some costs, and try to give some idea where to find them or what they are.

My first NGA instructor just kept fees posted on the wall beside the door. All visitors and students could look at them under the 8.5" x 11" sign that said "DOJO FEES" in big type.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well I was thinking you could combine the stripe system I mentioned with the tips. So white, 5 tips and then white/yellow. Then 5 tips and then white/purple. And so on. Even better, different colors of tips (5 yellow tips, 5 purple tips, etc).

And after all those combinations, you get the vertical striped belts, like the BJJ red + white belt, but in every color combination. Then belts that are half-and-half horizontal stripe. Then belts that are checkered.

Oh, and we could add thickness in, too. After you've gotten your brown and black checkered belt with a full rainbow of tips...it's time for the thick white belt. And start from scratch.

That's genius. I can order belts in 1.5", 1.75", and 2". If they wash and shrink the belt, they drop back down an entire set of ranks!!

 

[skribs]

That's genius. I can order belts in 1.5", 1.75", and 2". If they wash and shrink the belt, they drop back down an entire set of ranks!!

If you really want to start being obtuse, we can even use a different brand as a soft reset. Beginners get Mooto, intermediate get Century, and Advanced get Fuji.

Then there's the obvious different shades. Not just red belt, but also crimson, cinnabar, ruby, scarlet...

Oh, and different lengths relative to your height. If you're a size 4 belt, then advanced is a size 5 belt. Longer tails means higher rank. And if you gain or lose weight and your tail length changes, you have to start over.

 

[dvcochran]

This was the question I was asking. Does everyone need to be told in a standard speel "this is our fee schedule"? Or is it that you need to be open and answer the question when asked?

Both. Always.

 

[drop bear]

Bear, how do y'all do it? Do you even do belts?

Yeah. We do jits. Otherwise there are mma or kickboxing rankings that exist. We don't do them though.

 

[drop bear]

This was the question I was asking. Does everyone need to be told in a standard speel "this is our fee schedule"? Or is it that you need to be open and answer the question when asked?

You would think so legally.

 

[skribs]

You would think so legally.

Let me expand on what I mean.

Scenario 1
Master: Welcome to our dojang. Our tuition is $100/month, or you can sign up for auto payment and it is $95. Belt tests will be $40 for beginners, $50 for intermediate, $60 for red belts, and $700 for your 1st dan test. Students will get their first uniform for free, but additional uniforms are a $50 charge for color belt uniforms, or $125 charge for black belt uniforms. Sparring gear must be purchased at Purple Belt, it will cost $180 for a beginner set of gear for boys, or $170 for a beginner set for girls, since girls don't require a groin cup. Black belts will purchase a weapon bag and weapons totaling $60.

Scenario 2
Master: Welcome to our dojang. Our tuition is $100/month, but there will be other fees that come up from time to time when you need to do a belt test or purchase new equipment.
Parent: How much is a belt test?
Master: They start at $40 and get a little more expensive at the higher belts, but then the black belt test is $700.

In both scenarios you're honest, but in Scenario 1 you basically overload them.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Let me expand on what I mean.

Scenario 1
Master: Welcome to our dojang. Our tuition is $100/month, or you can sign up for auto payment and it is $95. Belt tests will be $40 for beginners, $50 for intermediate, $60 for red belts, and $700 for your 1st dan test. Students will get their first uniform for free, but additional uniforms are a $50 charge for color belt uniforms, or $125 charge for black belt uniforms. Sparring gear must be purchased at Purple Belt, it will cost $180 for a beginner set of gear for boys, or $170 for a beginner set for girls, since girls don't require a groin cup. Black belts will purchase a weapon bag and weapons totaling $60.

Scenario 2
Master: Welcome to our dojang. Our tuition is $100/month, but there will be other fees that come up from time to time when you need to do a belt test or purchase new equipment.
Parent: How much is a belt test?
Master: They start at $40 and get a little more expensive at the higher belts, but then the black belt test is $700.

In both scenarios you're honest, but in Scenario 1 you basically overload them.

I’m okay with either. The first is a bit too much to process. The second is better, especially if it were to include a mention of where the fees can be found.

 

[wab25]

Let me expand on what I mean.

Scenario 1
Master: Welcome to our dojang. Our tuition is $100/month, or you can sign up for auto payment and it is $95. Belt tests will be $40 for beginners, $50 for intermediate, $60 for red belts, and $700 for your 1st dan test. Students will get their first uniform for free, but additional uniforms are a $50 charge for color belt uniforms, or $125 charge for black belt uniforms. Sparring gear must be purchased at Purple Belt, it will cost $180 for a beginner set of gear for boys, or $170 for a beginner set for girls, since girls don't require a groin cup. Black belts will purchase a weapon bag and weapons totaling $60.

Scenario 2
Master: Welcome to our dojang. Our tuition is $100/month, but there will be other fees that come up from time to time when you need to do a belt test or purchase new equipment.
Parent: How much is a belt test?
Master: They start at $40 and get a little more expensive at the higher belts, but then the black belt test is $700.

In both scenarios you're honest, but in Scenario 1 you basically overload them.

