Facts, Fiction, Lies and actual accounts

[chrispillertkd]

There are people on this forum who know Kukkiwon poomsae practice, history or theory extremely well. I'm not one of them, and are in fact their distant junior, who learns a great deal from them on MT. You might want to PM them, because I get the feeling they don't want to be muddied up in this pig fight. Puunui and Mastercole, are already out, so try to get in touch with MSUTKD or Miles. There are others, who I can't think of right off the of me head. A History of Modern Taekwondo ( http://tkd.stanford.edu/documents/tkd_history.pdf) authored by , KANG, Won Sik, and LEE Kyong Myong, has excellent info.


LEE Kyong Myong

I read the Modern History book a few times. I don't recall it mentioning information as it pertains to what I'm asking. I'll have to look through it again.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Archtkd]

I read the Modern History book a few times. I don't recall it mentioning information as it pertains to what I'm asking. I'll have to look through it again.

Pax,

Chris

This is some good info Miles has posted here on MT, a while back.

"During the 1950's Korean martial artists were primarily performing Okinawan and Chinese forms. With the efforts to unify the various Kwans came an effort to standardize the material taught. To this end, the Korea Taekwondo Association had representatives from the various Kwans become members of the Poomsae Committee. The task of the Poomsae Committee was to create uniquely Korean Taekwondo poomsae. The members of the Committee and their Kwan affiliation were:

1) KWAK Kun Sik (Chung Do Kwan)2) LEE Yong Sup (Song Moo Kwan)3) PARK Hae Man (Chung Do Kwan)4) HYUN Jong Myung (Oh Do Kwan)5) KIM Soon Bae (Chang Moo Kwan)

These original members created the Palgwae poomsae and the Yudanja poomsae (Koryo through Ilyo). It is important to emphasize that the Oh Do Kwan, which were using the Chon Ji forms created by Gen. Choi, participated in the creation of the new KTA poomsae, and thus were an active part of the unification process. The Oh Do Kwan member who participated was GM HYUN Jong Myung, the Oh Do Kwan Jang at the time. The Palgwae poomsae were the first uniquely Korean Taekwondo poomsae. Unfortunately, they were created without the input of two of the original Kwans: the Jidokwan and the Moo Duk Kwan. The reason for this is that the Kwan Jangs of these Kwans: Dr. YOON, Kwe Byung and GM HWANG, Kee, respectively, had left theKorea Taekwondo Association and had a rival organization, the Korea Soo Bahk Do Association. Several years later, a majority of Jidokwan (under the leadership of GM LEE, chong Woo) and Moo Duk Kwan (lead by GM HONG, Chong Soo) members rejoined the Korea Taekwondo Association. At that time, it was felt that the input of these Kwans should be included, and new poomsae, the Tae Guek series was created. The additional members from the Jidokwan and Moo Duk Kwan were:

6) LEE Chong Woo (Jidokwan)7) BAE Young Ki (Jidokwan)8) HAN Yong Tae (Moo Duk Kwan)

(Names and Kwan affiliation of Poomsae Committee members comes to me courtesy of my friend and senior Glenn U. from his many conversations with Kwan founders and pioneers)."​

 

[chrispillertkd]

Already knew the members of the committee and the general history that you mentioned. It doesn't really cover the subject I'm primarily interested in. Thanks, though!

Pax,

Chris

 

[dancingalone]

Already knew the members of the committee and the general history that you mentioned. It doesn't really cover the subject I'm primarily interested in. Thanks, though!

Pax,

Chris

Chris, do you know the exact author of each one of the tuls? Or are they all attributed to General Choi?

 

[chrispillertkd]

A bit of both, really. I don't have my notes handy right now so I can't tell you specifics about who worked on what tul with Gen. Choi but, basically, he designed them and then got input from his top black belts (there might be a couple of exceptions to this, depending on how you take things, but even so Gen. Choi's "fingerprints" are all over each tul). I read an interview with GM Lee, Yoo Sun some time ago and he mentioned Gen. Choi reading tul movements to him (and other instructors) while they performed the movements while the tul were being developed.

If you want names of who was involved with which tul let me know and I'll look through my notes and PM you tomorrow.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Archtkd]

Already knew the members of the committee and the general history that you mentioned. It doesn't really cover the subject I'm primarily interested in. Thanks, though!

Pax,

Chris

Here's additional stuff that's more specific.:

KTA Poomse Committee​

[FONT=&quot]
The following is a paraphrasing from Chapter 10 of the Korean language book, “A Modern History of Taekwondo”, on the development of the Poomsae[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The KTA Poomsae Committee was formed in 1965 and it took two years to create the new forms. On November 30, 1967, the KTA began educating Taekwondo practitioners on the new forms. It was very difficult in the beginning, but gradually the new forms were spread. The KTA Poomsae Committee was composed of the following members: KWAK Kun Sik (Chung Do Kwan and also a Captain at the Korean Military Academy), LEE Yong Sup (Song Moo Kwan), LEE Kyo Yun (Han Moo Kwan), PARK Hae Man (Chung Do Kwan), HYUN Jong Myun (Oh Do Kwan), and KIM Soon Bae (Chang Moo Kwan). By 1967, the Palgwe forms and Yudanja (Black Belt forms Koryo through Ilyo) were created, totaling 17 poomsae.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Later, the Taeguek forms were created, and BAE Young Ki (Jidokwan) and HAN Yong Tae (Moo Duk Kwan) assisted the original committee members, with LEE Chong Woo supervising the efforts of the Committee. The Taeguek poomsae were finalized and revised by PARK Hae Man at the Chung Do Kwan dojang in Yong San over the course of 4 days. These revisions were later confirmed. IM Chang Soo (who now lives in the US) was the Administrative Assistant to GM Park during the Taeguek forms revisions, but he made many mistakes during the creation of the Poomsae Textbook (Taekwondo Kyobon) and this led to misunderstandings. For example, the poomsae should start with the left foot, but IM Chang Soo made it so the poomsae started with the right instead. This is an example of the type of mistakes that were made.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]After the mistakes were discovered, the KTA did not correct it because it was hard to reprint the Textbook, because everything had to be done by hand and there was no computer to assist in the editing like today. The Textbook was completed in 1972 with 25 Poomsae (8 Palgwe, 8 Taeguek and 9 Yudanja forms).[/FONT]

 

[d1jinx]

i think glen posted it here, but i didnt search yet. it broke down each poomse in sets of 3 I believe, with 3 names to each set.each set was a member from each kwan.. Im on the fly here, so i reeally dont have the time to look it up, but it was definately discussed before.

question is though, why do you ask? what is it you are looking for specifically?

 

[d1jinx]

True. But from what I have seen, most KKW schools pretty much stop at WTF sparring. As I said, that is based on my personal observation; not based on any sort of hard data.

I too, am seeing more WTF sparring schools that are geared only toward sparring and only do the minumums set by KKW. but those schools usually are obvious and schools like us, still do exist.

 

[chrispillertkd]

i think glen posted it here, but i didnt search yet. it broke down each poomse in sets of 3 I believe, with 3 names to each set.each set was a member from each kwan.. Im on the fly here, so i reeally dont have the time to look it up, but it was definately discussed before.

question is though, why do you ask? what is it you are looking for specifically?

Was this question directed at me? I didn't know I needed a specific reason to ask a question other than curiosity. I was looking for, as I said, the names of who developed which forms (Palgues, Taeguks, and black belt forms).

Pax,

Chris

 

[d1jinx]

Was this question directed at me? I didn't know I needed a specific reason to ask a question other than curiosity. I was looking for, as I said, the names of who developed which forms (Palgues, Taeguks, and black belt forms).

Pax,

Chris

Yes the question was directed at you. I asked so I could try to see if i could help find what you were looking for if there was more to it then just the names. But since you seem defensive and ack as if I have no right to ask, then oh well.

try google.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Yes the question was directed at you. I asked so I could try to see if i could help find what you were looking for if there was more to it then just the names. But since you seem defensive and ack as if I have no right to ask, then oh well.

try google.

How odd that you think I was being defensive as that was the exact impression that came off from your post.

I would be interested in knowing, however, why you think "question is though, why do you ask?" I was under the assumption that people asked questions on a public BBS about topics in which they are interested. As for you "right" to ask why I asked the question in the first place, it was because I was curious.

Pax,

Chris

 

[msmitht]

My gm, rest his soul, came from the moo duk kwan origiinally. He and his brothers trained under a young hwang kee in what they called tang soo do(which he said was kung fu and karate blended together). When the korean war started they left home, north korea, and travelled south for safety. After the war he and his brothers joined choi, hong hi at the military compound in korea where they started tkd. He left hwang kee's group because choi offered him a ticket to america under the tkd banner.
This was the history I was taught.
After a few glasses of soju he once told me, and my seniors, that many of the early practitioners were "bad guys" or "gangsters".

 

[d1jinx]

After a few glasses of soju he once told me, and my seniors, that many of the early practitioners were "bad guys" or "gangsters".

you know there must be some truth to that cause i heard something similiar along the same lines. I had this 1 Korean teacher, who i became close to ( so i thought, another story for another time) he told me that his wifes parents didnt like him and didnt approve of thier daughter marrying him because he was a taekwondo instructor. He said they viewed taekwondo instructors as bad guys and tough guys and didnt have much respect for them calling them thugs. So much so that they got married and came to the US. He was a military TKD instructor in Korea. They prefered she married a business man. I thought that was odd, because it was the first time i had ever heard such a thing. A few years later, i heard another similiar story from someone totaly different.

 

[Master Dan]

It was interesting to her my GM who was Tang Soo before TKD also from the North mention his personal opinions on the Kwans which had more of a cast society issue to it like one were Railroad workers others more organized protection groups similar to what you are saying lik gangters

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

you know there must be some truth to that cause i heard something similiar along the same lines. I had this 1 Korean teacher, who i became close to ( so i thought, another story for another time) he told me that his wifes parents didnt like him and didnt approve of thier daughter marrying him because he was a taekwondo instructor. He said they viewed taekwondo instructors as bad guys and tough guys and didnt have much respect for them calling them thugs. So much so that they got married and came to the US. He was a military TKD instructor in Korea. They prefered she married a business man. I thought that was odd, because it was the first time i had ever heard such a thing. A few years later, i heard another similiar story from someone totaly different.

