The Resurgence of Traditional Martial Arts in Modern Mixed Martial Arts

[Kung Fu Wang]

Borrow this video from another thread. If all MMA guys train like this, the TMA guys will have no chance.

 

[Buka]

My Sifu said there is no such thing as self defense, there is only self offense.

Ooooh!

 

[Haruhiko]

Why

Could you elaborate?

Let me clarify:

Assuming both fighters are of an equally competent level, but one was used to restrictions because of UFC rulesets, it follows that

a) the UFC fighter may be at a disadvantage having not trained sufficiently for situations that simply don't occur or aren't allowed in the cage
b) the other fighter may use weapons, the environment, and ways of attacking completely alien to the UFC fighter

I don't see a grappler lasting very long against an equally experienced and strong opponent armed and trained in weaponry, let alone one using forbidden UFC moves like eye gouging, biting, pocket sand... I mean come on.

My main point is that the fight would "play out" completely differently to what you watch on the TV.

The UFC is useful in determining who is the best at UFC fighting, under UFC rules. That's about it.

 

[drop bear]

Let me clarify:

Assuming both fighters are of an equally competent level, but one was used to restrictions because of UFC rulesets, it follows that

a) the UFC fighter may be at a disadvantage having not trained sufficiently for situations that simply don't occur or aren't allowed in the cage
b) the other fighter may use weapons, the environment, and ways of attacking completely alien to the UFC fighter

I don't see a grappler lasting very long against an equally experienced and strong opponent armed and trained in weaponry, let alone one using forbidden UFC moves like eye gouging, biting, pocket sand... I mean come on.

My main point is that the fight would "play out" completely differently to what you watch on the TV.

The UFC is useful in determining who is the best at UFC fighting, under UFC rules. That's about it.

The issue is you can't be equally good.

Because you can't train moves that will cripple people the same way you can train moves that don't.

You can't even find experts in moves that cripple people because there is no money in that.

(OK. There is a nuance. A pro fighter has to use his techniques against other really good guys to earn a living.

A self defence illegal moves expert does not. They might earn a living teaching those moves. But they don'tearn a living doing those moves to other people)

 

[Badhabits]

The issue is you can't be equally good.

Because you can't train moves that will cripple people the same way you can train moves that don't.

You can't even find experts in moves that cripple people because there is no money in that.

(OK. There is a nuance. A pro fighter has to use his techniques against other really good guys to earn a living.

A self defence illegal moves expert does not. They might earn a living teaching those moves. But they don'tearn a living doing those moves to other people)

This is a good point thats irked me for a long time. How many true self defense "experts" are out there to learn from? To be an expert in something you have to have a lot of experience in it. Even a dozen true self defense experiences wouldn't make someone an expert. It's not enough experience. I've been in more than a dozen real rights in my youth. I'll still never claim to be an expert in fighting.

 

[Haruhiko]

This is a good point thats irked me for a long time. How many true self defense "experts" are out there to learn from? To be an expert in something you have to have a lot of experience in it. Even a dozen true self defense experiences wouldn't make someone an expert. It's not enough experience. I've been in more than a dozen real rights in my youth. I'll still never claim to be an expert in fighting.

They're typically employed by government agencies, military, or as private contractors. And they don't talk a lot about their experiences publicly.

 

[Badhabits]

They're typically employed by government agencies, military, or as private contractors. And they don't talk a lot about their experiences publicly.

Going to a Rory Miller seminar or something is on my bucket list

 

[windwalker099]

To be an expert in something you have to have a lot of experience in it. Even a dozen true self defense experiences wouldn't make someone an expert.

Would one consider this man to be an expert,

 

[JowGaWolf]

b) the other fighter may use weapons, the environment, and ways of attacking completely alien to the UFC fighter

Taking MMA doesn't remove this option from the person. There is a news report of an MMA fighter defending himself from 4 attackers in a home invasion crime. The MMA fighter stabbed one of the attacker's to death.

I train staff. If I ever have to use it, then my attacker will probably not have that luxury unless he takes my weapon.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Could you elaborate? We've seen instances of MMA fighters involved in street fights and according to news reports some of them did well against single and multiple attackers. There is enough video out there for this not to be theoretical discussion.

There are also a couple that got shot dead because they thought “i got this cause I’m a fighter”. That’s no shade on fighters, just that it’s not going to be a contest you can always punch your way out of.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Why.

I mean for example.

A UFC fighter can punch someone in the face hard enough to knock them out and then completely have their way with them. (They are really quite good at that generally)

Now there might be lethal strikes or moves that cause more damage
But that punch is enough damage to end a fight.

So regardless as to what is in a person's street arsenal. They still have to come up with some way of addressing that.

And there are not street moves that address that issue. There isn't an illegal move that prevents a person being counter punched.

You just have to be better at punching.

No, I just have to have friends, a gun, a good ambush spot, pepper spray, blackjack, the proper parking spot, etc. every one of those street moves works great on tough guys that think no one can beat them in a fight. Again, the mind set that you are going to get to square off and have some fair fight is not very likely to work with people who actually mean to hurt you. I’m not talking about a drunk in a bar, I’m talking about a couple guys who want to rob you or that you talked slick to. All that tough guy stuff goes out the window when you meet the real deal, you won’t know until it’s too late. We all need to be realistic about our limitations.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

The issue is you can't be equally good.

Because you can't train moves that will cripple people the same way you can train moves that don't.

