The notion that you have to throw/submit yourself in Aikido or get your wrist broken

drop bear said:
Oblique kicks. It has been a sport oriented technique for ever.
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That technique actually existed before Muay Thai became a sport and it's not a Muay Thai only technique. You can find it among many different TMA systems. Muay Thai the sport can be traced back to the 1700's. Before Muay Thai the sport there was Muay Boran.
I can literally show the Jow Ga equivalent of almost all of these techniques from the video below in Jow Ga forms. Jow Ga is made from 3 fighting systems, one of which is Hung Ga, that was created in the 17th century as well.

Both of these Time lines are more than enough to classify the system as a TMA. I have already shown in video that this kick can target more than just the knee and can be thrown at various heights and various stance levels. I even did it the kick on a hill. Where this kick lands, is insignificant as it doesn't effect the mechanics that are required.to actually do this kick.

Techniques that were effect back then are often found in other TMA systems, either as the same technique or a variation of that technique. I can also show the oblique kick in my Jow ga form.

Not only can I show you, I can also perform it that part of the form from a functional fighting posture vs performance form. Again where this kick is thrown does not matter because be it abdomen high, knee, or shin, it requires the the same mechanics. Think of the oblique kick in the same way that you think of the jab. More than one system has it and uses it
 
Muay thai traditional dance. Looks like TMA to me


 
dvcochran said:
Then where would you say they came from?
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If I'm reading this as I think you mean it, then this is what I'm saying. Stuff doesn't just pop out of the blue. "Hey lets make a new sport. Lets call it Muay Thai and lets make a bunch of stuff to do in it. Like... say we'll do a kick that looks like this, or a punch that looks like this. If we want to use elbows, what should that look like." Combat sports often come from functional combat skills that existed before the sport.

The sport part was usually just a safer way to train for the combat. Sort of like how animals play fight which actually helps them prepare the skills that they will use in a real fight.
 
JowGaWolf said:
That technique actually existed before Muay Thai became a sport and it's not a Muay Thai only technique. You can find it among many different TMA systems. Muay Thai the sport can be traced back to the 1700's. Before Muay Thai the sport there was Muay Boran.
I can literally show the Jow Ga equivalent of almost all of these techniques from the video below in Jow Ga forms. Jow Ga is made from 3 fighting systems, one of which is Hung Ga, that was created in the 17th century as well.

Both of these Time lines are more than enough to classify the system as a TMA. I have already shown in video that this kick can target more than just the knee and can be thrown at various heights and various stance levels. I even did it the kick on a hill. Where this kick lands, is insignificant as it doesn't effect the mechanics that are required.to actually do this kick.

Techniques that were effect back then are often found in other TMA systems, either as the same technique or a variation of that technique. I can also show the oblique kick in my Jow ga form.

Not only can I show you, I can also perform it that part of the form from a functional fighting posture vs performance form. Again where this kick is thrown does not matter because be it abdomen high, knee, or shin, it requires the the same mechanics. Think of the oblique kick in the same way that you think of the jab. More than one system has it and uses it
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So when you say MMA is discovering the validity of techniques from TMA. You are talking about Muay Thai?

As if MMA hasn't been drawing from Muay Thai from the outset. Or muay thai schools like Tiger haven't been churning out MMA champions.

The is also this obscure TMA called wrestling that MMA has just discovered the validity of

 
drop bear said:
So when you say MMA is discovering the validity of techniques from TMA. You are talking about Muay Thai?
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In some cases yes, depending on the technique that is being used. In other cases no, because the technique isn't found in Muay Thai but in another system. I use the term TMA because it's general enough to include different systems without having to name each one.

I could spend time and point out individual systems like those who use long fist. For example, some of these punches are found in long fist systems but not in Muay Thai. Muay Thai isn't a long fist system so I wouldn't include Muay thai for a specific punching technique that it doesn't have.

