The Resurgence of Traditional Martial Arts in Modern Mixed Martial Arts

[drop bear]

I am suggesting that with out being able to show or use the defining skill sets of an art, one has not mastered it.

Against a person fighting back?

 

[drop bear]

I am suggesting that with out being able to show or use the defining skill sets of an art, one has not mastered it.

" Irimi (入身). Irimi refers to the concept of moving directly into the space of an opponent, rather than retreating or avoiding the attack. It is a fundamental principle in Aikido "

along with

" Tenkan (転換) is a fundamental movement that involves pivoting or turning the body to redirect an opponent's energy. It is often used in conjunction with Irimi (entering) to blend with an attack and neutralize it without relying on brute force."




The skill sets, do not prevent movement. They do define the type and purpose of movement

Not at all...
The uke's are picked because of their understanding, level, and ability to use "real" intent with out fear of injury
Allowing the Sensei to be more dynamic in his response with out fear of injuring the uke.

Aikido demonstrations are not intended to be a representation of fighting in the conventional sense. They are a display of principles—such as blending, redirection, and control—applied in a controlled environment.
It is said that Aikido's focus is on harmonizing with aggression rather than defeating an opponent, which is why it doesn't resemble competitive or combative fighting.

Can it be used competitively outside of its format of course, just not in the same way due to it's focus.
Why when one is said to have mastered the art, they should be able to demonstrate their mastery according to their level of it.

examples...

Karate, one armed.

MMA

Is your second video the professional wrestling one?

Like bart Vale made a name off?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Against a person fighting back?

I don't believe Aikido guys ever train against fighting back opponent. There is no Aikido tournament at all.

 

[isshinryuronin]

" Irimi (入身). Irimi refers to the concept of moving directly into the space of an opponent, rather than retreating or avoiding the attack. It is a fundamental principle in Aikido "

along with

" Tenkan (転換) is a fundamental movement that involves pivoting or turning the body to redirect an opponent's energy. It is often used in conjunction with Irimi (entering) to blend with an attack and neutralize it without relying on brute force."

There is nothing wrong with these tactics, quite the contrary. The problem is getting into position and executing them against a resisting opponent. This is where I think modern aikido is missing a few tools that karate can supply. Re: irimi, I think a more aggressive approach can help with preparation prior to your attack with arm and leg checks in place and an initial strike. Re: tenkan, an efficient application of some force (need not be "brute") and accompanying biomechanics, could make a big difference as far as efficacy is concerned.

It is said that Aikido's focus is on harmonizing with aggression rather than defeating an opponent, which is why it doesn't resemble competitive or combative fighting.

I'm thinking you're referring to the opponent's aggression here. How about turning it around and harmonizing with your own aggression. Too passive a mindset against resistance can be too weak to handle it. If we're talking about aikido strictly as self-development my points are not much important, but to make the art able to work in a real combat situation, IMO, a more aggressive approach as I've opined seems like a solution.

I wish I had learned aikido formally. I think it could be blended into karate quite nicely. Hard and soft can work as a team.

 

[windwalker099]

IMO, a more aggressive approach as I've opined seems like a solution.

I wish I had learned aikido formally. I think it could be blended into karate quite nicely. Hard and soft can work as a team.

General terms used to describe Akido.
Those that I've met could hold their own,
they worked in the prison system in Hawaii at time..

What do you feel about this teachers skill level

Would you consider the teacher a master level practitioner ?
If not why ?
If so why ?

compared to this practitioner

 

[isshinryuronin]

General terms used to describe Akido.
Those that I've met could hold their own,
they worked in the prison system in Hawaii at time..

What do you feel about this teachers skill level

Would you consider the teacher a master level practitioner ?
If not why ?
If so why ?

compared to this practitioner

Some of the aikido guys in the second clip seemed to be using some karate skills with their aikido, using more aggressiveness and force like I mentioned in my post. Seemed to be effective.

 

[drop bear]

That was one strange fight by the way.

I would point out i don't think he won as was implied in the other video. But he only has one arm. So that is hardly to his detriment.

 

[drop bear]

I don't believe Aikido guys ever train against fighting back opponent. There is no Aikido tournament at all.

Their is some jujitsu sort of Aikido tournaments.

They do the knife stuff.

 

[drop bear]

Is your second video the professional wrestling one?

Like bart Vale made a name off?

Here we go i found the promotion i was thinking of. They have those same signature boots and you can hear the sprung floor going off.

It's a Japanese WWE thing.