You can't even find experts in moves that cripple people because there is no money in that.

(OK. There is a nuance. A pro fighter has to use his techniques against other really good guys to earn a living.

A self defence illegal moves expert does not. They might earn a living teaching those moves. But they don'tearn a living doing those moves to other people)

My family members made a living taking things from people. They usually asked nicely. If they had to take it from you by force they did it at the time and place of their choosing. The bill collectors had a 100% collection rate over a period of 37 years. I’m telling you that no matter how big or tough or skilled you might be, you were going to pay up. My father made a point of it. If it cost him 40k to get the 20k you owed, that was cost of doing business. You don’t need to believe me, but it’s absolutely true. Getting the idea in your head that you were going to fight against them would end…poorly.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

This is a good point thats irked me for a long time. How many true self defense "experts" are out there to learn from? To be an expert in something you have to have a lot of experience in it. Even a dozen true self defense experiences wouldn't make someone an expert. It's not enough experience. I've been in more than a dozen real rights in my youth. I'll still never claim to be an expert in fighting.

The opponent in a street won’t be a self defense guy, that’s not a thing. It probably won’t be an MA guy at all. We all train to stay out of that right? We are in the gym training not hanging out at the bar looking for trouble right?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Ooooh!

Like that? Could make a bumper sticker.

 

[JowGaWolf]

There are also a couple that got shot dead because they thought “i got this cause I’m a fighter”. That’s no shade on fighters, just that it’s not going to be a contest you can always punch your way out of.

But that's the same reality for everyone. Being a fighter isn't going to make a person more likely to get shot or less likely. There are non-fighters who have the same mentality that they can punch their way out of it. We hear about those type of people on the news almost everyday. Someone gets into an argument, a fight breaks out, then someone gets shot or stabbed.

 

[windwalker099]

But that's the same reality for everyone. Being a fighter isn't going to make a person more likely to get shot or less likely. There are non-fighters who have the same mentality that they can punch their way out of it. We hear about those type of people on the news almost everyday. Someone gets into an argument, a fight breaks out, then someone gets shot or stabbed.

"Being a fighter"

might make them unable to not "fight"
or maybe more importantly not understanding its not "fighting" as they'er trained to ..

"A world champion Thai-style kickboxer was shot to death in the middle of a busy San Francisco street Friday after he chased down a hit-and-run driver who had slammed into his parked car minutes earlier. Alex Gong, 30, was pronounced dead at the scene on Fifth Street near Harrison Street.Aug 2, 2003"

Met and talked with him a week before this happened...

 

[JowGaWolf]

No, I just have to have friends, a gun, a good ambush spot, pepper spray, blackjack, the proper parking spot, etc. every one of those street moves works great on tough guys that think no one can beat them in a fight. Again, the mind set that you are going to get to square off and have some fair fight is not very likely to work with people who actually mean to hurt you. I’m not talking about a drunk in a bar, I’m talking about a couple guys who want to rob you or that you talked slick to. All that tough guy stuff goes out the window when you meet the real deal, you won’t know until it’s too late. We all need to be realistic about our limitations.

I've never been in a fair fight before. If I'm lucky I want to have the advantage. The reason I was in the fight the first place was because my attacker thought it was to his advantage.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

But that's the same reality for everyone. Being a fighter isn't going to make a person more likely to get shot or less likely. There are non-fighters who have the same mentality that they can punch their way out of it. We hear about those type of people on the news almost everyday. Someone gets into an argument, a fight breaks out, then someone gets shot or stabbed.

Absolutely true. That’s my point.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

"Being a fighter"

might make them unable to not "fight"
or maybe more importantly not understanding its not "fighting" as they'er trained to ..

"A world champion Thai-style kickboxer was shot to death in the middle of a busy San Francisco street Friday after he chased down a hit-and-run driver who had slammed into his parked car minutes earlier. Alex Gong, 30, was pronounced dead at the scene on Fifth Street near Harrison Street.Aug 2, 2003"

Met and talked with him a week before this happened...

Well, Alex is a great example of a great fighter and a generally nice guy who ran up on a guy in a car and got shot to death. He is one of the ones I’m talking about. It’s a sad story. One of my friends was a student of his back then.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I've never been in a fair fight before. If I'm lucky I want to have the advantage. The reason I was in the fight the first place was because my attacker thought it was to his advantage.

I’ve seen a lot of violence in person. I’ve done violence, had it done to me too. I’ve helped put a lot of people back together after violence. I’ve seen people die from it on the street in front of me. I’ve had a few die on the table while we did everything to save them and failed. It’s so easy to talk about what we would do and such, but you just won’t know until it happens. I was 5 the first time I saw someone get shot to death. At 12 I found my grandmother with 2 gunshot wounds to the head on her couch. At 16 my friend died from a sub dural bleed after a fight where he got stomped. At 19 I watched a good friend get stabbed 11 times by three guys we had thrown out of the club a week before. I’ve been robbed, carjacked, stabbed twice, shot at, beaten unconscious, etc. all by the age of 21. I’m well aware of what street violence is, but it never ever happens in a vacuum, there is always a chaos factor. After I moved up north and changed my everything around, these things sort of just stopped happening around me. Then I started training seriously and life improved dramatically. I have a biased opinion due to my upbringing and experiences.

Borrow this video from another thread. If all MMA guys train like this, the TMA guys will have no chance.

Because no TMA guys do this?