The Resurgence of Traditional Martial Arts in Modern Mixed Martial Arts

[Sammy Naur]

With consenting adults, both presumably possessing matched skill sets, their goal to "win"
provides entertainment for the audience, generates revenue for event organizers.

Or is there another purpose?

What "audience"? What "revenue"? These are not MMA things, the goal of MMA is to combine striking and grappling and submission arts from anywhere into one cohesive framework.

And since when was the goal of martial arts to lose?

We are talking about hand to hand fighting, right? Well trained MMA students are good at it. And this thread is about what "resurgence" there might be from TMA. But I think that already happened in the sense that TMA already heavily influenced MMA.

And, that there remains a lot of TMA people who continue to act superior. You can counter that MMA people act superior but they at least have the evidence, and in my own experience, they don't diss on TMA. That's a relic from the 90s that ended around the time Royce Gracie learned Thai Boxing.

What's with the Uncle Sam poster? I don't get it.

 

[Sammy Naur]

Well, you don't see a lot of evidence of TMA guys beating MMA guys cause we're like honey badgers. Like the 20lb honey badger kills a 600lb lion, TMA guys dart in real quick, rip the other guys nuts off then escape while our victim bleeds to death. Then the whole thing has to be covered up so no one knows just how deadly we really are

Ok I get the humor in this. That made me laugh.

Seriously though, I'm getting disgruntled at this whole sport vs street nonsense.

There are so few TMA with evidence of active combat training. Not that they don't exist, they are just uncommon. Compare Kyokushin to all other forms of karate, there is a clear difference. Central Asian arts that have a long history of full contact combat, vs all the others. European arts like Savate, catch, and boxing, and all others.

What's common is the number of people claiming MMA is about ego/money/rage/violence/pride/rules. Not what it really is, the best modern place to test any martial art, no matter the claims around it.

Somebody before brought up Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu. Isn't that a dead, historical TMA? Please prove me wrong and show me something MMA can learn from it.

I'm willing to learn anything new.

 

[Badhabits]

Ok I get the humor in this. That made me laugh.

Seriously though, I'm getting disgruntled at this whole sport vs street nonsense.

There are so few TMA with evidence of active combat training. Not that they don't exist, they are just uncommon.

What's common is the number of people claiming MMA is about ego/money/rage/violence/pride/rules. Not what it really is, the best modern place to test any martial art, no matter the claims around it.

I get what you're saying. I don't agree though that MMA is the best modern place to test any martial art. It's apples and oranges for me. At least with karate, I don't believe it was designed for a back and forth fighting "match". The whole system, training methods and all would be much different if it was.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

historical TMA? Please prove me wrong and show me something MMA can learn from it.

I'm willing to learn anything new.

What skill can MMA learn from TMA? This is a good question.

IMO, at least 1 technique that MMA can learn from TMA and that is the "embracing" throw. At least I have not seen many MMA guys use this in the ring yet. My teacher's brother was very good on this. His belly was like a spring that can bounce his opponent off the ground. If he smashes his opponent down head first with his downward force, it can be a finish fight move.

The TMA "head smashing" can be a good finish move used in MMA if MMA rule allows it.

 

[windwalker099]

We are talking about hand to hand fighting, right?

are we ?

The TMA "head smashing" can be a good finish move used in MMA if MMA rule allows it.

Wonder why it among other moves are not allowed ?

What's with the Uncle Sam poster? I don't get it.

you mentioned

There are many local LARP groups you can join to indulge yourselves, the rest of us are rolling on mats, and around the cage and ring, and going home with bruises. And some of us also train TMA.

Thought you and some others might want to, as you say "indulge"
yourselves in the military..


KILL OR GET KILLED
RIOT CONTROI TECHNIQUES,
MANHANDLING, AND CLOSE COMBAT,
FOR POLICE ANDTHE MILITARY
By Lieutenant Colonel Rex Applegate
USA Ret.

"The methods advocated in this chapter are simple and are
based on a style of fighting that knows no rules, that depends
on speed and ruthlessness for results.

