The Resurgence of Traditional Martial Arts in Modern Mixed Martial Arts

[windwalker099]

Interesting, saw this teacher in Beijing...awhile back

 

[Badhabits]

This thread has prompted me to create my own style. It will beat everything else. You'll know how to defeat someone in a cage match, point sparring, how to maim and kill, expert self defense, how to bodyguard your loved ones, how to use and defend against all types of weapons, how to do breaking, you'll be a master of kicking, punching, be in the best athletic shape ever, build mental resilience, fighting spirit, killer instinct, be an expert grappler, an expert in throwing, kata, body mechanics, fighting multiple people at once, and no one will be able to injure you at all. It will be the end all new combat system. It will settle all kinds of silly debates on what's best. Because it will be the best at everything, under every possible circumstance. Sounds silly doesn't it.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

This thread has prompted me to create my own style. It will beat everything else. You'll know how to defeat someone in a cage match, point sparring, how to maim and kill, expert self defense, how to bodyguard your loved ones, how to use and defend against all types of weapons, how to do breaking, you'll be a master of kicking, punching, be in the best athletic shape ever, build mental resilience, fighting spirit, killer instinct, be an expert grappler, an expert in throwing, kata, body mechanics, fighting multiple people at once, and no one will be able to injure you at all. It will be the end all new combat system. It will settle all kinds of silly debates on what's best. Because it will be the best at everything, under every possible circumstance. Sounds silly doesn't it.

Clackledockling?

 

[drop bear]

Combatives are still taught,,,

Everyone fails that.

It is designed that way.

 

[drop bear]

Anyway.

Let's look at the Rokus journey.
So long time Aikido guy, did MMA and ultimately discovered critical thinking.

TMA has never had a good vehicle to test their theories exept for stories, anecdotes and death matches. All of which are a bloody stupid way of exploring the veracity of your system.

MMA came along and created a platform for that test. The internet came along and allowed us access to information we were not able to get before. And the culture changed that allowed instructors to loose publicity on the basis that loosing was better for their development.

Now you can walk in to a gym. And within a pretty wide spectrum try out your ideas at a level you feel comfortable with.

You can also try non sportive ideas using the same theme.

Rokus getting handled at the lowest intensity of sparring that was possible.

So. We will see more TMA in MMA as TMA learns more about how fighting works.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So your reason for training or studying a martial art is to fight with it.

Yes that is what it's for. Anything else beyond that is just a preference. Me using Jow Ga Kung for fighting is what it's designed for.
Martial Arts is the only thing in the world that equates being a master of it by not using it. I'm glad my doctor doesn't think that way. To be a top doctor means not to ever have to use his doctor skills.

If you aren't using the skills then that means you aren't sparring with what you train.

In my mind it would be like learning balance skills in Taji but never use them. It just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This thread has prompted me to create my own style. It will beat everything else. You'll know how to defeat someone in a cage match, point sparring, how to maim and kill, expert self defense, how to bodyguard your loved ones, how to use and defend against all types of weapons, how to do breaking, you'll be a master of kicking, punching, be in the best athletic shape ever, build mental resilience, fighting spirit, killer instinct, be an expert grappler, an expert in throwing, kata, body mechanics, fighting multiple people at once, and no one will be able to injure you at all. It will be the end all new combat system. It will settle all kinds of silly debates on what's best. Because it will be the best at everything, under every possible circumstance. Sounds silly doesn't it.

Not really. It's almost the exact thing a military does. When what they come up with is no longer the best then they grow and create something better.

It just doesn't seem realistic you because of where you live. There are some villages on this planet where you would be praying everything day that the village who hates your village doesn't come over to remind you thst people still use spears and arrows.

If people don't want to fight then that's fine bur don't say that the mastery of a fighting system is to not have to fight because that's not true. That's not being honest about one's skills and capabilities.

 

[Badhabits]

Not really. It's almost the exact thing a military does. When what they come up with is no longer the best then they grow and create something better.

It just doesn't seem realistic you because of where you live. There are some villages on this planet where you would be praying everything day that the village who hates your village doesn't come over to remind you thst people still use spears and arrows.

If people don't want to fight then that's fine bur don't say that the mastery of a fighting system is to not have to fight because that's not true. That's not being honest about one's skills and capabilities.

My post was meant in a light hearted sarcastic kinda way, not meant to be taken seriously. But....do you think one lifetime would be enough to master all those things?

 

[windwalker099]

Anyway.

Let's look at the Rokus journey.
So long time Aikido guy, did MMA and ultimately discovered critical thinking.

TMA has never had a good vehicle to test their theories exept for stories, anecdotes and death matches. All of which are a bloody stupid way of exploring the veracity of your system.