I would take the info in Scenario 1, and put it on an info sheet. Then when you chat with folks, use #2 above, but hand them the info sheet with the fee schedule. Especially since you are talking about a school with 100 or more students.

In my school, things are much simpler:

We charge $40 per month, which all goes to rent the space. No contracts, pay as you go. You need to join the national organization which is $60 per year. The complicated part is that on the month you pay the organization, you get to skip the dojo dues. No testing fees until black belt... no test until black belt... every class is a "test." When you are ready you get the belt. At black belt, the organization charges $100 which includes your back ground screening, all black belt tests are $100.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Let me expand on what I mean.

Scenario 1
Master: Welcome to our dojang. Our tuition is $100/month, or you can sign up for auto payment and it is $95. Belt tests will be $40 for beginners, $50 for intermediate, $60 for red belts, and $700 for your 1st dan test. Students will get their first uniform for free, but additional uniforms are a $50 charge for color belt uniforms, or $125 charge for black belt uniforms. Sparring gear must be purchased at Purple Belt, it will cost $180 for a beginner set of gear for boys, or $170 for a beginner set for girls, since girls don't require a groin cup. Black belts will purchase a weapon bag and weapons totaling $60.

Scenario 2
Master: Welcome to our dojang. Our tuition is $100/month, but there will be other fees that come up from time to time when you need to do a belt test or purchase new equipment.
Parent: How much is a belt test?
Master: They start at $40 and get a little more expensive at the higher belts, but then the black belt test is $700.

In both scenarios you're honest, but in Scenario 1 you basically overload them.

Im fine with number two specifically because you mention the extra fees and what theyre based around. Ideally, you would say the second ome, and have a sheet with all the information from scenario one that you inform them of before they sign up. Then they can decide if they want to look at it or not.

 

[dvcochran]

I would take the info in Scenario 1, and put it on an info sheet. Then when you chat with folks, use #2 above, but hand them the info sheet with the fee schedule. Especially since you are talking about a school with 100 or more students.

In my school, things are much simpler:

We charge $40 per month, which all goes to rent the space. No contracts, pay as you go. You need to join the national organization which is $60 per year. The complicated part is that on the month you pay the organization, you get to skip the dojo dues. No testing fees until black belt... no test until black belt... every class is a "test." When you are ready you get the belt. At black belt, the organization charges $100 which includes your back ground screening, all black belt tests are $100.

Just curious, may I ask which organization you join?

 

[Tez3]

since girls don't require a groin cup.

They need a chest guard though.

 

[skribs]

They need a chest guard though.

It's World Taekwondo rules. Everyone needs a chestguard.

Although that's an awkward question I've had to answer with "ask your parents." The question is "why doesn't she need a groin cup?"

 

[JR 137]

Anything can be abused, but I think this approach is particularly ripe. There is an incentive to get the student to a point where they are paying fees again. So a strong temptation exists to promote faster than the student is ready or merits. Get a black belt wrapped around that kid so we can start charging fees again. Tell his parents how much of a gifted protege he is, to justify a black belt in a year and a half or two years.

And now we've got one more lousy black belt who doesn’t deserve it.

I’ve told this story about a local McDojo several times, but it definitely needs repeating here...

There’s a TKD dojang a few blocks away from the academic school I used to teach at. Quite a few of my students trained there. They only have black belt plans; no monthly tuition rate available (but you can finance the plan monthly for a fee). It was around $4k. Tuition, fees, tests, belts, etc. we’re all included. Basically everything besides uniforms, sparring gear, weapons. They say the average time to 1st dan is 5-6 years for kids. $4k in tuition and testing fees for 5 years is a pretty good price in my area.

Most of my students who trained there were black belts. I taught grades 5-8. I think the longest any of them took to make black belt was 2 years. Somehow they were all hard working and talented students who progressed way faster than the average. Sure. Half of those kids could barely walk and chew gum at the same time. A few did demos at our school’s talent show. To put it nicely, there wasn’t much MA talent.

The McDojo has a great racket going - tell them they’re getting a great deal, then tell them they’re progressing way faster than normal and stroke their egos. Guess what happens when they pass that black belt test? The belt itself costs $300 (fine print says test, not actual belt). And then it’s on to the 2nd dan plan. Average time is 3 years. Somehow all those prodigies did it in a year. New belt, new fee, and new plan.

Like used car salesmen say - “there’s an a$$ for every seat.”

 

[Flying Crane]

I’ve told this story about a local McDojo several times, but it definitely needs repeating here...

There’s a TKD dojang a few blocks away from the academic school I used to teach at. Quite a few of my students trained there. They only have black belt plans; no monthly tuition rate available (but you can finance the plan monthly for a fee). It was around $4k. Tuition, fees, tests, belts, etc. we’re all included. Basically everything besides uniforms, sparring gear, weapons. They say the average time to 1st dan is 5-6 years for kids. $4k in tuition and testing fees for 5 years is a pretty good price in my area.