Boxing and wrestling are sports. They can be used only to a limited extent in combat.
The fighting tactics discussed here, however, are designed to knock, out, maim, or kill, as the situation may demand."


An interesting read from long ago..

 

[Sammy Naur]

are we ?

Yes. Please check the thread title.

Wonder why it among other moves are not allowed ?

Killing someone? What are you even saying here, that TMA is better at killing than MMA?

I'm pretty sure most well trained combat athletes of any type can murder either one of us.

Are you really suggesting that people who train MMA can't do those "illegal" things, but TMA schools are were you learn "the real" deadly arts?

you mentioned

Thought you and some others might want to, as you say "indulge"
yourselves in the military..

The military doesn't use hand to hand fighting now. It's 2025.

KILL OR GET KILLED
RIOT CONTROI TECHNIQUES,
MANHANDLING, AND CLOSE COMBAT,
FOR POLICE ANDTHE MILITARY
By Lieutenant Colonel Rex Applegate
USA Ret.

"The methods advocated in this chapter are simple and are
based on a style of fighting that knows no rules, that depends
on speed and ruthlessness for results.

You are just doubling down on my whole point here. This is a thread about TMA influencing MMA. Your archive.org link is totally off topic, Rex Applegate lived in an earlier era and died in 1998, the same year Frank Shamrock fought Igor Zinoviev in UFC16

Boxing and wrestling are sports. They can be used only to a limited extent in combat.
The fighting tactics discussed here, however, are designed to knock, out, maim, or kill, as the situation may demand."

I see. So you are claiming the military has the best hand to hand, and that's because of TMA?

Then why are there so few professional fighters with only military training? Right, according to some of you, they are hidden away, secret. Like Frank Dux' book, "The Secret Man", right?

No, the best hand to hand fighting training out there is MMA hands down, but MMA is based on many TMAs. You appear to be one of the people who believe TMA stands on its own, absent of the sort of training modern MMA fighters go through.

And to defend your points, you're pulling up videos of a man whose been dead for 27 years, citing his experience from 75 years ago.

But you weren't done with just MMA...you have other axes to grind. More sport vs. street false choices. Let's go.

You just claimed Boxing and wrestling are of limited extent in hand to hand combat? Since when? Because boxing and wrestling and MMA can easily be used to KO, maim, or kill.

So again, please name a TMA with strong evidence of such deeds. Chances are it's going to be a lot of pseudohistorical stuff, with maybe a few nuggets of fact buried in it.

Can you even post anything less than 25 years old? Not some half century old book or old black and white film, something tangible and recent.

 

[windwalker099]

I'm pretty sure most well trained combat athletes of any type can murder either one of us.

Would be better to speak for your self....


Someone I knew once pointed a rifle at me and said,

"You may know that stuff, but I can shoot you from down the street."
This was late at night, he lived down the street from my house.

In that moment, I took the rifle from him, ensured it wasn’t loaded, and told him to put it away.
We walked and talked afterward, resolving the issue.
Made for a late night..reaching the "end point"

The "end point "
In any situation is something that one should always consider if they have time to do so..

And did you just claim Boxing and wrestling are of limited extent in hand to hand combat? Since when? Because boxing and wrestling and MMA can easily be used to KO, maim, or kill. And again, name a TMA with strong evidence of such deeds.

Not at all

The reference comes from Kill or Be Killed by Col. Rex Applegate, a training manual once used to train Marines.

Chances are it's going to be a lot of pseudohistorical stuff, with maybe a few nuggets of fact buried in it

MMA focuses on winning in a competitive environment, emphasizing the individual rather than any single martial art, which is why it’s labeled "mixed martial arts."

TMA as described by "Kungfu Wang," include movements that are unsuitable for competition, often intended as "finishing moves."

The founders of most styles demonstrated the effectiveness of their art, while successive generations adapted and modified it to suit their needs and societal changes.

