this is a sad state of affairs

[dancingalone]

I would say it is tough to be personally detached all the time and also is tough to understand the reasons why, if you were not brought up in a culture that emphasizes that and other things that are tough to understand, from your cultural perspective.

Agreed. I've mentioned this one or twice here. I'm actually of Asian heritage, born in the old country, left when I was 2. I didn't have the buddy, buddy relationship with my father that so many here do. I remember being embarrassed that he wore suits to my football games. I hated how he never considered anything I did in sports to be as important as my school work.

Not sure in retrospect if my upbringing was a bad thing, but I know growing up I wished my father was more like my friends' dads. It's funny that my sensei, the man that has the most influence on me martially, is in a lot of ways exactly like my father.

 

[SPX]

I run my Goju-ryu dojo in a similar fashion. It is how I was taught myself. I never got to ask my sensei any questions in class coming up the ranks because he was so old school - of course that might be why he never really had that many students last too long. Once you made it to BB, he started opening up a bit more to you. I'm not as extreme as he was though. It's tough to be personally detached all the time unless your personality is just that way to begin with.

That's interesting, especially the point about students not lasting too long, because as I've mentioned before there aren't very many students at the wado school who are under brown belt. It's almost browns and blacks across the board, with a couple of purples . . . and then WAY down the ladder is myself, the lone white belt.

As for not being able to ask your sensei questions, I've never been in an environment that's like that. As a kid, I started in an ATA school and the instructors were very personable and friendly. In my teens, I studied wushu with a Chinese couple who came over from the mainland and they also were quite personal and we had plenty of conversations together and they worked with me directly all the time.

In my early 20s, I did judo and the class was extremely informal. We didn't even call the instructor sensei. He was just Greg. You could talk, laugh, joke, whatever, as long as you approached the actual training seriously.

My ITF instructor was quite formal, with all the Mr. so-and-so, and Yes, sir and No, sir, and having to listen to his lectures. But he did work with directly quite a bit.

At my current WTF school, the instructor is pretty laid back. I do refer to him as "Master Pace," but for the most part I can just talk to him like a regular person, and we've had plenty of casual conversations about TKD and MMA and plenty of other things.

Even at the wado school, like I said, Sensei Osaka basically acts like I don't exist, but the guy that I regard as MY instructor is just "Mark" to me. I don't even know his last name, don't refer to him as Sensei, don't refer to him as Mr. anything, and don't say "Yes, sir" or "No, sir." Respect is shown by maintaining a respectful demeanor in the way that I listen to what he says, follow directions, and ask questions.

 

[SPX]

In my opinion, that type of process and thinking will get you part of the way into level one, but not to level two or three.

What levels are you referring to?

 

[Earl Weiss]

GM is 9th Dan in the ITF

Following are the only 7 promoted by General Choi

I think I have the order correct vis a vis order of promotion. Note GMs Sereff and Hwang were promoted on tha same date. GMS Van Bin and Dang were also later promoted on the same date.

Rhee Khee Ha
Charles Sereff
Hwang Kwang Sung
Ngyen Van Bin
Dang Huy Duc
Woojin Jung
Jong Soo Park

 

[Earl Weiss]

Haven't heard of that one, what does it stand for?

Traditional Authentic Original.

 

[Earl Weiss]

NK tends to be better at Striking, but C tends to have better SD.
V I would not recommend. Theyre a great Sport, but can be lacking in other areas.

PLEASE note that there are obviously exceptions.

QUOTE]

Quite frankly I have no clue how such generalizations could be made. Whne the split(s) occurred in 2002 people from around the world chose one group or another, or none. It had nothing to do with their curriculum.
Striking, self defense, or sport emphasis probaly has more to do with the instructor than the organization.

 

[Earl Weiss]

That's interesting so thank you, but it doesn't answer the question which is the "ITF proper" (quote from Earl Weiss).

Is there a general consensus which one is the official/proper ITF? Does anyone know membership numbers to be able to say X is far bigger than Y and Z put together?

I understand there are going to be members in each that believe theirs is the official, but I'm trying to find out if there's "one more official/popular/whatever than the others".

Did I use the term "ITF Proper". If so I don't recall the context. As you say, any or all could try to claim it. And some may say none are.
I would say ITF V and ITF NK are the biggest. It's hard to pin done true numbers. I recall when some groups split from the USTF some years ago they would claim something like 5000 members each in the split off group. I'm thinking "Holy Cow" that means the USTF had 25000 active members before these splits which I know wasn't true.

 

[andyjeffries]

Did I use the term "ITF Proper". If so I don't recall the context. As you say, any or all could try to claim it. And some may say none are.
I would say ITF V and ITF NK are the biggest. It's hard to pin done true numbers. I recall when some groups split from the USTF some years ago they would claim something like 5000 members each in the split off group. I'm thinking "Holy Cow" that means the USTF had 25000 active members before these splits which I know wasn't true.

My apologies Earl, it wasn't you but SPX that used the term "ITF proper".

