The Resurgence of Traditional Martial Arts in Modern Mixed Martial Arts

[drop bear]

Agreed, i am not arguing for or against. I just an not a fan of unsubstantiated generalizations

Fair enough.

I am just arguing Russell's tea cup pretty much.

Which i feel is a good critical thinking standard.

 

[windwalker099]

But it wasn't teaching me fighting.

What do you feel fighting is ?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Today I did rolling with punches against two competitive bjj guys (one just won worlds) and an armature MMA fighter. Under the coaching of a former UFC fighter.

The day I got interested in Sanda tournament (kick/punch/throw, no ground game), the day I was no longer interested in Chinese wrestling tournament.

SC -> Sanda (SC guys won't stay in SC forever).

Does BJJ guys feel the same way? BJJ -> MMA (do some BJJ guys stay in BJJ forever.

 

[drop bear]

What do you feel fighting is ?

I don't have a clear definition. But I have competed and I have had people try to kill me outside of sport.

And I feel the term fighting applies to both.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I don't have a clear definition. But I have competed and I have had people try to kill me outside of sport.

And I feel the term fighting applies to both.

Ok..how does this justify an unverifiable generalization about TMA?

If it does then I’m justified in saying MMA is fixed and there are no real fights, like pro wrestling….. I don’t believe that, but based on the generalizations about TMA i am justified in making that statement.

And i have not fought in a ring but in my years in physical security i have had folks want to hurt me and threaten to kill me and my TMA worked well. And at one job i had 60 conflicts in 90 days, and one actually was a pro wrestler. They had a mental health and detox unit at that hospital

 

[Steve]

Today I did rolling with punches against two competitive bjj guys (one just won worlds) and an armature MMA fighter. Under the coaching of a former UFC fighter.

So I may not be traing to compete. But I am training with guys who know their craft.

If I trained against a bunch of white belts. And I was coaching. I would be getting a different outcome.

Even if i was doing the same drills.

If my entire school culture was to never compete and we had no external influence from guys who are really good or really competitive.

I would get a different outcome again.

And I have come from schools like that where the culture is to be collapso tapout monkeys. It was great for my confidence. A whole bunch of stuff worked. But it wasn't teaching me fighting.

I moved from that culture to a sport culture as an experienced martial artists. And struggled to perform against beginners simply because they really wanted to get me.

If the task was to defend a takedown. They would take me down untill I stopped them.

This change in culture and the increas in ability of the people I train with has added more depth to my functionality

Totally agree. And to take it one step further, even in a school like this, the people who compete and apply what they're learning are going to progress faster than those who don't. You'll still get better outcomes relative to the schools where the culture doesn't actively encourage and train for application. But choosing not to compete even in a great school is going to slow your progress down. There are, of course, a lot of good reasons to do this (e.g., age, injuries, long term health,), but there's still a tradeoff being made.

 

[windwalker099]

the people who compete and apply what they're learning are going to progress faster than those who don't.

Progress in what ?
Competition ?

A common example for those practicing taiji trying to algin what they do with what was written of past masters:

"Master Wang competed regularly in push hands events in Taiwan, with both national and international participants. He was push hands champion for several years winning international competitions. However, he felt discouraged because so much physical force and technique was required to defeat an opponent.

He had read the tai chi classics which talked about softness and "four ounces moving a thousand pounds", but this was not evident in tai chi push hands in present use. Only after meeting Grandmaster Huang did he realize that soft power could be achieved.

He studied with Huang, when he visited Taiwan and realized he had to give up his prior emphasis on strength and technique."

You'll still get better outcomes relative to the schools where the culture doesn't actively encourage and train for application. But choosing not to compete even in a great school is going to slow your progress down.

As mentioned earlier, the metric most people use is 'competition,' but this doesn't always align with the factors people use to judge skill or progress in a style.

Therefore, one can win the event but still lose in the sense of not applying what they have trained for to achieve that win.

 

[Steve]

Progress in what ?
Competition ?

Progress in whatever it is you're training to do. I think any time "Traditional" or "TMA" is compared by anyone to "MMA" or "Combat Sports", the only concrete, constructive thing to discuss is which training models more reliably produce good results. If you're talking about training, the model that embraces application will always deliver reliable, predictable results. And the shorter and more direct the line is between what you're learning and what you're doing, the faster and more reliable the results are.

In instructional design, things start with a needs analysis. Basically, what's the training need? In any competitive style, the outcome is very clear. Take wrestling, for example. You get a scrawny, 14 year old kid on the wrestling team and within 3 months, they'll be competent. In 4 years, they can be considered functional experts.

Apply that same logic to any martial arts school or style now. Some are going to produce reliable, consistent results. Some are not. And where they don't, it's because they don't have a clear outcome in mind, or they aren't training and applying skills that will lead to that outcome... or maybe both.

