this is a sad state of affairs

[puunui]

Firstly, ITF or WTF, it's all Taekwondo. Secondly, the ITF has it's own problems with sparring, yes they allow punches to the head, but then they also restrict contact, look back at the video you posted, there's a hook kick within the first minute and it's like a slap to the face. KO is not a valid form of victory in most ITF competitions and can result in instant disqualification. For me, this is how I believe ALL Taekwondo sparring should be...

A friend of mine who was a kuk sool dan holder moved to korea to get his masters degree. He entered a hapkido tournament back in the late 80s or early 90s and ended up winning all his matches with a low spin kick. The rules allowed it, but I think hapkido tournaments were new at the time and so everyone was fighting with taekwondo style techniques. he kept doing low spin kick to everyone's ankles and they dropped like flies. He ended up quitting kuk sool won in favor of brazilian jiujitsu and is now considered the father of BJJ in South Korea.

 

[RobinTKD]

I don't disagree. That's the trade-off: you get punches to the face, but lose full contact (although from what I hear many ITF comps, especially in the black belt divisions, are basically full contact).

That is true to an extent, but it depends where you're fighting, and under which organisation. The good thing about the WTF is that it all comes under that one umbrella, for ITF in the UK we have the TAGB, UKTA, UKTF, GTUK etc, and most orgs won't let you fight in others competitions. Though there is the british open which is open to any member of the BTC/BTCB, that's only once a year.

Then again, a lot of the arguments from WTF guys is that it's a sport. Always bringing up the fact that such-and-such element is unrealistic and not good for self-defense loses sight of this. In the same vein, you can say the same thing about ITF sparring. It may not be full contact, but that's not what the sport is about. Rather, it's about putting shots on target with speed and precision to score points.

Also, I have to point out that most head kicks that I see in WTF competition don't land in a way that produces a knockout. Usually guys just walk through it and keep fighting.

Exactly, if you practice only Shihap Kyorugi, then maybe you aren't practising a full martial art, so she should be looked at in the same way as learning tennis or football. Though there are more learned people than I on that particular point.

In regards to the amount of KO's, I'm not sure either of us are qualified to have a well informed opinion. I have heard from people on this board who frequent the comps that they tend to be KO after KO after KO. That said, it's the same with the top end of any sport, that when you have 2 people fighting at their absolute peak, they are unlikely to make a mistake, and therefore unlikely to be KO'd.

I really like that video! That looks like a lot of fun and looks like something I'd like to do. I still think it would be better if there were face punches, though. I mean, what's the argument against them?

You and me both! Again, there are better people to speak about it, but I believe the emphasis on kicking and less punching was more to do with distancing it from Karate, who at the time of the Seoul Olympics was also trying to become an Olympic sport, and other martial arts like kickboxing, muay thai, even savate. All those arts had quite a following in the 80's when WTF TKD shot to fame.

 

[RobinTKD]

A friend of mine who was a kuk sool dan holder moved to korea to get his masters degree. He entered a hapkido tournament back in the late 80s or early 90s and ended up winning all his matches with a low spin kick. The rules allowed it, but I think hapkido tournaments were new at the time and so everyone was fighting with taekwondo style techniques. he kept doing low spin kick to everyone's ankles and they dropped like flies. He ended up quitting kuk sool won in favor of brazilian jiujitsu and is now considered the father of BJJ in South Korea.

Glenn, do you have any more information on Hapkido sparring? Any history? Or any recommendations for books?

 

[puunui]

Glenn, do you have any more information on Hapkido sparring? Any history? Or any recommendations for books?

sorry but no. I will say that my friend's ankle was swollen for a long time after that tournament from the low spin kicks. I believe he won that two or three years in a row. I am not really interested in hapkido sparring, accept for a type of hapkido hand technique drill that i practice that has a feel of sparring. It would be too much for my plate to get involved in that. I might have some hapkido books with sections in it with sparring, but it is in the korean language and would be difficult for you to obtain. I suggest you try youtube and search around there for hapkido tournaments. that would be the best source, video footage.