It's a shame that people/organisations can't stand up and be completely honest in saying "we have 12,345 members" (or whatever). If someone else has more, then you should double your efforts to increase your numbers. If you have less and are happy with that because you know you have the strongest members, then that's fine too. But just let the numbers out there.

Thanks for your information anyway.

 

[puunui]

I'm thinking "Holy Cow" that means the USTF had 25000 active members before these splits which I know wasn't true.

What was the highest number of USTF members registered, and in what year? What would be the ball park membership numbers now?

 

[puunui]

Agreed. I've mentioned this one or twice here. I'm actually of Asian heritage, born in the old country, left when I was 2. I didn't have the buddy, buddy relationship with my father that so many here do. I remember being embarrassed that he wore suits to my football games. I hated how he never considered anything I did in sports to be as important as my school work. Not sure in retrospect if my upbringing was a bad thing, but I know growing up I wished my father was more like my friends' dads. It's funny that my sensei, the man that has the most influence on me martially, is in a lot of ways exactly like my father.

It certainly is serving you well in your martial arts pursuits, your upbringing. Imagine if you didn't have that, how much harder it would be.

Your asian heritage also gives you a perspective on what asian instructors who come to the US to teach have face in terms of racism and discrimination, something that I think a lot of people don't really take into consideration. I don't know if you know who Master Han Won Lee is, but I attended his wedding in Michigan. His instructor got up to the podium during the reception and gave a speech about how he had spent more than half his life in the US, how he was a US citizen, that his kids were born here, and when he went to visit Korea how changed it is to the point where he feels more comfortable in the US than in Korea. Towards the end he proudly exclaimed that "I am an American" and I was looking at his Korean face, speaking with a Korean accent, wondering how many in the room disagreed with him.

That, I think, is a sad state of affairs.

 

[Cyriacus]

NK tends to be better at Striking, but C tends to have better SD.
V I would not recommend. Theyre a great Sport, but can be lacking in other areas.

PLEASE note that there are obviously exceptions.

QUOTE]

Quite frankly I have no clue how such generalizations could be made. Whne the split(s) occurred in 2002 people from around the world chose one group or another, or none. It had nothing to do with their curriculum.
Striking, self defense, or sport emphasis probaly has more to do with the instructor than the organization.

I did add a note at the end.

Explain then how one can look at each of them seperately, and notice that each one tends to do one thing more than another? It may be pure coincidence for all I know. Im just speaking of what I have personally seen.

 

[SPX]

. . . and I was looking at his Korean face, speaking with a Korean accent, wondering how many in the room disagreed with him.

Some may have found it a somewhat disconcerting site--for the reasons you mentioned--but this is 2012. Sure, there are bigots in America--as there are all over the world--but for the most part I don't think people sit around with prejudice in their heart, actively looking down on people of other races from other places. In fact, many people probably found it a refreshing act of patriotism for an immigrant to embrace the US like that. I know that I would have.

 

[puunui]

Some may have found a somewhat disconcerting site--for the reasons you mentioned--but this is 2012. Sure, there are bigots in America--as there are all over the world--but for the most part I don't think people sit around with prejudice in their heart, actively looking down on people over races from other places. In fact, many people probably found it a refreshing act of patriotism for an immigrant to embrace the US like that. I know that I would have.

You would think that would be true. I can tell you at a tournament I think in texas, the seniors came out of a korean restaurant, and some guy and his friends were outside saying racist things, slanting his eyes. I thought that there would be a mob scene, but the korean born seniors tried as best they could to ignore that stuff, got in their cars and drove away, all the while being heckled by that group. There are other incidents that I have witnessed first hand, but you get the picture.

 

[msmitht]

i know plenty of fat guys that can get in there and throw down Ron. A LOT of them in fact. a person's physical condition has exactly ZERO to do with thier ability to teach or PERFORM.


my gut doesnt stop me from being able to teach someone how to do a technique. sure, i cant do everythign as well as i used to, but thats as much age as condition.

do you realy believe that a persons physical condition has zero to do with their ability to perform? If so you should stop teaching immediately! By your reckoning an overweight person with asthma can run a marathon next to a fit us marine and will keep pace, right?

 

[SPX]

You would think that would be true. I can tell you at a tournament I think in texas, the seniors came out of a korean restaurant, and some guy and his friends were outside saying racist things, slanting his eyes. I thought that there would be a mob scene, but the korean born seniors tried as best they could to ignore that stuff, got in their cars and drove away, all the while being heckled by that group. There are other incidents that I have witnessed first hand, but you get the picture.

Well that's certainly pretty bad. And I'm not saying that things like that never happen. But I don't think it's the norm, at all.

I also think that, at least in some cases, joking around shouldn't be taken seriously. I am a moderator on another forum and we have a guy who's half-Chinese and we joke around with him about it, asking him how he can see with his eyes closed. I get mine in return, because they all crack on me about being short. But I know that it's just in good fun. So I think that context is important.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I did add a note at the end.

Explain then how one can look at each of them seperately, and notice that each one tends to do one thing more than another? It may be pure coincidence for all I know. Im just speaking of what I have personally seen.