As example

"Master Wang competed regularly in push hands events in Taiwan, with both national and international participants. He was push hands champion for several years winning international competitions. However, he felt discouraged because so much physical force and technique was required to defeat an opponent.

He had read the tai chi classics which talked about softness and "four ounces moving a thousand pounds", but this was not evident in tai chi push hands in present use. Only after meeting Grandmaster Huang did he realize that soft power could be achieved.

He studied with Huang, when he visited Taiwan and realized he had to give up his prior emphasis on strength and technique."



As mentioned earlier, the metric most people use is 'competition,' but this doesn't always align with the factors people use to judge skill or progress in a style.

Therefore, one can win the event but still lose in the sense of not applying what they have trained for to achieve that win.

You're illustrating my point exactly. I presume he continued on to routinely move a thousand pounds with his four ounces after this? Maybe so... sounds like he had a clear goal. Does that help him in a fight? I don't know, but at least it's a clear outcome. And if he didn't, well, at least he got really good at push hands by applying his technique.

 

[windwalker099]

Does that help him in a fight?

what is a fight ?

Apply that same logic to any martial arts school or style now. Some are going to produce reliable, consistent results. Some are not. And where they don't, it's because they don't have a clear outcome in mind, or they aren't training and applying skills that will lead to that outcome... or maybe both.

What would be this clear outcome ?

MMA trains people to compete in MMA events, with the outcome being preparation for that specific competition.

Martial arts (MA) trains people in the style or method they are interested in, with the outcome being the development of skill within that style or method.

The way progress is measured depends on the standards and criteria specific to the style or method being trained.

 

[windwalker099]

And if he didn't, well, at least he got really good at push hands by applying his technique.

He doesn't do push hands anymore as I understand.
His practice is not about push hands.

He did train those interested in competition understanding
his methods could be applied to what they competed in.

 

[drop bear]

Totally agree. And to take it one step further, even in a school like this, the people who compete and apply what they're learning are going to progress faster than those who don't. You'll still get better outcomes relative to the schools where the culture doesn't actively encourage and train for application. But choosing not to compete even in a great school is going to slow your progress down. There are, of course, a lot of good reasons to do this (e.g., age, injuries, long term health,), but there's still a tradeoff being made.

Yes. And that becomes pretty evident. When they start piecing me up.

Which I am having a 16 year old do to me at the moment.

 

[drop bear]

Progress in what ?
Competition ?

No. Progress in that skill.

Competition as a development tool. Not as an end result.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What do you feel fighting is ?

- Battlefield combat.
- law enforcement, bodyguard, secret service daily job.
- street fight.
- unfriendly challenge.
- friendly challenge.
- tournament fight.
- school sparring.

 

[marvin8]

He doesn't do push hands anymore as I understand.
His practice is not about push hands.

He did train those interested in competition understanding
his methods could be applied to what they competed in.

Per Henry Wang Tai Chi School and Casey Payne, they "can't direct energy at an unwilling person and make them move. And it's completely useless in serious street situations..."

Henry Wang Tai Chi School,

Can Master Wang direct his energy at an unwilling or unaware person and make them move? No

Per Casey Payne a student of Henry Wang on "search center,"

"The stuff in the video of me I can do to other martial artists to varying degrees. Doing it in a competitive/martial environment would never make any sense. That kind of stuff is always for demoing/practicing stuff....

I'm not sure why people are so focused on competitive/martial utility of this stuff. For any competitive situation it is BY FAR better to focus on the foundational skills of that format. As for martial utility, like in the streets, it would be completely useless in serious situations."

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Does that help him in a fight? I don't know, but at least it's a clear outcome. And if he didn't, well, at least he got really good at push hands by applying his technique.

This is my concern. You can be the Taiji push hand champion in the world. But can you handle a boxer's or wrestler's challenge? If you can't, what does that mean? IMO, it just means your MA skill cannot handle people from outside of your MA system.

In Taiwan, one time 2 praying mantis guys went to a Baji school and challenge every Baji student. A Zimen guy also challenged a praying mantis master in the park. Cross styles challenges were very common back then.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Progress in what ?
Competition ?

If you have knocked/taken down 1000 guys, the chance that you can knock/take down the 1001 guy will be high.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Per Henry Wang Tai Chi School and Casey Payne, they "can't direct energy at an unwilling person and make them move. And it's completely useless in serious street situations..." ... it is BY FAR better to focus on the foundational skills of that format.

This is what I don't understand. If one can spend his time to develop kick, punch, lock, throw, ground skill, why does that person want to spend time to develop "push"?

 

[windwalker099]

Per Henry Wang Tai Chi School and Casey Payne, they "can't direct energy at an unwilling person and make them move. And it's completely useless in serious street situations..."

Hasn’t been my experience nor those that I trained under or work with .

Most teachers that work with this kind of work say things in public, that are not echoed in private .

For those who do this kind of work, they understand .

the purpose of posting Henry’s work was to show that progress, is measurable in different ways, depending on the type of work that one engages in .