 

[SPX]

. . . and most orgs won't let you fight in others competitions.

Won't LET you?

This was another big problem I had with ITF-based organizations. They're always up in your business. There are all kinds of formalities and etiquette BS and it's just lame.

The way I see it is that I pay my instructors for a service, and I am a member of such-and-such organization out of necessity. But ultimately, I pay them to teach me a certain skillset. What I do outside of their class is none of their business--the instructor's or the organization's. If I want to train in another martial art, that's none of their concern. If I want to compete in X, Y or Z organization, that also is none of their concern. Just give me what I pay you for and let that be that.

And just to clarify, that doesn't mean you don't need to show respect or that you can't develop a bond or friendship with your instructor. I have my own personal ethics, in this regard. I would not seek out instruction from a different teacher in the same art without first consulting my primary instructor, for instance.

In regards to the amount of KO's, I'm not sure either of us are qualified to have a well informed opinion. I have heard from people on this board who frequent the comps that they tend to be KO after KO after KO.

I'm really curious to attend a few WTF comps and see if that is true.

 

[Twin Fist]

.

good stuff, needs punches

 

[puunui]

The way I see it is that I pay my instructors for a service, and I am a member of such-and-such organization out of necessity. But ultimately, I pay them to teach me a certain skillset. What I do outside of their class is none of their business--the instructor's or the organization's. If I want to train in another martial art, that's none of their concern. If I want to compete in X, Y or Z organization, that also is none of their concern. Just give me what I pay you for and let that be that.

I don't have the same type of relationship with my teachers that you do.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Firstly, ITF or WTF, it's all Taekwondo. Secondly, the ITF has it's own problems with sparring, yes they allow punches to the head, but then they also restrict contact, look back at the video you posted, there's a hook kick within the first minute and it's like a slap to the face. KO is not a valid form of victory in most ITF competitions and can result in instant disqualification. For me, this is how I believe ALL Taekwondo sparring should be...

Notice that there still isn't punching to the head, instead there are some takedowns and, more importantly to me, low kicks.

Don't get me wrong, I practice ITF Taekwondo, but not for sport.

Also the Judo analogy earlier, Glenn was right when he said about de-emphasizing groundwork, but also being able to grab the leg to throw from a primary attack is illegal, as is taking someone down with an armlock/strangle. Judo sport, is different to Judo the Art.

Nice vid, thanks for that. The low kicks add another dimension to the sparring, I like it. Im going to ask my instructor if we can have a go at that next class.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Now this is fun -

 

[SPX]

I don't have the same type of relationship with my teachers that you do.

It's like I point out in the last paragraph of my post, it's all good if you bond with your instructor and become friends, but that's not a requirement. And at the end of the day, if you're paying for martial arts lessons you are ultimately a customer. He's a seller, you're a buyer.

I've heard of martial arts instructors getting offended because a student goes and learns another martial art from someone else. Why? That's ridiculous. It's a totally different thing even though they both fall under the category of martial arts. I mean, should a basketball coach get pissed because you also play soccer?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I wore one for the first time the other day and it was a lot harder than I expected. I really think it would be difficult to soften a person up with lots of repeated blows in the same way that a Koyokushin fighter does because the hogu would absorb a lot of the impact.

That is, of course, not to say that you couldn't hurt someone with a punch, but I think it would have to be a strong power blow.

Puuini is right. A good punch, or kick for that matter, and you will still drop someone despite the fact they are wearing a hogu. We had a big samoan boxer come and train with us, his kicks were very ordinary but geez he could punch. People were dropping like flies, and they were wearing hogus. My original instructor always starts each sparring bout with a huge uppercut into the other guys ribs, its the last thing they suspect and they usually go flying. Only works once though

 

[RobinTKD]

Won't LET you?

This was another big problem I had with ITF-based organizations. They're always up in your business. There are all kinds of formalities and etiquette BS and it's just lame.

