this is a sad state of affairs

[dancingalone]

That's interesting, especially the point about students not lasting too long, because as I've mentioned before there aren't very many students at the wado school who are under brown belt. It's almost browns and blacks across the board, with a couple of purples . . . and then WAY down the ladder is myself, the lone white belt.

Healthy schools should have a broad range of practitioner skill levels. If the school has been established for a while yet there are not any senior students around to showcase what the teacher has been able to impart, it might be fair to wonder why. At the same time, a school that only has senior students and no intermediate colored belts has its own questions to ask about its vigor.

As for not being able to ask your sensei questions, I've never been in an environment that's like that. As a kid, I started in an ATA school and the instructors were very personable and friendly. In my teens, I studied wushu with a Chinese couple who came over from the mainland and they also were quite personal and we had plenty of conversations together and they worked with me directly all the time.
.....

If the style of instruction suits you, that's all that is important. Please keep us updated with your progress in both styles - the combination of Wado with KKW TKD is an interesting one. I'll be following with interest as you express yourself well and I can easily visualize what you describe.

 

[SPX]

That sounds like the description of a man who is professional about his teaching rather than someone who is 'emotionally flatlined', I expect he reserves his emotions for the appropriate time and place. Being British though that thing is more the norm with most of us, we tend not to do the emotional stuff in public. Even our kids don't, they get embarrassed with the 'high five' and 'good job' stuff shouted around. A quiet well done is what they want. We don't have the American exhuberance I'm afraid so your instructor sounds quite normal, doing a professional job, to us.

I dunno. He makes a lot of comments about Zen and speaks admiringly of how Sensei Osaka strikes him as a real-life Zen master. I think that acquiring that sort of quiet harmony in his own life is something that's important to him.

Several of us sat around after class last night and just chatted about random stuff and he actually smiled and laughed a little. I think he's a cool guy, and a total beast in terms of fighting. In sparring, he is ferocious.

 

[SPX]

Healthy schools should have a broad range of practitioner skill levels. If the school has been established for a while yet there are not any senior students around to showcase what the teacher has been able to impart, it might be fair to wonder why. At the same time, a school that only has senior students and no intermediate colored belts has its own questions to ask about its vigor.

I know the school was established in 1970 by Sensei Toshio Osaka, who is one of the top wado practitioners in the world.

But the way it was put to me by the other students is that Sensei Osaka isn't a flashy, showy guy who cares about fame. He doesn't advertise the school. He doesn't go out of his way to attract new students.

He pretty much stays out of the spotlight, while some of his high-ranking friends jetset around the world doing seminars and the like.

Some of the students, like Mark, have literally been with the school for almost 4 decades. Mark says he began training consistently when he was 8 year old, never stopped, and he is now in his mid-40s. Sensei refers to him as "his son" and has taken him to Japan several times and has traveled all around the world with him when he was younger to compete in tournaments and whatnot.

There are a few other students who also have been there for a decade or longer.

From what I've been told, the lowest ranking student beyond myself has been there about a year. A lot of people stop in to watch. Very occasionally people will actually sign up, and will usually do a few months of training and then disappear.

I think that, beyond there just not being much of an advertising push, it's not the kind of school that will appeal to everyone. The training is traditional. Lots of working on basics via line drills, which I think some people might eventually find dull and repetitive. And a lot of the other drills and sparring can become fairly hard contact, and everything is bare knuckle without any protective gear. Just in my first few lessons I was punched and kicked--not hard--but harder than I had been in a long time and I think that this would be difficult for a lot of people to deal with. I've definitely gotten a few bruises over the past month. In fact, I'm limping today because of a kicking drill we were doing last night. Foot's all bruised to hell. I actually was wondering last night if maybe it was broken.

Long story short, it's just not really a dojo for the "fitness" crowd (though if someone showed up with that goal their particular training would be tailored a bit more toward that end).

Here's the website, BTW:

http://wado-institute.com

If the style of instruction suits you, that's all that is important. Please keep us updated with your progress in both styles - the combination of Wado with KKW TKD is an interesting one. I'll be following with interest as you express yourself well and I can easily visualize what you describe.

Thanks. I appreciate the support. I think I might start a video blog or something of the sort to document the process.

 

[lifespantkd]

Some may have found it a somewhat disconcerting site--for the reasons you mentioned--but this is 2012. Sure, there are bigots in America--as there are all over the world--but for the most part I don't think people sit around with prejudice in their heart, actively looking down on people of other races from other places. In fact, many people probably found it a refreshing act of patriotism for an immigrant to embrace the US like that. I know that I would have.