MMA came along and created a platform for that test. The internet came along and allowed us access to information we were not able to get before. And the culture changed that allowed instructors to loose publicity on the basis that loosing was better for their development.

Now you can walk in to a gym. And within a pretty wide spectrum try out your ideas at a level you feel comfortable with.

You can also try non sportive ideas using the same theme.

Rokus getting handled at the lowest intensity of sparring that was possible.

So. We will see more TMA in MMA as TMA learns more about how fighting works.

What makes Rokus, an Aikido master?
Does he represent Aikido, or only himself at whatever level he believes he has attained ?

Would have been more interesting with
Sensei Gozo Shioda

Is he considered an Aikido master ?

 

[marvin8]

What skill can MMA learn from TMA? This is a good question.

IMO, at least 1 technique that MMA can learn from TMA and that is the "embracing" throw. At least I have not seen many MMA guys use this in the ring yet. My teacher's brother was very good on this. His belly was like a spring that can bounce his opponent off the ground. If he smashes his opponent down head first with his downward force, it can be a finish fight move.

MMA has similar throws from wrestling, judo and sambo such as suplex, ura nage, pile driver, kata guruma, etc. Various throws can be used to “smash an opponent on their head first.” Do you have a video of any "TMA" guy doing that in a match/fight? Many TMAists choose to enter MMA to become better MAists and fight at a pofessional level.

Andrade smashes Namajunas head first with downward force as a finish move to become UFC Women's Strawweight Champion…

 

[drop bear]

What makes Rokus, an Aikido master?
Does he represent Aikido, or only himself at whatever level he believes he has attained ?

Would have been more interesting with
Sensei Gozo Shioda

Is he considered an Aikido master ?

Rokus was some sort of live in student turned full time teacher.

Otherwise it doesn't matter who he represents or who would have been better because he was the guy that did it.

 

[windwalker099]

Rokus was some sort of live in student turned full time teacher.

Otherwise it doesn't matter who he represents or who would have been better because he was the guy that did it.

You posted it, wondering what your intention was in posting his work?

The video is titled:
"Aikido Master Challenges Pro MMA Fighter (Gone Wrong)."

"he was the guy that did it"
does not mean his performance is the definitive measure of Aikido’s effectiveness.

Or did you believe he was (or is) an Aikido master?

 

[drop bear]

You posted it, wondering what your intention was in posting his work?

The video is titled:
"Aikido Master Challenges Pro MMA Fighter (Gone Wrong)."

"he was the guy that did it"
does not mean his performance is the definitive measure of Aikido’s effectiveness.

Or did you believe he was (or is) an Aikido master?

Yes he is an Aikido master.

His performance was what is expected from his prior training. He had never fought anyone and entered that experiment without the correct tools.

There is a bunch of back of house that makes fighting work. Timing, athleticism having been actually punched before would be helpful.

A general understanding how a fight is kind of going to go.

Which if someone has. They could take their Aikido and possibly use it on somebody.

So the purpose of the video is to demonstrate that the more we see TMA enter any sort of resisted, realistic dynamic. The more we will see TMA getting any of their stuff to work at all ever on anyone.

Then the more we will see TMA in MMA as they are actually able to pull off a move or two.

Which is why we see more esoteric stuff in MMA.

So a year later he returns with a vague idea of what fighting people is actually like.

 

[drop bear]

My whole point is you have to understand how these structures work in motion. Before you can make any technique work.

There is a whole bunch of concepts that make fighting work.

I could run a person through MMA training and never spar or roll. And never give realistic feedback. And the same thing would happen.

When we look at the resurgence of TMA in MMA. it is always TMA with realistic timing.

 

[JowGaWolf]

My post was meant in a light hearted sarcastic kinda way, not meant to be taken seriously. But....do you think one lifetime would be enough to master all those things?

Sorry about that. Nope, not in one lifetime. I look at all the non-martial arts stuff and those who were the greatest in those fields never really mastered their profession or skill. The only thing that holds true is that someone will come after them and better than "the master." I think martial arts is that same way.

The only real master of a martial art is the Top Person when a system dies out. The other thing that is interesting is that those who are called Masters are still open to learning. The best we can do is pick the parts that we enjoy and then go out and be good at those parts and remember the parts we aren't good at. Unfortunately for me. The age that I became good at Jow Ga kung is also the age where I will slowly become worse at some of the things I was good in.

 

[Badhabits]

Sorry about that. Nope, not in one lifetime. I look at all the non-martial arts stuff and those who were the greatest in those fields never really mastered their profession or skill. The only thing that holds true is that someone will come after them and better than "the master." I think martial arts is that same way.

