The Resurgence of Traditional Martial Arts in Modern Mixed Martial Arts

[windwalker099]

in this talk on how to develop critical thinking, how to be honest with yourself, how to test your ideas against reality and much more.

strongly agree with this approach, with the caveat that its effectiveness depends on what one is testing.


My own work is rooted in this approach, focusing on empirically-based Taiji practice, theory, and application.
Reflecting the teachings of Master Zhang Yongliang, as well as other renowned Taiji masters.

Zhang Shifu's approach to any question asked was always, "Try it. Do what you want to do."

His work was very focused. While some aspects might have been useful for other methods, most of what they practiced was not applicable to our practice, as it was based on very different theories that made it work.

Within the Taiji community, there is a growing resurgence of interest among modern-day practitioners in rediscovering the historical skill sets of these noted masters.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I think a lot of this depends on their training and level of competition/fighting.

An MMA guy who's practicing full contact and participating in 2-3 fights per year, yeah they're going to be messed up by 60. An mma guy who's not competing, practicing light contact, and isn't going hardcore; if he continues til he's 80 he's going to be in pretty good health. And still be able to fight pretty well. I'd also assume at some point during that 50+year time spent training he learns soft skills and how to control without relying on superior speed/strength/reaction, given that he's using a style that adapts other styles.

Doing MMA without competing? What is that? Hitting bags and sparring? I’m not trying to be sarcastic it’s just that I wonder what that actually looks like? It seems that it’s cyclic in training leading up to the next fight. So, you have however much work that needs to get done in prep and weight to manage for the next rep. Without the competition focus and constant sparring aspect, I’m having a hard time seeing any distinction between that and how I train.

 

[windwalker099]

There is no evidence of skilled fighters.
If they do not fight somewhere that people can see it.

The lack of public evidence does not negate the existence of skilled fighters, as martial traditions often prioritize functionality, secrecy, or personal development over public performance. Similarly, those who evaluate the skill of others may lack the necessary skill or experience to accurately recognize or assess, examples of skill—or perceived lack of skill—they observe or use as references.

 

[marvin8]

So what is this post saying about the part of my post thAT you highlighted

"It is just I am not a fan of generalizations without data backing them up."

I am saying I “Agree” with your statement.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Doing MMA without competing? What is that? Hitting bags and sparring? I’m not trying to be sarcastic it’s just that I wonder what that actually looks like? It seems that it’s cyclic in training leading up to the next fight. So, you have however much work that needs to get done in prep and weight to manage for the next rep. Without the competition focus and constant sparring aspect, I’m having a hard time seeing any distinction between that and how I train.

It looks like training any martial art without competing. You hit bags, and spar, yes, but that's not all.

Example if I were to make a curriculum, and assume only one class a day. Places I've trained at normally have multiple classes per day letting people choose what they want to work on, fyi, but for an example this works better.

Mondays/thursdays you do judo, which would consist of warm up, learning what is appropriate for your level for most of the class, then randori for the last 15 minutes (4 3-minute rounds with a minute break in between). During that time you'd be encouraged to use whatever you learned in class.

Tuesdays/Fridays would be muay thai. This is a lot of padwork and sparring. The first 15-20 minutes would be the instructor going over a specific strategy, then if you're a beginner, you'd work with an experienced student or teacher to learn proper form, or if you're more experienced just getting practice and reps in.

Wednesdays/Saturdays are bjj. The instructor shows the move of the day, beginners get separated and drill basics (positional stuff, how to scape mount/sidemount/guard/etc., very basic submissions), while everyone else spends the remainder of the time doing round robin grappling.

Sundays are mixed day. This would be 2 hours. Ideally run by someone who has mma experience, or ranks in the above arts, the first hour would be spent practicing whatever the students who arrived want to work on, and the second would be mma sparring - you start at distance, do striking, and you're free to throw if you wish. After you throw someone, you're free to either back up and let them back up, strike (lightly, this is practice) on the ground while they try to recover, or follow up and get to ground grappling.

