this is a sad state of affairs

[Cyriacus]

Which is the "ITF proper"? ITF-V, ITF-C or ITF-NK?

NK tends to be better at Striking, but C tends to have better SD.
V I would not recommend. Theyre a great Sport, but can be lacking in other areas.

PLEASE note that there are obviously exceptions.

Do the other ITFs have a similar by-law or are they more open to multi-organisation membership? <<<

I have no idea and ITFV supposedly passed this in 2009.

I started Boxing under ITFC - I asked Permission first, and They approved with encouragements.
I have heard of other Branches not liking the idea one bit though.

 

[miguksaram]

Firstly, ITF or WTF, it's all Taekwondo. Secondly, the ITF has it's own problems with sparring, yes they allow punches to the head, but then they also restrict contact, look back at the video you posted, there's a hook kick within the first minute and it's like a slap to the face. KO is not a valid form of victory in most ITF competitions and can result in instant disqualification. For me, this is how I believe ALL Taekwondo sparring should be...

Notice that there still isn't punching to the head, instead there are some takedowns and, more importantly to me, low kicks.

Don't get me wrong, I practice ITF Taekwondo, but not for sport.

Also the Judo analogy earlier, Glenn was right when he said about de-emphasizing groundwork, but also being able to grab the leg to throw from a primary attack is illegal, as is taking someone down with an armlock/strangle. Judo sport, is different to Judo the Art.

Some very nice matches. This looks very similar to Taekkyon matches.

 

[miguksaram]

Now this is fun -

Looks like MMA had a bastard child with TKD. I like it.

 

[ETinCYQX]

I really badly want to try that HapKiDo sparring ruleset. Looks like a ton of fun.

 

[puunui]

It's like I point out in the last paragraph of my post, it's all good if you bond with your instructor and become friends, but that's not a requirement. And at the end of the day, if you're paying for martial arts lessons you are ultimately a customer. He's a seller, you're a buyer.

I don't consider my teachers my "friends", either, except one, but we are more like brothers than friends. Or at least that is how he describes our relationship. I also do not see my teachers as a seller, anymore than I see my father as a seller. I also do not see myself as a customer either.

Having said that, all of my martial arts instructors who I take more than the style they teach, and most are fine with it. Only one, a long time ago, was not. But I think he may have changed his feelings on that because I understand he later studied more than one style simultaneously himself.

 

[puunui]

The USTF which was with the ITF headed by Sr. GM Sereff one of 7 General Choi promoted to GM was affiliated with the ITF thru most of 2002 until after the NK split.

Who are the seven that General Choi promoted to grandmaster? And is grandmaster 9th Dan?

 

[puunui]

Also, I have to point out that most head kicks that I see in WTF competition don't land in a way that produces a knockout. Usually guys just walk through it and keep fighting.

I have a student who started learning from me when he was twenty. When he was about 27 or so, he had an identity crisis of sorts, quit class, got divorced from his childhood sweetheart wife, started drinking in bars and in the process got into over 100 fights all over the place. He knocked out almost all of them with a spin hook kick in the head. He is short, 5'4" or so, but is flexible so it is relatively easy for him to simply spin in a small space and land the hook kick. Now he is 40, back with his wife, back to training, runs his own club, doesn't get into fights anymore, and I have hopes that he will become a national and hopefully international referee once USAT gets rolling again. In WTF international level competition, it is difficult to land a knockout shot because both are trained, but in a self defense situation, you often can, especially since no one is expecting it.

 

[SPX]

The USTF which was with the ITF headed by Sr. GM Sereff one of 7 General Choi promoted to GM was affiliated with the ITF thru most of 2002 until after the NK split. It is found throughout the USA and headquartered in Colorado.

Okay, thanks for the heads up. That would be the group my old school was a member of. For some reason I thought the "US" stood for Utah State and not United States.

 

[SPX]

I don't consider my teachers my "friends", either, except one, but we are more like brothers than friends. Or at least that is how he describes our relationship. I also do not see my teachers as a seller, anymore than I see my father as a seller. I also do not see myself as a customer either.

I guess I just don't get into the whole idea of a guy deserving reverence and hero worship because he can throw some punches and kicks, and that's basically the direction a lot of martial arts orgs steer you into. I definitely don't in any way equate my martial arts instructors to with father.

Process goes: I want martial arts skills-->I look in the phone book to find a school-->I visit schools to find one that suits my needs-->I find an instructor who seems cool and who runs his class in an agreeable fashion-->I give him money in exchange for lessons to obtain the aforementioned skills.

If we develop some sort of a relationship with each other, then I'm all for it. But until things get personal like that I just look at it as a cash-for-commodities kind of exchange.

 

[puunui]

I guess I just don't get into the whole idea of a guy deserving reverence and hero worship because he can throw some punches and kicks, and that's basically the direction a lot of martial arts orgs steer you into. I definitely don't in any way equate my martial arts instructors to with father.

I also don't think that I revere or hero worship my teacher or my father either. But maybe you will at least treat your teachers as you do your father. May I ask, do you get along with your parents?

 

[dancingalone]

I guess I just don't get into the whole idea of a guy deserving reverence and hero worship because he can throw some punches and kicks, and that's basically the direction a lot of martial arts orgs steer you into. I definitely don't in any way equate my martial arts instructors to with father.