The challenge, even today, for many who belong to a dominant social majority is not to overcome their overt prejudice and intolerance, but to overcome their covert over-privilege which they have culturally been taught to not even see. Prejudice based on race, ethnicity, nationality, gender, ability, weight, age, and so on causes harm not just through overt acts. It causes harm because numerous privileges are available to those of the dominant social majority that are not available to those of the non-dominant social minority. For more on this, see Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack by Peggy McIntosh: http://ted.coe.wayne.edu/ele3600/mcintosh.html. The incredible diversity found among practitioners of Taekwondo--be it based on style, nationality, fitness, gender, age, and so on--is an invitation for each of us to work to eliminate overt and covert forms of prejudice, intolerance, and over-privilege for the benefit of ourselves and each member of this very global community.

Cynthia

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Towards the end he proudly exclaimed that "I am an American" and I was looking at his Korean face, speaking with a Korean accent, wondering how many in the room disagreed with him.

That reminds me of the movie Dragon: The Bruce Lee story, where he is called Chink (part 3), and at the end of the fight (part 4) he says "I'm an American".

part 3:

part 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxqYjEzGEPs&feature=relmfu

 

[TaekwonPRO]

you got so called masters dogging on people FOR WINNING

you got other so called masters advocating for the removal of hand techniques

Who is saying this?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Who is saying this?

Its not hard to guess who's saying this. Go back through the thread, you wont miss it. I nearly fell off my chair when I read the bit about removal of hand techniques.

 

[puunui]

Who is saying this?

Jidokwan GM LEE Chong Woo, who many consider the main architect of WTF competition sparring.

“I thought Taekwondo should become a sport for competition from the beginning
stage, if we wanted to upgrade the value of Taekwondo. I was criticized a lot when the
competitors were injured, but the rate of injury was minimal. On the contrary, we must
emphasize the improvement of skills that are enhanced every day when contestants fight.
When you look at all the sports, boxing employs hand techniques using the fist, and
therefore I decided we should develop Taekwondo as a sport emphasizing foot
techniques. We restricted hand techniques and we developed competition rules for
Taekwondo mainly emphasizing kicking techniques . . .” -- GM LEE Chong Woo

 

[Gorilla]

The new EBP's have brought back hand tech's in WTF TKD. The fighters in Hawaii are some of the biggest users of punching in The USA. Jared McKee probably punches more than he kicks.

Troy Garrr's team also punchs allot.

The scoring of punches is much more liberal than it used to be. The Spanish Open 2010 they scored allot of punches.

I like the punching aspect it brings our Shotokan training into play.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

The new EBP's have brought back hand tech's in WTF TKD. The fighters in Hawaii are some of the biggest users of punching in The USA. Jared McKee probably punches more than he kicks.

Troy Garrr's team also punchs allot.

The scoring of punches is much more liberal than it used to be. The Spanish Open 2010 they scored allot of punches.

I like the punching aspect it brings our Shotokan training into play.

Thanks Gorilla, thats great to hear. Tkd with punching is great to watch.

 

[ATC]

The new EBP's have brought back hand tech's in WTF TKD. The fighters in Hawaii are some of the biggest users of punching in The USA. Jared McKee probably punches more than he kicks.

Troy Garrr's team also punchs allot.

The scoring of punches is much more liberal than it used to be. The Spanish Open 2010 they scored allot of punches.

I like the punching aspect it brings our Shotokan training into play.

Yes Garr's team punches alot. That is how my son lost to a kid he be easily a couple time before. The kid scored 4 punches on him. I have since started training my kids more in punching because of that. You have to adapt with what works.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

you got so called masters dogging on people FOR WINNING

you got other so called masters advocating for the removal of hand techniques

NO WONDER TKD is becomming the laughing stock of martial arts

and this crap and the people spewing it all have one thing in common:
WTF

I don't think that taekwondo is becoming or has become the laughing stock of martial arts. I do think that there is a very big disconnect with what is done in Korea and what is done here. I do not mean to say that a disconnect has developed, but that it has been there from the outset. If it had not been there, taekwondo in the US would look very different.

But it is there and taekwondo in the US looks the way it does. Not good or bad; it simply is. In the US, we have one major Korean organization (KKW/WTF), one smaller federation that has a lot of traction because it was started by Gen. Choi (ITF), one major American organization that broke away from Gen. Choi's org. (ATA), Jhoon Rhee TKD, and numerous smaller groups that have broken off from mostly the ITF and a large number of independents.

