this is a sad state of affairs

[SPX]

I'd say it at least should be a key differentiator. But I don't know if there's an reasonable chance of that happenning in WTF "elite" sparring.

Or maybe WTF practitioners are just not trained with that option in mind. Maybe if their coaches admited that option and started exploring that aspect of sparring even shihap kyorugi would look a little more interesting. Maybe...

Sometimes it just takes one new guy to start doing things differently and find success with an unconventional method to change the look of a sport. Fighters just have to think creatively.

 

[SPX]

The hogu can be penetrated with kicks and punches. I guess it provides some protection, but I always thought of the hogu as defining the scoring area.

I wore one for the first time the other day and it was a lot harder than I expected. I really think it would be difficult to soften a person up with lots of repeated blows in the same way that a Koyokushin fighter does because the hogu would absorb a lot of the impact.

That is, of course, not to say that you couldn't hurt someone with a punch, but I think it would have to be a strong power blow.

 

[SPX]

If there's a single martial sport that demonstrates an accurate representation to the art it's associated to, I don't know it. I'm a huge fan of sparring, though it isn't the primary focus of my training.

BUT I assume you would agree that the goal in sparring should be to get as close as possible to using the full curriculum while maintaining safety.

I really don't think the key to preserving TKD's kick-centric focus is in not scoring punches or not allowing punches to the head. ITF TKD allows punches to the head, but you still see far more kicks than punches. Why? Because kicks score more.

The key is in the scoring system, not in restricting techniques.

 

[Gemini]

that people are very nice to you?

Lol. Maybe. But then, I always try to treat people with respect and I train hard, so why shouldn't they.

that you dont see/hear what you dont want to see or hear? i dont know.

Possibly, but not likely. I like to think I keep an open mind. My point is, I hear stuff like that a lot on boards and such at a safe distance, not in person. The point I was trying to get to earlier and then completely left out was that 2 of those MAA fighters still complete in the WTF circuit.

BUT I assume you would agree that the goal in sparring should be to get as close as possible to using the full curriculum while maintaining safety.

I really don't think the key to preserving TKD's kick-centric focus is in not scoring punches or not allowing punches to the head. ITF TKD allows punches to the head, but you still see far more kicks than punches. Why? Because kicks score more.

The key is in the scoring system, not in restricting techniques.

Then we should immediately dismiss all point sparring. Stop and review after each point? Really? That's realistic. Not to mention the tap tag referred to as "punching" in tournaments I've seen. I touched your face so let's stop and see if i get a point. Do they teach that in class? I bet not. Again, my point being there is no sport version of a martial art that doesn't have its flaws and its advantages. Even MMA, which is considered by most to be the most authentic martial sport out there has obvious deviations from reality. The one thing they all do have in common is the dedication and talent required to excel at them. Would I like to see punching? Sure, along with every other type of strike we practice, but to even imply that because the rules are what they are is diminishing Taekwondo or any other art is pretty far fetched in my opinion. The only thing that will cause the opinion of Taekwondo to deminish as a martial art is the effectiveness of its practitioners, not the rules of the sport.

Some would imply that those who focus primarily on sparring aren't capable martial artists. I don't agree.

 

[puunui]

I wore one for the first time the other day and it was a lot harder than I expected. I really think it would be difficult to soften a person up with lots of repeated blows in the same way that a Koyokushin fighter does because the hogu would absorb a lot of the impact. That is, of course, not to say that you couldn't hurt someone with a punch, but I think it would have to be a strong power blow.

Your job is to train such that you can soften up your opponent using punches on the hogu. That is the meaning and purpose of training, to do things that untrained people cannot do.

 

[puunui]

BUT I assume you would agree that the goal in sparring should be to get as close as possible to using the full curriculum while maintaining safety.

I really don't think the key to preserving TKD's kick-centric focus is in not scoring punches or not allowing punches to the head. ITF TKD allows punches to the head, but you still see far more kicks than punches. Why? Because kicks score more.

The key is in the scoring system, not in restricting techniques.

Here is what GM LEE Chong Woo says about it:

When you look at all the sports, boxing employs hand techniques using the fist, and
therefore I decided we should develop Taekwondo as a sport emphasizing foot
techniques. We restricted hand techniques and we developed competition rules for
Taekwondo mainly emphasizing kicking techniques . . .”

“Since some people objected that Taekwondo is a sport combining foot and hand
techniques, and that eliminating the point for a punch is not fair, the rules have been
modified now. Punches are allowed, but it is a violation if the punch is to the face. In
any sport, there should be a unique factor to develop. In other words, soccer is a sport in
which you kick with your feet. In basketball, you throw with your hands. These are the
unique factors. Therefore, we decided to go with the focus on the feet.

 

[SPX]

Your job is to train such that you can soften up your opponent using punches on the hogu. That is the meaning and purpose of training, to do things that untrained people cannot do.

Yes, but you still have to deal with the laws of physics and whatnot.

I'm just saying that if you're going to use punches in WTF matches you probably want to act as if you're breaking a board and not just hitting a guy with no protection.

 

[SPX]

In any sport, there should be a unique factor to develop. In other words, soccer is a sport in which you kick with your feet. In basketball, you throw with your hands. These are the
unique factors. Therefore, we decided to go with the focus on the feet.

You see, this analogy isn't perfect, though. Because it's not like in soccer there are techniques in the sport to place the ball in the goal with your hands . . . but these techniques are just not allowed in competition. I'm sure that if that were the case then people would decry it as foolishness.

And like I said above, you can allow hands to the head and still maintain it as a primarily kicking aspect via the scoring system. Also, you can limit the amount of hand techniques that can be thrown in succession without throwing a kick.