In some cases, these adaptations have been so significant that, for many, the original focus of the art is no longer present in what is commonly taught today. Choosing a MA practice depends on personal goals and priorities. Those pursuing competitive success must train specifically for that, while TMA practitioners should understand that adapting to competition may compromise the essence of their training.

Ultimately, it’s up to the individual to decide what aligns with their objectives.

Have worked with competitors, sparing partner ect..have met those who said the did BJJ, sambo "Russian combat sport,"
and interesting enough an art called Ssireum 씨름 Traditional Korean Wrestling while in Korea.

All interesting,,,,some quite different from each other.
The Ssireum guys are pretty tough...
Doubt you would find any MMA guy competing with them or they competing MMA.

@Kung Fu Wang

Wondering if you'r familiar with this style

 

[JowGaWolf]

The old adage "the goal of the martial arts is in the not using of the martial arts".

I never liked this one. It never made any sense to me. If I don't want to use martial arts, then I should not train martial arts. I train the things I will use.

Not using a martial art has nothing to do with martial arts. That's an individual choice on deciding if they should fight and when they should fight. If I want to win without fighting, then I should train to win without fighting. I should spend more time on psychology and negotiations.

I don't train to fight so that I don't fight. Things in martial arts get romanticized in a bad way.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The worst nightmare for any MA person can be - You get into one street fight. In that fight, you only throw 1 punch. You kill your opponent. You spend the rest of your life in jail.

This is not my worst nightmare. My worst nightmare is that my enemy throws more than one punch and makes this my reality.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Wondering if you'r familiar with this style

I don't like this approach. It's like Taij push hand. Some BJJ also take this approach. There is no set up.

No set up in Taiji PH.

You have to pass the kicking range, pass the punching range, establish a clinch, before you can wrestle. By skipping all those steps, it's pure "sport" and not "combat". The grip position is limited. The throws are also limited.

Some BJJ training also skip all those steps (kicking range -> punching range -> clinch -> throw).

No set up in BJJ.

TMA should have all the set up steps.

 

[Haruhiko]

I never liked this one. It never made any sense to me. If I don't want to use martial arts, then I should not train martial arts. I train the things I will use.

Not using a martial art has nothing to do with martial arts. That's an individual choice on deciding if they should fight and when they should fight. If I want to win without fighting, then I should train to win without fighting. I should spend more time on psychology and negotiations.

I don't train to fight so that I don't fight. Things in martial arts get romanticized in a bad way.

So your reason for training or studying a martial art is to fight with it. That's your decision. That's why I trained in Taekwondo - to fight and win.

Now I train and study two very different arts for very different reasons.

 

[Haruhiko]

This is yet another unfounded claim with no evidence.

I'm not claiming anything, more observing rhetorically.

The people with relatively no MMA experience are pushing the agenda that TMA is actually superior, and to do that they are using a lot of unsubstantiated rhetoric, ancient history, anecdotes, etc.

I don't mean to push any agenda but I do criticise UFC-MMA a lot. I don't think I've presented anything unsubstantiated or appeal to history.

The truth is LARPing is strong with the TMA crowd and always has been. And that really does a disservice to the TMA crowd that doesn't LARP.

Can you substantiate this claim? What do you mean by LARPing? Faking a fight for publicity?

 

[Haruhiko]

What is your MMA background? Do you have much?

I don't have any mixed martial art background. I'm a former professional TKD athlete/assistant instructor and current student of two koryūha.

 

[Haruhiko]

There are so few TMA with evidence of active combat training.

Krav Maga, koryū jujutsu, judo, even aikido is actively taught in military schools, especially in Japan, Australia, and the UK.

Remember, many TMAs contain a "hidden" curriculum ("gokui" in Japanese). You can't judge what you've never seen.

Somebody before brought up Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu. Isn't that a dead, historical TMA? Please prove me wrong and show me something MMA can learn from it.

I did.

Daitō-ryū Aiki-jūjutsu - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

It's alive. MMA is a catch all term, and most MMA fighters are under the UFC ruleset which prohibits a lot of techniques found in TMA because of safety reasons.