Again, the above is assuming one class a day. My experience is you'll have 2-3 classes a day, but also more off days. I can't say if it's different than how you practice, since I don't know how you train. But from my experience with hybrid art, I'd say the biggest difference is in segregating the days rather than trying to fit everything in to one class, and having specific (and different) rules for sparring depending on the class in question.

 

[Buka]

Doing MMA without competing? What is that? Hitting bags and sparring? I’m not trying to be sarcastic it’s just that I wonder what that actually looks like? It seems that it’s cyclic in training leading up to the next fight. So, you have however much work that needs to get done in prep and weight to manage for the next rep. Without the competition focus and constant sparring aspect, I’m having a hard time seeing any distinction between that and how I train.

A buddy of mine who became one of my instructors had an octagon in his dojo. A small one, it was tough to run away.

We trained MMA in it all the time, but without trying to kill each other. Jorge Rivera used to work with us a lot. He wanted to fly me to Puerto Rico to compete in an MMA card he was putting on. I was fifty at the time, so was my opponent. I wanted to go but my wife said “If you do, don’t come back.”(Looking back, I should have gone.)

But I never competed in MMA. I was a judge in MMA in Mass before I moved back here, but never competed.
But I have a pretty good idea what it’s like. F’n nasty, but kind of fun.

In my opinion, you can’t train for MMA without a cage to train in.

 

[marvin8]

strongly agree with this approach, with the caveat that its effectiveness depends on what one is testing.


My own work is rooted in this approach, focusing on empirically-based Taiji practice, theory, and application...

Within the Taiji community, there is a growing resurgence of interest among modern-day practitioners in rediscovering the historical skill sets of these noted masters.

Per Boghossian when using critical thinking, one tests the effectiveness of the skill sets they’re working on by applying them in sparring/fighting.

 

[drop bear]

The lack of public evidence does not negate the existence of skilled fighters, as martial traditions often prioritize functionality, secrecy, or personal development over public performance. Similarly, those who evaluate the skill of others may lack the necessary skill or experience to accurately recognize or assess, examples of skill—or perceived lack of skill—they observe or use as references.

It negates the evidence that they are competent fighters though. Because there is no public evidence.

The idea you have to understand a skill that is measurable is not logical.

I don't have an in depth knowledge of running. But in a race I can see who is faster.

 

[drop bear]

True, but does not mean they do not exist

Lack of evidence doesn't mean they do exist either.

 

[drop bear]

Doing MMA without competing? What is that? Hitting bags and sparring? I’m not trying to be sarcastic it’s just that I wonder what that actually looks like? It seems that it’s cyclic in training leading up to the next fight. So, you have however much work that needs to get done in prep and weight to manage for the next rep. Without the competition focus and constant sparring aspect, I’m having a hard time seeing any distinction between that and how I train.

Yeah. It basically looks the same as MMA training for competition. Just for people who's focus is not competition.

Veterans MMA is a good example. Where it is a vehicle for soldiers to combat mental health issues via MMA.

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some compete, some don't. The idea isn't to create a winning competition team.

The difference is that they use live feedback from people who do compete or did compete. And they do spar or wrestle so you are still live training with quality guys.

Rather than getting away with stuff you may technically not be able to get away with because you are versing inexperienced guys or guys who are not really trying to keep you honest.

Police or industry guys are another avenue where people will train MMA. (Or mostly BJJ) Not for competition focus but for work proficiency.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There is no evidence of skilled fighters.
If they do not fight somewhere that people can see it.

Witness is what's lacking in TMA.

Old saying said, "If you don't spar/wrestle for 3 days, your arms and legs will no longer be yours." How can a TMA master be able to maintain his fighting skill without testing his fighting skill on his partners? If that TMA master does test his fighting skill, there should be some witness.

If everybody who spar/wrestle with you, they can't land a punch/kick on you, or they can't take you down, you should be famous.

 

[marvin8]

It negates the evidence that they are competent fighters though. Because there is no public evidence.

The idea you have to understand a skill that is measurable is not logical.

I don't have an in depth knowledge of running. But in a race I can see who is faster.

Meanwhile, there is public evidence of similar people being non-competent in their skills in sparring/fighting.