I suspect that they're all 'good' depending upon what you are looking for. You are one of the independents. From our conversations here, if I were nearby where you are, I'd gladly stop in to train. But if I were looking to go to the olympics or wanted a more sport oriented school, I'd look at a school that leans in that direction.

Be proud of what you do, TF. You don't need to knock what the rest do.

i swear, that craptastic body in korea will kill this art if they are allowed to.

Actually, I think that commercialization in the US will kill this art if it is allowed to, regardless of what federations you are looking at.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

his arms are tired from throwing punches....

I don't think that that is the case.

I watched the entire video and my assessment is that kicking is the primary method of scorring, as there was a lot more kicking than punching. Looked an awful lot like a WTF match with head punching thrown in and hogu thrown out.

I really don't see how you can like this but dislike the WTF sparring with such intensity. If it is simply because punches are deemphasized by comparison, then I certainly hope that you hate boxing for its utter lack of anything but.

 

[puunui]

The new EBP's have brought back hand tech's in WTF TKD. The fighters in Hawaii are some of the biggest users of punching in The USA. Jared McKee probably punches more than he kicks.

I know. My student started that punch scoring trend in the 90's. As for jared, i love him like my own son. I just promoted him to Kukkiwon 3rd Dan a couple of months ago, paying the test fee myself, because he is a starving athlete with no money. During friday night or saturday morning sparring class, if someone was showing a bad attitude or needed discipline, I would tell jared to dish it out.

There was a taekwondo student here who hopped around from gym to gym. No one really liked him, mainly because of his parents but also because of him as well. Hawaii is very open, anyone can train at any other dojang, as long as the instructor agreed, so this student used to come around. When it was that boy's turn, I told jared to score ten back kicks on that boy and I counted out as he landed each one, to the mom's horror, while his instructor (my student who started the punch scoring trend) chuckled to himself, because he knew what I was doing, and why. If you ever saw the movie Men of Honor, I looked like Robert Deniro at the end, but instead of counting out twelve steps in a 290 pound suit, I was counting out ten back kicks landing on a hogu.

The sad thing was, that boy had talent and in my opinion, could have been yet another team member contender from Hawaii. I understand he no longer does taekwondo.

Which brings us to this:

I like the punching aspect it brings our Shotokan training into play.

I think that is the thing that hurts taekwondo the most, that people feel the need to change it to suit their own interest. Instead of thinking "I like punching, so I will dog WTF competition because it doesn't have any" or "I or my students will gain a competitive advantage if we have more punches scored", I would rather look at the overall picture and see taekwondo competition (at least at the Olympics or under the WTF Rules) and try to understand the rationale behind the decision to emphasize kicks. To that end, we have the words of GM LEE Chong Woo on that: "When you look at all the sports, boxing employs hand techniques using the fist, and therefore I decided we should develop Taekwondo as a sport emphasizing foot techniques. We restricted hand techniques and we developed competition rules for Taekwondo mainly emphasizing kicking techniques . . .”

We should consider that before implementing any changes to the competition rules, that shooting for a balance between punches and kicks takes away taekwondo's unique characteristic, and makes us less distinguishable from karate, kickboxing or mma. Put another way, some Hawaii kids may get hurt by a decision to deemphasize punch scoring, but that should not be a factor in my position with respect to scoring punches. To do so would mean that I put my own interests over and above what is in the best interests of taekwondo as a sport in the Olympic Games.

 

[puunui]

I have since started training my kids more in punching because of that. You have to adapt with what works.

Has your crew adapted to Daedo now that Lajust is no more?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I am not advocating for the removal of hand techniques in taekwondo, just in the competition format, shihap kyorugi. You can punch all you want in self defense, in poomsae, in kyuk pa, where ever else in taekwondo. Or do you find it too hard to compartmentalize like that?

So you would like to see the WTF rules eliminate punching altogether? If yes, than why? Not criticizing one way or the other; simply trying to see your position.

 

[puunui]

So you would like to see the WTF rules eliminate punching altogether? If yes, than why? Not criticizing one way or the other; simply trying to see your position.

For the reasons stated by GM LEE Chong Woo. Scoring with kicks in a competitive format is taekwondo's unique characteristic. You can punch all you want to the body to set up kicks, but I wouldn't score any punches. Cleaner, easier to understand and makes for more exciting matches.