What is it like in your Wado-ryu karate class? I have found that traditional Japanese martial arts frequently are conducted with the type of respectful distance between teacher and student you object to. It's not necessarily meant to keep the teacher in an advantageous position for possibly sinister reasons. It can make sense in the context of helping everyone learn where everyone has an initial starting role in relation to each other and this changes over time as students gain experience, skill, and perspective.

 

[SPX]

I also don't think that I revere or hero worship my teacher or my father either. But maybe you will at least treat your teachers as you do your father. May I ask, do you get along with your parents?

I treat people with the level of respect that I feel they give to others. As I related the other day in another thread, one of the main reasons I am no longer with the ITF is that I had serious problems with my instructor. He would give an outward show of respect, but it was obvious he was completely consumed by his own ego--he loved lecture people, loved the sound of his own voice, would treat adults like children, and obviously cared nothing for the thoughts or opinions of others. He never listened to anything anyone would say and loved to interrupt people so that he could continue on with whatever it is that he wanted to talk about. So I didn't respect him and ultimately walked away to find greener pastures.

If an instructor, on the other hand, shows himself to be worthy of respect because he has the proper traits as a human being then I will certainly respect him.

As for my parents, I'm cool with them today, but there was some static growing up.

 

[SPX]

What is it like in your Wado-ryu karate class? I have found that traditional Japanese martial arts frequently are conducted with the type of respectful distance between teacher and student you object to. It's not necessarily meant to keep the teacher in an advantageous position for possibly sinister reasons. It can make sense in the context of helping everyone learn where everyone has an initial starting role in relation to each other and this changes over time as students gain experience, skill, and perspective.

The wado class is definitely very formal. In fact, the old Japanese guy who founded the school in 1970, Sensei Osaka, has never spoken a word to me. You use the word "distance" and that really does describe him. From everything that I've seen so far, on the days that he leads class, he shows up after the warm ups have begun, stretches out on his own, then jumps in to run the class through whatever activities are planned for the day, and immediately bounces out the door once class is over. He never stays around to chit chat with any of the students and he has never instructed me personally in any way.

The black belt who has been my primary instructor, a guy named Mark, usually either runs the class on Tuesdays and Thursdays in conjunction with Sensei Osaka, or runs the class by himself. He's pretty cool. There is still a sort of icy distance between us, but I think part of that has to do with just the kind of guy he is. He's kind of a weird cat who seems to never get overly emotional about anything. I've barely seen him crack a smile, but he doesn't get frustrated or angry, either. All in all, he kind of strikes me as being emotionally flatlined--stoic even--but I get a benevolent vibe from him.

The rest of the students in the class--most of which are black belts--are cool guys.

But the atmosphere is definitely more formal. People talk in hushed tones. There's not a lot of joking around going on in the dojo. The setting itself is fairly austere and gives off a traditional energy.

 

[dancingalone]

The wado class is definitely very formal. In fact, the old Japanese guy who founded the school in 1970, Sensei Osaka, has never spoken a word to me. You use the word "distance" and that really does describe him.

....
But the atmosphere is definitely more formal. People talk in hushed tones. There's not a lot of joking around going on in the dojo. The setting itself is fairly austere and gives off a traditional energy.

I run my Goju-ryu dojo in a similar fashion. It is how I was taught myself. I never got to ask my sensei any questions in class coming up the ranks because he was so old school - of course that might be why he never really had that many students last too long. Once you made it to BB, he started opening up a bit more to you. I'm not as extreme as he was though. It's tough to be personally detached all the time unless your personality is just that way to begin with.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I run my Goju-ryu dojo in a similar fashion. It is how I was taught myself. I never got to ask my sensei any questions in class coming up the ranks because he was so old school - of course that might be why he never really had that many students last too long. Once you made it to BB, he started opening up a bit more to you. I'm not as extreme as he was though. It's tough to be personally detached all the time unless your personality is just that way to begin with.

Ditto. This was how I came up through the ranks in TKD. I also attempt to carry on that tradition (because of its effectiveness) to a degree.

 

[andyjeffries]

How about ITF TAO?

Haven't heard of that one, what does it stand for?

 

[puunui]

It's tough to be personally detached all the time unless your personality is just that way to begin with.

I would say it is tough to be personally detached all the time and also is tough to understand the reasons why, if you were not brought up in a culture that emphasizes that and other things that are tough to understand, from your cultural perspective.

 

[dancingalone]

Haven't heard of that one, what does it stand for?

My guess: ITF, Take Any One.

 

[puunui]

Process goes: I want martial arts skills-->I look in the phone book to find a school-->I visit schools to find one that suits my needs-->I find an instructor who seems cool and who runs his class in an agreeable fashion-->I give him money in exchange for lessons to obtain the aforementioned skills.

In my opinion, that type of process and thinking will get you part of the way into level one, but not to level two or three.

 

[andyjeffries]

NK tends to be better at Striking, but C tends to have better SD.
V I would not recommend. Theyre a great Sport, but can be lacking in other areas.

PLEASE note that there are obviously exceptions.

That's interesting so thank you, but it doesn't answer the question which is the "ITF proper" (quote from Earl Weiss).

Is there a general consensus which one is the official/proper ITF? Does anyone know membership numbers to be able to say X is far bigger than Y and Z put together?

I understand there are going to be members in each that believe theirs is the official, but I'm trying to find out if there's "one more official/popular/whatever than the others".