 

[drop bear]

Here we go i found the promotion i was thinking of. They have those same signature boots and you can hear the sprung floor going off.

It's a Japanese WWE thing.

So this might be a good example of martial arts mastery being a very ambiguous term.

So there was a shoot fighter(kind of MMA ) called Bart Vale. Who was awarded the black belt magazine full contact fighter of the year.

(Black belt magazine was the resource we went to for martial arts who's who before the internet)

And so was considered a master. He released the videos. Hob knobed with the biggest names. The whole bit.

But his mastery was based on a scripted Japanese professional wrestling promotion. Just nobody bothered to check. And nobody called him out for ages.

And looking back now. It was obvious.

It is very easy for most people to be fooled if we do not apply good intellectual standards to the information we consume.

(Can you hear that sprung floor?)

 

[marvin8]

I am suggesting that with out being able to show or use the defining skill sets of an art, one has not mastered it.

Would you consider the teacher a master level practitioner ?
If not why ?
If so why ?

What "defining skill sets" does this aikido master show that is different?

https://imgur.com/MADklgV

 

[Sammy Naur]

Would be better to speak for your self....

So you consider yourself a tough guy, but you've never done MMA? But feel free to expound on it?

Someone I knew once pointed a rifle at me and said,

"You may know that stuff, but I can shoot you from down the street."
This was late at night, he lived down the street from my house.

In that moment, I took the rifle from him, ensured it wasn’t loaded, and told him to put it away.
We walked and talked afterward, resolving the issue.
Made for a late night..reaching the "end point"

The "end point "
In any situation is something that one should always consider if they have time to do so..

What does this statement have to do with TMA or MMA?

Not at all

You just said exactly that.

The reference comes from Kill or Be Killed by Col. Rex Applegate, a training manual once used to train Marines.

But not anymore, right? Do you know what they use today, in 2025? Boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Muay Thai.

Are you familiar with MCMAP and how's it's changed over the last 70 years? I find it funny that you're posting an ancient source and I can post multiple recent ones that clearly show which martial arts United States Marines train.

MMA focuses on winning in a competitive environment,

Also known as winning a fight....

emphasizing the individual rather than any single martial art, which is why it’s labeled "mixed martial arts."

What's wrong with emphasizing the individual?

TMA as described by "Kungfu Wang," include movements that are unsuitable for competition, often intended as "finishing moves."

Also known as things nobody can train realistically, and by the way, I can finish with handful of basic Judo techniques. Break bones, strangle people, etc.

The founders of most styles demonstrated the effectiveness of their art, while successive generations adapted and modified it to suit their needs and societal changes.

In some cases, these adaptations have been so significant that, for many, the original focus of the art is no longer present in what is commonly taught today. Choosing a MA practice depends on personal goals and priorities. Those pursuing competitive success must train specifically for that, while TMA practitioners should understand that adapting to competition may compromise the essence of their training.

"Adapting to competition"? So you are basically saying water down your training?

What's the point in that? You are either training for a fight, or you are playing.

The Ssireum guys are pretty tough...
Doubt you would find any MMA guy competing with them or they competing MMA.

Really? Why would you doubt that, when "MMA guys" typically compete in any ruleset (just so you know, women also compete in MMA).

What you posted was basic Korean folk wrestling, something found in at least 100 other countries. And I have to tell you, an average high school wrestler would smoke these guys.

 

[Sammy Naur]

What "defining skill sets" does this aikido master show that is different?

https://imgur.com/MADklgV

This was refreshing, to see an Aikidoka who can actually last.

You can kind of tell he didn't stick to just the dead training.

 

[Sammy Naur]

Can you substantiate this claim? What do you mean by LARPing? Faking a fight for publicity?

It's kind of self explanatory. Live action role play? TMA has a prima facie issue with that sort of thing.

 

[Sammy Naur]

Krav Maga, koryū jujutsu, judo, even aikido is actively taught in military schools, especially in Japan, Australia, and the UK.

Remember, many TMAs contain a "hidden" curriculum ("gokui" in Japanese). You can't judge what you've never seen.

Sure you can. And that's called an "argument from ignorance" in debate circles.

Krav Maga is not a TMA, and it's based on boxing and wrestling mostly.

Koryu jujutsu is not trained alive anymore.

Judo and Aikido are barely older than my grandfathers

So what hasn't been seen? I'm positive every martial arts technique man has ever invented is public knowledge.