The only real master of a martial art is the Top Person when a system dies out. The other thing that is interesting is that those who are called Masters are still open to learning. The best we can do is pick the parts that we enjoy and then go out and be good at those parts and remember the parts we aren't good at. Unfortunately for me. The age that I became good at Jow Ga kung is also the age where I will slowly become worse at some of the things I was good in.

I guess ultimately my perspective is this- I can fight a little. I've been in fights, done tons of sparring, did MMA for year (I know that's a very short time) etc. But if I were to attack a bona fide master of his art, I hold no delusion that I wouldn't be flat on my back before I knew what hit me. They wouldn't be having to actually fight with me. That to me is the height, and goal of training martial arts for combat/self defense.

 

[windwalker099]

Yes he is an Aikido master.

Have you met any Aikido Senseis?

"My Martial Arts Background – Rokas, the Aikido Guy"

If you consider him representative of an Aikido master, then for you, he might be.

However, based on the practitioners I’ve met, his level appears to be very basic or even nonexistent.

He lacks a fundamental understanding of irimi (入り身, entering) and tenkan (転換, pivoting/side-stepping). Without these essential skills, he seems afraid of getting hit, spends a lot of time just trying to avoid strikes—much like someone with no training would.

Considering him an Aikido master seems quite strange to me.


Within the taiji world, there are also people claiming to be taiji masters, listed as such by those trying to make a
point using someone who is not what they feel or claim to be.


Would anyone believe some one was a world class boxer with no fight record...
There are match ups by those who were world class in their time.

 

[JowGaWolf]

But if I were to attack a bona fide master of his art, I hold no delusion that I wouldn't be flat on my back before I knew what hit me. They wouldn't be having to actually fight with me. That to me is the height, and goal of training martial arts for combat/self defense.

A person will gain this ability long before they mastered what they are training. I'm sure there are some people you could do this to.

 

[drop bear]

Have you met any Aikido Senseis?

"My Martial Arts Background – Rokas, the Aikido Guy"

If you consider him representative of an Aikido master, then for you, he might be.

However, based on the practitioners I’ve met, his level appears to be very basic or even nonexistent.

He lacks a fundamental understanding of irimi (入り身, entering) and tenkan (転換, pivoting/side-stepping). Without these essential skills, he seems afraid of getting hit, spends a lot of time just trying to avoid strikes—much like someone with no training would.

Considering him an Aikido master seems quite strange to me.


Within the taiji world, there are also people claiming to be taiji masters, listed as such by those trying to make a
point using someone who is not what they feel or claim to be.


Would anyone believe some one was a world class boxer with no fight record...
There are match ups by those who were world class in their time.

Yeah. The point you are making is the point I am making.

Exept we are coming to different conclusions.

Your suggestion is that people who move around don't demonstrate Aikido mastery.

I am suggesting that it is because they are moving around that they don't demonstrate Aikido mastery.

So your masters will be guys who have hand picked their demonstration partners to present their art in its best possible light.

Which may be Aikido mastery. But it isn't a representation of fighting.

I mean look at this guy He manhandled the whole room. His Aikido must be heaps better than Rokus.

Rokus couldn't even handle one dude.

 

[windwalker099]

Yeah. The point you are making is the point I am making.

Exept we are coming to different conclusions.

Your suggestion is that people who move around don't demonstrate Aikido mastery.

I am suggesting that with out being able to show or use the defining skill sets of an art, one has not mastered it.

" Irimi (入身). Irimi refers to the concept of moving directly into the space of an opponent, rather than retreating or avoiding the attack. It is a fundamental principle in Aikido "

along with

" Tenkan (転換) is a fundamental movement that involves pivoting or turning the body to redirect an opponent's energy. It is often used in conjunction with Irimi (entering) to blend with an attack and neutralize it without relying on brute force."

I am suggesting that it is because they are moving around that they don't demonstrate Aikido mastery.

The skill sets, do not prevent movement. They do define the type and purpose of movement

So your masters will be guys who have hand picked their demonstration partners to present their art in its best possible light.
Which may be Aikido mastery. But it isn't a representation of fighting.

Not at all...
The uke's are picked because of their understanding, level, and ability to use "real" intent with out fear of injury
Allowing the Sensei to be more dynamic in his response with out fear of injuring the uke.

Aikido demonstrations are not intended to be a representation of fighting in the conventional sense. They are a display of principles—such as blending, redirection, and control—applied in a controlled environment.
It is said that Aikido's focus is on harmonizing with aggression rather than defeating an opponent, which is why it doesn't resemble competitive or combative fighting.

Can it be used competitively outside of its format of course, just not in the same way due to it's focus.
Why when one is said to have mastered the art, they should be able to demonstrate their mastery according to their level of it.

examples...

Karate, one armed.

MMA