I have no explanation and have no idea as to the nature and extent of your observations. I am well acquainted with many groups and indviduals, who have joined and in some cases left and joined other groups and cannot make any such generalizations.

 

[miguksaram]

Towards the end he proudly exclaimed that "I am an American" and I was looking at his Korean face, speaking with a Korean accent, wondering how many in the room disagreed with him.

That, I think, is a sad state of affairs.

This hit home with me because as you know my wife is Korean born and raised. She moved here when she was 23 and still has her accent. She is an American citizen and one of her proudest moments in her life was passing her citizens exam and taking that oath to be an American citizen. I would say people who immigrated here, have jumped through all the bureaucratic red tap, studied and pass an exam that most "natural born" citizens would fail, just to become a citizen, appreciate the true meaning and opportunity that America stands for more than most of us who were born here.

 

[Twin Fist]

asthma is a medical condition, and there is a HUGE (no pun intended) difference between "overweight" and "obese"

I know plenty of overweight guys that can hang all day in the dojo and put thier feet all over your head, at will. Their weight doesnt stop them. Mine doesnt stop ME.

now, they are the exceptions to be sure, and yes, it is always better to be in shape, but:

1) martial arts isnt a marathon. In REALITY, a fight should be over in 3-5 moves, not seconds, not minutes, not hours. MOVES. To use your example, martial arts is a sprint, not a marathon
2) you ignored the second half of what I said: having a beer gut in no way effects a person's ability to TEACH.

that was the original claim i was refuting. A complaint about teachers who were not in perfect shape. Screw that ****. First of all, i dont know anyone thats in perfect shape, and I know plenty of great teachers. In fact i know one that only became a great teacher AFTER they lost the ability to perform at competition level. Denied the ability to perform, they concentrated on teaching and found out they were really good at it.

no, an overweight guy with asthma cant run a marathon, no one said he could, but he can still do martial arts. There may be some things he wont be able to do at full capacity, but they can still have good technique and be good blackbelts. Maybe not in TKD, but there is an art for everyone.

Cant kick high? go into a kenpo art.

dont have a lot of upper body strength? go into an art that doesnt care about punching, like wtf tkd.

martial arts are not the property of skinny people. In fact, if you take the fact that impact force is = mass X speed, some thin guy will have less mass. That means less power. Thats why there are so many weight classes in boxing, thin, small guys just cant hit as hard as big guys.

I am more leery of fighting fat dudes like me than skinny guys any day of the week for that exact reason. Fat guy can pull a george forman on ya....lol

do you realy believe that a persons physical condition has zero to do with their ability to perform? If so you should stop teaching immediately! By your reckoning an overweight person with asthma can run a marathon next to a fit us marine and will keep pace, right?

 

[Twin Fist]

this is exactly true

Jhoon Rhee, the original korean TKD bb in america makes no bones that he considers himself an american from korea

he still gets misty eyed talkign about it.

This hit home with me because as you know my wife is Korean born and raised. She moved here when she was 23 and still has her accent. She is an American citizen and one of her proudest moments in her life was passing her citizens exam and taking that oath to be an American citizen. I would say people who immigrated here, have jumped through all the bureaucratic red tap, studied and pass an exam that most "natural born" citizens would fail, just to become a citizen, appreciate the true meaning and opportunity that America stands for more than most of us who were born here.

 

[Tez3]

The wado class is definitely very formal. In fact, the old Japanese guy who founded the school in 1970, Sensei Osaka, has never spoken a word to me. You use the word "distance" and that really does describe him. From everything that I've seen so far, on the days that he leads class, he shows up after the warm ups have begun, stretches out on his own, then jumps in to run the class through whatever activities are planned for the day, and immediately bounces out the door once class is over. He never stays around to chit chat with any of the students and he has never instructed me personally in any way.

The black belt who has been my primary instructor, a guy named Mark, usually either runs the class on Tuesdays and Thursdays in conjunction with Sensei Osaka, or runs the class by himself. He's pretty cool. There is still a sort of icy distance between us, but I think part of that has to do with just the kind of guy he is. He's kind of a weird cat who seems to never get overly emotional about anything. I've barely seen him crack a smile, but he doesn't get frustrated or angry, either. All in all, he kind of strikes me as being emotionally flatlined--stoic even--but I get a benevolent vibe from him.

The rest of the students in the class--most of which are black belts--are cool guys.

But the atmosphere is definitely more formal. People talk in hushed tones. There's not a lot of joking around going on in the dojo. The setting itself is fairly austere and gives off a traditional energy.

That sounds like the description of a man who is professional about his teaching rather than someone who is 'emotionally flatlined', I expect he reserves his emotions for the appropriate time and place. Being British though that thing is more the norm with most of us, we tend not to do the emotional stuff in public. Even our kids don't, they get embarrassed with the 'high five' and 'good job' stuff shouted around. A quiet well done is what they want. We don't have the American exhuberance I'm afraid so your instructor sounds quite normal, doing a professional job, to us.