Again, this whole "TMA has secrets!" theme is lost on me. "finishing moves"?, modern arts and especially MMA have plenty.

 

[Sammy Naur]

I don't have any mixed martial art background

Thanks for the honesty. Honestly.

Check out that video of the Aikidoka holding his own against an average MMA fighter. I thought that was a great example of keeping things real, vs theoretical.

 

[Sammy Naur]

As with most things "what" is taught is not the same as "why"

In the video, the instructor mentions all their training is weapons based.
In MMA, it's competition based
In TMA, it's style based with or with out weapons

Competition based vs "style based".

What?

In the military, what is taught evolves as weapons and tactics change to meet modern demands.
In MMA, what is taught adapts according to the rule set and the strategies needed to counter specific adversaries.
In TMA, what is taught typically remains consistent, preserving the style and techniques according to tradition.


Most CMA have training for Sanda separate from their formal training.
Sanda their version of MMA with very few if any traditional arts feilding competitors for it as examples of
their style in use. Some have tried, in name only..

People in China familiar with the style asking why what was traditionally trained not used as would be expected,
or claimed...

2 very distinctive styles based on totally different historical methods
training for the same type of format.

For some the tradition is tied to the culture ,
making the main point one of preserving the tradition.

For others.

The main point is to win the event or to survive the event.
Different training focus.

More false choices.

So let me ask you, what's your experience in MMA? Because I have experience in both TMA and MMA and so I don't have this sort of "it's this or that" mentality you seem to have.

You really seem to be white knighting martial arts that don't have an alive component or competition format. Which is fine, but you shouldn't be also suggesting they are more dangerous, deadly, superior, etc.

Korean folk wrestling, for instance, is pretty tame compared to MMA, but you just posted that video and actually claimed "MMA guys" wouldn't do it?

 

[windwalker099]

o let me ask you, what's your experience in MMA? Because I have experience in both TMA and MMA and so I don't have this sort of "it's this or that" mentality you seem to have.

While I’m not personally interested in organized competitions, I have worked with competitive martial artists seeking different skill sets. In some cases, I helped them prepare by serving as a sparring partner or assisting with their training. In other cases, I introduced concepts they might not have practiced or been aware of, expanding their approach beyond competition-based techniques.

You really seem to be white knighting martial arts that don't have an alive component or competition format. Which is fine, but you shouldn't be also suggesting they are more dangerous, deadly, superior, etc.

Just sharing some experience views in training.

competition-based arts focus on winning through adaptation, adjusting strategies as needed to succeed within a defined rule set.

TMA tend to emphasize cultural preservation and techniques that were developed in different historical contexts, often prioritizing form and philosophy over direct competition. However, some TMAs do include competitive elements, and some competition-based arts also maintain strong traditional values.

My interest reflect TMA
Understanding the rationale for other approaches. In some cases, the competitive aspect has been the undoing of the functionality of an art beyond its competitive venue.. taiji, push hands, a good example of this process.

Korean folk wrestling, for instance, is pretty tame compared to MMA, but you just posted that video and actually claimed "MMA guys" wouldn't do it?

You left some of it out, misquoted.

windwalker: The Ssireum guys are pretty tough...
Doubt you would find any MMA guy competing with them or they competing MMA."

Doubt not the same as wouldn't

"tame" think so ?
As you asked me, "what's your experience in MMA Ssireum ?

 

[windwalker099]

More false choices.

maybe it wasn't clear

In the military, combat training evolves as weapons, tactics, and operational demands change.

In MMA, training adapts based on the rule set and the most effective strategies for countering specific opponents.

In TMA, training typically emphasizes preserving historical techniques and stylistic traditions, though some schools incorporate modern adaptations.

The choice of training depends on one's interests. Each system's development is shaped by the forces that drive its evolution—whether practical combat needs, competitive adaptation, or tradition.

 

[windwalker099]

What "defining skill sets" does this aikido master show that is different?

https://imgur.com/MADklgV

" Irimi (入身). Irimi refers to the concept of moving directly into the space of an opponent, rather than retreating or avoiding the attack. It is a fundamental principle in Aikido "

along with

" Tenkan (転換) is a fundamental movement that involves pivoting or turning the body to redirect an opponent's energy. It is often used in conjunction with Irimi (entering) to blend with an attack and neutralize it without relying on brute force."

This teacher does not seem to have any idea of "irimi" entering or "tenkan" getting off line.

Could be wrong, an Aikidoist, might have a better more in depth explanation, or correct my understanding.