Stiggy McCool
Oct 26, 2013

This meet-up on the 26th October 2013 occurred after John Fung invited me to come feel his Tai Chi skills for myself. I took him up on his offer and I will let the video speak for itself. We started out with with just basic free-style push-hands with no real emphasis on scoring points by getting the opponent out of the ring. Then we switched to including strikes but only targeting the body.

The whole debacle started when I commented that a video (like the one below) that his demonstration was very contrived and wouldn't work against non-compliant people. John Fung challenge me to come to Sydney ... so I did.

• john fung

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The lack of public evidence does not negate the existence of skilled fighters, as martial traditions often prioritize functionality, secrecy, or personal development over public performance.

If you

1. test your MA skill against people from outside of your MA system, how can you hide your secret?
2. only test your MA skill within your own MA system, how do you know that your MA skill will work against people from other MA systems?
3. don't test your MA skill at all, how can you maintain your fighting ability?

 

[windwalker099]

The difference is that they use live feedback from people who do compete or did compete. And they do spar or wrestle so you are still live training with quality guys.

Rather than getting away with stuff you may technically not be able to get away with because you are versing inexperienced guys or guys who are not really trying to keep you honest.

Would disagree regarding the supposed difference.

Boxers box, wrestlers wrestle, etc. All of them use live training, as do many practitioners of TMA in their training.

To me, the difference lies more in the focus of the training—whether it is geared toward competition or not.

The examples some people attempt to use often seem to involve those who are not considered masters of their craft. Furthermore, it appears that some individuals have not met anyone who could truly be considered a master. They then go on to link the lack of public visibility to an assumption of a lack of skill, which is not necessarily valid.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

To me, the difference lies more in the focus of the training—whether it is geared toward competition or not.

Do you agree that we train MA so we can develop some MA skills that can deal with everybody, not just dealing with people within the same MA system?

If you

- agree, test MA skill against people from different MA systems is a must.
- don't agree, what's the value that a certain MA skill can only work in your own MA system?

When I was young, my long fist teacher didn't like that I competed in Karate tournament. I told him that I liked to test my long fist skill against Karate people (no MMA back then). One time I asked him how to deal with my Karate opponent's earth strategy. His letter said that I should pay more attention on Wude. Even today, I still don't understand what "Wude" has anything to do with "earth strategy".

 

[windwalker099]

Stiggy McCool: The whole debacle started when I commented that a video (like the one below) that his demonstration was very contrived and wouldn't work against non-compliant people. John Fung challenge me to come to Sydney ... so I did.

It doesn’t make sense to label push hands as "non-compliant." By its very nature and context, push hands is a compliant exercise designed to train sensitivity, balance, and the ability to yield and redirect force. Compliance is an inherent part of the practice, particularly during its training stages.

How someone’s skills hold up when facing an opponent of greater size, weight, or physical ability is a different matter altogether. This aspect can often provide a more well-rounded perspective on their true level of skill and effectiveness.

In the video, John’s skill was unable to overcome the differences in size or weight. However, there is (or was) another clip of Stewart dealing with one of John’s students of similar size and weight, where the results were much better.

Note: I have never met John, but over the years, we have corresponded. Our practices share many similarities in approach.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Would disagree regarding the supposed difference.

Boxers box, wrestlers wrestle, etc. All of them use live training, as do many practitioners of TMA in their training.

To me, the difference lies more in the focus of the training—whether it is geared toward competition or not.

The examples some people attempt to use often seem to involve those who are not considered masters of their craft. Furthermore, it appears that some individuals have not met anyone who could truly be considered a master. They then go on to link the lack of public visibility to an assumption of a lack of skill, which is not necessarily valid.

It seems like you're making an erroneous assumption that everyone who particiaotes in an art that has competition competes.

This would be like assuming everyone who practices cma competes in sanda, and using the skill of sanda fighters ti evaluate all cma.

 

[Steve]

And how long have you been on MT?

Pick a style any style, including MMA, there has been a poster somewhere along the way that posted such a thing, and I am pretty sure you know it. A few years back when I took things much more seriously we have been on opposite ends of those discussions too.

LOL. I don't remember it quite the same way you do. There's a lot of pigeon holing that goes on around here, and memory is a funny thing.