Boxing has no kicks, but I don't see anyone screaming about that. I once saw a fight in high school between two golden gloves champions, one a friend of mine, and the other the younger brother of a different friend. One had karate training in addition to boxing, the other only boxing. They squared off and the one with karate training started mercilessly kicking the other in the leg, which took all the steam out of the boxer only's game. The boxer eventually got knocked out by the karate boxer. But when the karate boxer fought in golden gloves matches, he did not use kicks, but just punches.

So you can train for both self defense and tournaments using a more restrictive rule set and be effective in both. And if you do not like WTF competition under the kick focused rules, then you can fight at different tournaments using different rules and no one will criticize you for it. However, it seems that people feel the need to jump up and down and loudly criticize the WTF Rules.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

For the reasons stated by GM LEE Chong Woo. Scoring with kicks in a competitive format is taekwondo's unique characteristic. You can punch all you want to the body to set up kicks, but I wouldn't score any punches. Cleaner, easier to understand and makes for more exciting matches.

Boxing has no kicks, but I don't see anyone screaming about that. I once saw a fight in high school between two golden gloves champions, one a friend of mine, and the other the younger brother of a different friend. One had karate training in addition to boxing, the other only boxing. They squared off and the one with karate training started mercilessly kicking the other in the leg, which took all the steam out of the boxer only's game. The boxer eventually got knocked out by the karate boxer. But when the karate boxer fought in golden gloves matches, he did not use kicks, but just punches.

So you can train for both self defense and tournaments using a more restrictive rule set and be effective in both. And if you do not like WTF competition under the kick focused rules, then you can fight at different tournaments using different rules and no one will criticize you for it. However, it seems that people feel the need to jump up and down and loudly criticize the WTF Rules.

Makes sense to me. I think a lot of the reason that people criticize the emphasis on kicking is that we're accustomed to boxing and the idea of a 'clean' punching only fight. We are also accustomed to wrestling, which is, of course, just wrestling. I'm not sure why a kicking only or a kicking mostly game bothers people so much. Maybe they feel that boxing more closely resembles a 'real fight' so they are okay with it? But since sporting events aren't 'real fights' I don't see what the big deal is. It's like saying that baseball is inferior to kendo because you can only hit the ball and not the pitcher.

I suppose that if a taekwondoist really wanted to enter such tournaments, they could locate open open tournaments and compete.

 

[mastercole]

For the reasons stated by GM LEE Chong Woo. Scoring with kicks in a competitive format is taekwondo's unique characteristic. You can punch all you want to the body to set up kicks, but I wouldn't score any punches. Cleaner, easier to understand and makes for more exciting matches.

Boxing has no kicks, but I don't see anyone screaming about that. I once saw a fight in high school between two golden gloves champions, one a friend of mine, and the other the younger brother of a different friend. One had karate training in addition to boxing, the other only boxing. They squared off and the one with karate training started mercilessly kicking the other in the leg, which took all the steam out of the boxer only's game. The boxer eventually got knocked out by the karate boxer. But when the karate boxer fought in golden gloves matches, he did not use kicks, but just punches.

So you can train for both self defense and tournaments using a more restrictive rule set and be effective in both. And if you do not like WTF competition under the kick focused rules, then you can fight at different tournaments using different rules and no one will criticize you for it. However, it seems that people feel the need to jump up and down and loudly criticize the WTF Rules.

Excellent posts. Keeping punching to the body in the game, but not allowing it to score, is actually genius. This mean's no one is punching for points, they are punching to shut down the other fighter through shear brute force of the punch, which has to be perfect to weaken the body, not so perfect to knockout to the jaw.

Our seniors all ready hashed all this out for us, 50 years ago.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Makes sense to me. I think a lot of the reason that people criticize the emphasis on kicking is that we're accustomed to boxing and the idea of a 'clean' punching only fight. We are also accustomed to wrestling, which is, of course, just wrestling. I'm not sure why a kicking only or a kicking mostly game bothers people so much. Maybe they feel that boxing more closely resembles a 'real fight' so they are okay with it? But since sporting events aren't 'real fights' I don't see what the big deal is. It's like saying that baseball is inferior to kendo because you can only hit the ball and not the pitcher.

I suppose that if a taekwondoist really wanted to enter such tournaments, they could locate open open tournaments and compete.

As someone else pointed out a while ago, the difference is that everything in boxing's skillset is on display during a boxing match. They dont kick, but hey, boxing skillset doesnt include kicking so who cares. Tkd's skillset does include far more than just kicking and that is where I think the problem lies with a lot of people.