Most of my students who trained there were black belts. I taught grades 5-8. I think the longest any of them took to make black belt was 2 years. Somehow they were all hard working and talented students who progressed way faster than the average. Sure. Half of those kids could barely walk and chew gum at the same time. A few did demos at our school’s talent show. To put it nicely, there wasn’t much MA talent.

The McDojo has a great racket going - tell them they’re getting a great deal, then tell them they’re progressing way faster than normal and stroke their egos. Guess what happens when they pass that black belt test? The belt itself costs $300 (fine print says test, not actual belt). And then it’s on to the 2nd dan plan. Average time is 3 years. Somehow all those prodigies did it in a year. New belt, new fee, and new plan.

Like used car salesmen say - “there’s an a$$ for every seat.”

As I am fond of saying, jeezuz. Just...Jeezuz.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Something to add-while it's not a dealbreaker for me if a dojo/school has belt testing fees, from the student perspective I'd much rather that be a part of the monthly fees. Even if I end up paying more in the long run.

The reason for that is consistency. I have a monthly budget that I rely on, so I want to know signing up to something how much something costs. Let's say that I budget for a school that's $100 per month, with testing fees of $100, approximately every four months. That comes out to about $125 per month. So in reality I'd be putting that extra 25 away anyway. Now if I'm ready to test in 3 months, I all of a sudden have to come up with the extra 25 in my budget (which for me is not a big deal, but for some it's an extra hassle), or delay my own testing for an extra month to match my budget. Which has nothing to do with my martial arts ability. If it takes me 5 or 6 months, that's extra money that I put away, which I don't know if I can take out, or should leave in case of a future month where I get ready to test early. Add in extra times or increasing rates as the belt level increases, and it gets more complicated for my budget.

I would assume this variation would also hurt the business as well, since it makes the income more varied, unless they are charging enough extra to add in a buffer.

I also feel like martial arts is alone in this. Essentially the idea behind belts (besides pride and bragging rights), is that every new belt indicates you're more advanced and that you're able to handle more advanced materials. When I played piano, my piano teacher didn't require me to pay for a test to start learning more advanced songs. With bouldering, in places that separate between beginner/intermediate/advanced, you don't have to pay to get evaluated to go on one of the higher levels. The lyra gym near me has different level classes too, and the instructor there from what I understand just informs you when you're ready. It seems unfair to pay for a service/training, and then be limited from more advanced aspects of that training based on your financial concerns when you're already paying for that training.

 

[dvcochran]

Something to add-while it's not a dealbreaker for me if a dojo/school has belt testing fees, from the student perspective I'd much rather that be a part of the monthly fees. Even if I end up paying more in the long run.

The reason for that is consistency. I have a monthly budget that I rely on, so I want to know signing up to something how much something costs. Let's say that I budget for a school that's $100 per month, with testing fees of $100, approximately every four months. That comes out to about $125 per month. So in reality I'd be putting that extra 25 away anyway. Now if I'm ready to test in 3 months, I all of a sudden have to come up with the extra 25 in my budget (which for me is not a big deal, but for some it's an extra hassle), or delay my own testing for an extra month to match my budget. Which has nothing to do with my martial arts ability. If it takes me 5 or 6 months, that's extra money that I put away, which I don't know if I can take out, or should leave in case of a future month where I get ready to test early. Add in extra times or increasing rates as the belt level increases, and it gets more complicated for my budget.

I would assume this variation would also hurt the business as well, since it makes the income more varied, unless they are charging enough extra to add in a buffer.

I also feel like martial arts is alone in this. Essentially the idea behind belts (besides pride and bragging rights), is that every new belt indicates you're more advanced and that you're able to handle more advanced materials. When I played piano, my piano teacher didn't require me to pay for a test to start learning more advanced songs. With bouldering, in places that separate between beginner/intermediate/advanced, you don't have to pay to get evaluated to go on one of the higher levels. The lyra gym near me has different level classes too, and the instructor there from what I understand just informs you when you're ready. It seems unfair to pay for a service/training, and then be limited from more advanced aspects of that training based on your financial concerns when you're already paying for that training.

This is a direct marketing scheme hard at work. It is not just in MA's but you dangle a carrot and people want to take a bite. One of the best things I like about my GM's way of teaching is that he never limits or segregates classes. Does it make it harder on the teacher(s)? You bet. But there are many more pro's than cons in my opinion.

I would say you are the exception, not the rule in your testing time logic. More people take longer to test than the minimum test time. So you could conceivably bank one testing cost in a few belts.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I would say you are the exception, not the rule in your testing time logic. More people take longer to test than the minimum test time. So you could conceivably bank one testing cost in a few belts.

I'm not suggesting I normally test early-it took me over 15 years to get black belt in my main (or former main I guess) art. Average seemed to be around 5-10 years. In other arts I've gotten it earlier than others-but I've never trained anywhere where there was a "minimum", so much as an average time.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

This is a direct marketing scheme hard at work. It is not just in MA's but you dangle a carrot and people want to take a bite. One of the best things I like about my GM's way of teaching is that he never limits or segregates classes. Does it make it harder on the teacher(s)? You bet. But there are many more pro's than cons in my opinion.

I think there are certain things where having advanced classes works. Math and computer science, as the most obvious examples.