Traditional Martial Arts vs MMA: Can Aikido Adapt and Thrive?

by Antonio TerroneThere has been much clamor in the aikido world about a recent study suggesting that practice of the traditional martial art is shrinking in the modern world. Based on Google Trend data, the Aikido Journal published a special report on the art’s demographics, and it too...

www.blackbeltmag.com

What's common is the number of people claiming MMA is about ego/money/rage/violence/pride/rules. Not what it really is, the best modern place to test any martial art, no matter the claims around it.

Maybe MMA-UFC could do with an ego check? This is harsh, but the insults flung in weigh ins, the drama, the controversy, the banality of the current meta is simply doing MMA an injustice as much as it is martial arts in general.

Sure, martial arts have never been so popular commercially. At what cost?

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1080/17461391.2019.1629180

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I believe the big difference between TMA and MMA is:

- Not all TMA guys love fighting. Some TMA guys train MA for different reasons (such as health, performance, self-cultivation, inner peace, culture study, ...).
- All MMA guys train MA for the same reason (fighting).

When a non-fighting TMA guy talks to a MMA guy, it can be like a chicken talk to a duck.

I train TMA. Fighting is the "only" reason of my training. I may not belong to the mainstream but I don't mind at all.

 

[windwalker099]

You have to pass the kicking range, pass the punching range, establish a clinch, before you can wrestle. By skipping all those steps, it's pure "sport" and not "combat". The grip position is limited. The throws are also limited.
Some BJJ training also skip all those steps (kicking range -> punching range -> clinch -> throw).

No set up in BJJ.

You mentioned "combat" limiting it's scope to unarmed.
You didn't mention shooting range...or knife range...

If those ranges are not accounted for among other things, is it training for "sport" or combat ?

I train TMA. Fighting is the "only" reason of my training. I may not belong to the mainstream but I don't mind at all.

It's a mind set..
What some call fighting, measured in competitions. "wins"

TMA mind set, measured in staying alive.. "life"
Understanding this, most avoid fighting if possible.

All combat is fighting, not all fighting qualifies as combat.

 

[windwalker099]

The military doesn't use hand to hand fighting now. It's 2025.

Combatives are still taught,,,

 

[Dirty Dog]

Combatives are still taught,,,

Sure. Sort of. They have less training time than one of my yellow belts. Which is reasonable, because it is, as was mentioned 2025. If a soldier is fighting hand to hand, lots of things have gone badly wrong.

I looked it up. The Marine Corp MA program awards belts. Each rank requires 25-35 hours of training. Black requires 40. Less than 200 hours of training from day 1 to black belt.

 

[Badhabits]

I've trained with a lot of active marines. A lot. Including a year at an MMA school. My experience is that they're not necessary great fighters cause they're marines, it's that they don't wear down like most people.

 

[windwalker099]

Sure. Sort of. They have less training time than one of my yellow belts. Which is reasonable, because it is, as was mentioned 2025. If a soldier is fighting hand to hand, lots of things have gone badly wrong.

As with most things "what" is taught is not the same as "why"

In the video, the instructor mentions all their training is weapons based.
In MMA, it's competition based
In TMA, it's style based with or with out weapons

In the military, what is taught evolves as weapons and tactics change to meet modern demands.
In MMA, what is taught adapts according to the rule set and the strategies needed to counter specific adversaries.
In TMA, what is taught typically remains consistent, preserving the style and techniques according to tradition.


Most CMA have training for Sanda separate from their formal training.
Sanda their version of MMA with very few if any traditional arts feilding competitors for it as examples of
their style in use. Some have tried, in name only..

People in China familiar with the style asking why what was traditionally trained not used as would be expected,
or claimed...

2 very distinctive styles based on totally different historical methods
training for the same type of format.

For some the tradition is tied to the culture ,
making the main point one of preserving the tradition.

For others.

The main point is to win the event or to survive the event.
Different training focus.