The way I see it is that I pay my instructors for a service, and I am a member of such-and-such organization out of necessity. But ultimately, I pay them to teach me a certain skillset. What I do outside of their class is none of their business--the instructor's or the organization's. If I want to train in another martial art, that's none of their concern. If I want to compete in X, Y or Z organization, that also is none of their concern. Just give me what I pay you for and let that be that.

And just to clarify, that doesn't mean you don't need to show respect or that you can't develop a bond or friendship with your instructor. I have my own personal ethics, in this regard. I would not seek out instruction from a different teacher in the same art without first consulting my primary instructor, for instance.

I should rephrase my original quote, whatever org you belong to won't let you fight in another orgs competition. I study ITF and I also cross train in Judo, and until recently Goju-Ryu. What I mean is that if you belong to the UKTA, they won't let you enter a TAGB contest. It limits who you can fight, and as a result, limits your progression. I've heard stories from people in the UKTA who left because they were going to competitions and fighting the same people year after year. Most have ended up in the WTF, or started their own independent school. I'm not sure what the situation is out in the US though, whether the whole ITF comes under the USTF or like us you have a million and 1 orgs all fighting for supremacy.

 

[SPX]

^^^ No need to rephrase. I understand what you meant.

And what I mean is that I think it's ridiculous that one organization will not let you compete in another org's tournaments. Like you say, it limits your progression.

In the US, I imagine it's very similar to the UK. I know there is a presence for the ITF proper. But there are plenty of breakaway orgs. The USTF is only found in Utah, merely one of the 50 states. I can only imagine what's going on elsewhere.

 

[andyjeffries]

In the US, I imagine it's very similar to the UK. I know there is a presence for the ITF proper. But there are plenty of breakaway orgs.

Which is the "ITF proper"? ITF-V, ITF-C or ITF-NK?

 

[andyjeffries]

That is true to an extent, but it depends where you're fighting, and under which organisation. The good thing about the WTF is that it all comes under that one umbrella, for ITF in the UK we have the TAGB, UKTA, UKTF, GTUK etc, and most orgs won't let you fight in others competitions. Though there is the british open which is open to any member of the BTC/BTCB, that's only once a year.

There is only one org with the WTF mandate, but there are lots of "WTF-style" groups (I'm a member of the UKTDC) although they have to be referred to as Kukkiwon-style Taekwondo as I believe the WTF MNA in the UK complains about the use of "WTF" without a mandate.

 

[Earl Weiss]

. I'm not sure what the situation is out in the US though, whether the whole ITF comes under the USTF or like us you have a million and 1 orgs all fighting for supremacy.

In 2002 after the infamous NK coup at the Memorial service the USTF withdrew as a member org of the ITF.

In 2010, the ITFV told USTF individual members they were not welcome if they attempted to be part of that group as well as ITFV.

They passed a By Law (which in my opoinion violates their own constitution) saying you could not be a member of any national organization which was not an official ITFV National organization.

 

[andyjeffries]

In 2002 after the infamous NK coup at the Memorial service the USTF withdrew as a member org of the ITF.

In 2010, the ITFV told USTF individual members they were not welcome if they attempted to be part of that group as well as ITFV.

They passed a By Law (which in my opoinion violates their own constitution) saying you could not be a member of any national organization which was not an official ITFV National organization.

Do the other ITFs have a similar by-law or are they more open to multi-organisation membership?

 

[Earl Weiss]

Just to be clear. Their are 2 orgs using these initials and after a suit the non ITF affiliated one changed the last word to foundation.

The USTF which was with the ITF headed by Sr. GM Sereff one of 7 General Choi promoted to GM was affiliated with the ITF thru most of 2002 until after the NK split. It is found throughout the USA and headquartered in Colorado.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Which is the "ITF proper"? ITF-V, ITF-C or ITF-NK?

How about ITF TAO?

 

[Earl Weiss]

Do the other ITFs have a similar by-law or are they more open to multi-organisation membership? <<<

I have no idea and ITFV supposedly passed this in 2009.