I have heard similar stories; not that the pioneers were thugs, but that unless one is a coach or a school owner, practicing marital arts in Korea is something that you do when you are young and then you move on to more respectable pursuits.

Shouldn't be surprising. Hypothetical: A couple have a daughter. She is dating different young men. One young man is going to law school and two other are athletes; one a boxer and one a football player. All three are pleasant enough. Which of the three young men do you think mom and dad are more enthused about?

Athletics in the US really isn't all that different when you think about it. Most athletes do not pursue athletics after college. Some do, but only a handful of athletes (comparatively) go on to make big money, and those are generally viewed as being less affluent than businessmen, doctors and lawyers.

I think one of the issues is that regardless of how much an athlete makes, he or she is a commodity that is marketed by a team owner and cared for by coaches and trainers. Essentially, a race horse.

 

[punisher73]

I have heard similar stories; not that the pioneers were thugs, but that unless one is a coach or a school owner, practicing marital arts in Korea is something that you do when you are young and then you move on to more respectable pursuits.

Shouldn't be surprising. Hypothetical: A couple have a daughter. She is dating different young men. One young man is going to law school and two other are athletes; one a boxer and one a football player. All three are pleasant enough. Which of the three young men do you think mom and dad are more enthused about?

Athletics in the US really isn't all that different when you think about it. Most athletes do not pursue athletics after college. Some do, but only a handful of athletes (comparatively) go on to make big money, and those are generally viewed as being less affluent than businessmen, doctors and lawyers.

I think one of the issues is that regardless of how much an athlete makes, he or she is a commodity that is marketed by a team owner and cared for by coaches and trainers. Essentially, a race horse.

I think it is more than that, I think it is more along the lines of what d1jinx talked about. In the book, The Killing Art, this was spelled out with citations of the criminal connections and some of the stuff that happened in the name of TKD and their political fighting.

That being said, I don't think that it is exclusive to TKD. Many kung fu masters had ties to the triads and the "societies" and the training was for the gang members.

 

[dancingalone]

Shouldn't be surprising. Hypothetical: A couple have a daughter. She is dating different young men. One young man is going to law school and two other are athletes; one a boxer and one a football player. All three are pleasant enough. Which of the three young men do you think mom and dad are more enthused about?

Athletics in the US really isn't all that different when you think about it. Most athletes do not pursue athletics after college. Some do, but only a handful of athletes (comparatively) go on to make big money, and those are generally viewed as being less affluent than businessmen, doctors and lawyers.

I think one of the issues is that regardless of how much an athlete makes, he or she is a commodity that is marketed by a team owner and cared for by coaches and trainers. Essentially, a race horse.

No, it's a different dynamic than that. The majority of prep school athletes in the US have no illusions that they will ever make the pros. But, they'll still play in rec league basketball, soccer, tennis, etc., even as they attend college, graduate, and then move on with their lives. It's not unusual at all to see someone play tennis their whole life.

I get the sense in my interaction with Koreans that there is more of complete divorce between taekwondo and 'adult life' even though TKD is their national sport. Odd from my perspective.

 

[Archtkd]

I get the sense in my interaction with Koreans that there is more of complete divorce between taekwondo and 'adult life' even though TKD is their national sport. Odd from my perspective.

I also think it's about status in life. Koreans tend to be very status concious and taekwondo teachers for the most part rank very low in many Koreans' eyes. I heard someone once say as low as burger flipper status. I remember meeting a Korean attorney attending Washington University in St Louis, and he seemed to be stunned when he learned I had a masters degree, worked as a journalist for many years, yet choose to quit from a good newspaper gig to open my own dojang. Every time I met him with other Koreans he would often introduce me as a writer/journalist (which I still do and teach on the side) and then mention I also teach taekwondo.

 

[Archtkd]

I get the sense in my interaction with Koreans that there is more of complete divorce between taekwondo and 'adult life' even though TKD is their national sport. Odd from my perspective.

And to add. many other ethnicities and countries tend to view athletes and people involved with sports as folk of low status. Think of the jokes people make about ordinary gym teachers in this country. That despite the terrifying obesity we are witnessing.

In Kenya, my home country, long distance runners, until recently, were looked at as people with goat herder status. Depending on what Kenyan ethnic group you come from, running in general is not viewed as activity to be pursued by intelligent adulls.
People will actually laught at joggers on Nairobi streets. Money of course is rapidly changing that view as a number of Kenyans begin make million by winning international races

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

And to add. many other ethnicities and countries tend to view athletes and people involved with sports as folk of low status. Think of the jokes people make about ordinary gym teachers in this country. That despite the terrifying obesity we are witnessing.

I've heard this one many times. 'Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach, teach gym.' One of my gym teachers taught non gym classes as well, in addition to coaching the football team. He certainly proved the saying wrong.