I mean, just watch this vid and note the kick-to-punch ratio:

 

[Twin Fist]

now THAT is some good TKD

 

[puunui]

Yes, but you still have to deal with the laws of physics and whatnot.

I'm just saying that if you're going to use punches in WTF matches you probably want to act as if you're breaking a board and not just hitting a guy with no protection.

Think about adapting and overcoming, rather than focusing on all the reasons why it cannot be done. Others have done it, so can you. One hint, from boxing is a hook to the body used in a clinch. It won't score, or shouldn't, but master that, and people won't want to clinch with you anymore. Also, when you punch, try to make it so the opponent's hogu is flush against his body, rather than having an air pocket or space.

 

[puunui]

now THAT is some good TKD

Yeah, I especially like it when he bounces around with his arms dangling by his sides.

 

[Twin Fist]

his arms are tired from throwing punches....

 

[puunui]

And like I said above, you can allow hands to the head and still maintain it as a primarily kicking aspect via the scoring system. Also, you can limit the amount of hand techniques that can be thrown in succession without throwing a kick.

My suggestion is rather than trying to change WTF sparring into ITF sparring, why not just go join the ITF so you can compete at their tournaments? When I wanted to learn kicking, specifically kicking to the head, in sparring or whereever, I quit shotokan and moved to taekwondo. I didn't go bother my shotokan instructor and get him to incorporate taekwondo kicking.

 

[SPX]

Think about adapting and overcoming, rather than focusing on all the reasons why it cannot be done. Others have done it, so can you. One hint, from boxing is a hook to the body used in a clinch. It won't score, or shouldn't, but master that, and people won't want to clinch with you anymore. Also, when you punch, try to make it so the opponent's hogu is flush against his body, rather than having an air pocket or space.

Hmm, thanks for the tips. That something to consider for sure.

 

[SPX]

his arms are tired from throwing punches....

Ha.

 

[puunui]

his arms are tired from throwing punches....

either that or he's been watch a lot of footage from WTF competitions and understands why and when you do that.

 

[SPX]

My suggestion is rather than trying to change WTF sparring into ITF sparring, why not just go join the ITF so you can compete at their tournaments?

Oh, I'm just making conversation, for the most part.

With that said, I probably WOULD be ITF if there were good ITF schools around me, but there just aren't. I was involved with them for a bit (or the USTF, technically), but I had problems both with my instructor and some of the things going on in the organization. I actually did e-mail a local ITF instructor who I might want to train with just last night, but his class is really way too far for me to get to since I don't have a car.

My reasons for switching over are basically thus:

1. Quality of instruction - I really like the guy at my new WTF dojang and he has produced some good competitors, including one guy who tried out for the national team last year.

2. Lots of Sparring - There's not much of a sparring emphasis in the local ITF/USTF classes. I was with my instructor for 4 months and never once did ANYONE spar, regardless of belt color. At my new WTF school there are two sparring days a week and, unlike at a lot of TKD schools, he throws you into it immediately instead of making you wait 3 months or 6 months or whatever.

3. Distance from My Home - Easy to get to via public transportation.

4. Great Kicks - I really do enjoy kicking and WTF guys often have beautiful looking kicks.

5. Already Taking Karate - I would be more upset about the lack of hands in WTF TKD if it was all I'm doing, but I get plenty of hand training in my wado-ryu class, so I'm really not that worried about it.

6. It's Different - WTF TKD is different from everything I've done in the past. I think it's interesting. As long as I look at it purely as a sport, then I'm okay with the ruleset.

 

[SPX]

Let me also add one more thing to the above list:

7. Full Contact - Even though there aren't punches to the face and there's all kinds of protective gear, it appeals to me that I can kick someone in the head as hard as I can and KO them and instead of getting disqualified, I get awarded with instant victory.

 

[RobinTKD]

Firstly, ITF or WTF, it's all Taekwondo. Secondly, the ITF has it's own problems with sparring, yes they allow punches to the head, but then they also restrict contact, look back at the video you posted, there's a hook kick within the first minute and it's like a slap to the face. KO is not a valid form of victory in most ITF competitions and can result in instant disqualification. For me, this is how I believe ALL Taekwondo sparring should be...

Notice that there still isn't punching to the head, instead there are some takedowns and, more importantly to me, low kicks.

Don't get me wrong, I practice ITF Taekwondo, but not for sport.

Also the Judo analogy earlier, Glenn was right when he said about de-emphasizing groundwork, but also being able to grab the leg to throw from a primary attack is illegal, as is taking someone down with an armlock/strangle. Judo sport, is different to Judo the Art.

 

[SPX]

Firstly, ITF or WTF, it's all Taekwondo. Secondly, the ITF has it's own problems with sparring, yes they allow punches to the head, but then they also restrict contact, look back at the video you posted, there's a hook kick within the first minute and it's like a slap to the face.

I don't disagree. That's the trade-off: you get punches to the face, but lose full contact (although from what I hear many ITF comps, especially in the black belt divisions, are basically full contact).

Then again, a lot of the arguments from WTF guys is that it's a sport. Always bringing up the fact that such-and-such element is unrealistic and not good for self-defense loses sight of this. In the same vein, you can say the same thing about ITF sparring. It may not be full contact, but that's not what the sport is about. Rather, it's about putting shots on target with speed and precision to score points.

Also, I have to point out that most head kicks that I see in WTF competition don't land in a way that produces a knockout. Usually guys just walk through it and keep fighting.

For me, this is how I believe ALL Taekwondo sparring should be...

I really like that video! That looks like a lot of fun and looks like something I'd like to do. I still think it would be better if there were face punches, though. I mean, what's the argument against them?