Or I can just keep it general and just say TMA. Especially since the MMA fanboys prefer to speak in general terms by saying TMA techniques don't work in MMA environments.
drop bear said:
As if MMA hasn't been drawing from Muay Thai from the outset
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What is pulled from Muay Thai is very limited in comparison to all the techniques that make up Muay Thai. Most MMA fighters just do basic kicking and kneeing techniques (Kicks to the legs and inner thigh). Those can be learned easily and quickly in comparison to the oblique kick. Which is probably why we don't see more people use it, even though it's effective. It just takes too long to learn it and to be effective with it.

This is the same with not seeing many sweeps in MMA. Sweeps are effective but they aren't easy to learn and even harder to time. Once you get over those to obstacles then it's easy. But it takes time to do this and not everyone learns the sweeps at the same rate. Sweeping is an advance technique, sweeping front leg is like supper advance because you have to drive the power differently.

drop bear said:
The is also this obscure TMA called wrestling that MMA has just discovered the validity of
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Wrestling is a system not a technique. You should know me be better than that.. I'm not one of those fantasy martial arts people, that just make stuff off the top of their head. I don't know how many times I've said that I spar to learn. I don't just do what is easy and throw away the difficult stuff. I work out a technique until I can figure out how to use it correctly. I don't know how many times I've stated that I enjoy talking to other people how they do certain techniques in their system because it helps me find out how to apply the same or similar technique in my system. I put a lot of thought time and research into what I do, what I train, and how it applies to going against other systems.

Not only have I've shown sparring videos of my skill set, I've done videos to share how I apply certain techniques to help clarify mechanics. If you want to share knowledge fine. If you just want to make smart remarks about something that I've never stated. Then you are just wasting your time.

You should know me better than that.
 
drop bear said:
Oblique kicks. It has been a sport oriented technique for ever.


There is no suddenly MMA has pulled this kick from TMA.
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Name another MMA fighter, other than Jon Jones, who successfully does the Oblique kick. Lets see how many you can name. Keep in mind just how long Jon Jones has been doing the technique in MMA so I expect to see a good list of other fighters known for using it.
 
JowGaWolf said:
Name another MMA fighter, other than Jon Jones, who successfully does the Oblique kick. Lets see how many you can name. Keep in mind just how long Jon Jones has been doing the technique in MMA so I expect to see a good list of other fighters known for using it.
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Kyle noke

Holly holms threw one against Ronda Rousey pretty much off the bat.

Royce Gracie was mad keen for a knee kick.

 
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drop bear said:
Kyle noke

Holly holms threw one against Ronda Rousey pretty much off the bat.

Royce Gracie was mad keen for a knee kick.

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That's the side kick to the knee, not the oblique kick which uses the rear leg and turns the foot outward. 2 different mechanics.
 
JowGaWolf said:
If I'm reading this as I think you mean it, then this is what I'm saying. Stuff doesn't just pop out of the blue. "Hey lets make a new sport. Lets call it Muay Thai and lets make a bunch of stuff to do in it. Like... say we'll do a kick that looks like this, or a punch that looks like this. If we want to use elbows, what should that look like." Combat sports often come from functional combat skills that existed before the sport.

The sport part was usually just a safer way to train for the combat. Sort of like how animals play fight which actually helps them prepare the skills that they will use in a real fight.
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Agree. I was just asking @drop bear where he thought the MMA Oblique kick came from. I have not clue who actually created the kick but it most certainly originated from TMA.
 
JowGaWolf said:
To an certain extent. For the most part the fighters in MMA are going to pick the technique that works best for them. Some of the fighters have the flexibility and ability to kick high so they do do it. Others do not have that skill set to kick high, so they don't do it. The oblique kick is another good example, how many people in MMA actually use it in comparison to other stuff that is widely used.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that just because it's not in MMA it's not effective. How long was MMA around before we started seeing the effective use of the Oblique kick? Like alot of stuff found in MMA, that's a TMA technique that has been around longer than MMA has existed. But it took a long time before we saw it being used.
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Sure, innovation still happens. The thing is, the guys doing it are the top level MMA guys, that have such a robust understanding of how the mechanics of fighting work that they are able to make viable tweaks and improvements. What is not happening is innovation outside of this circle.

MMA is one of those strange terms, like 'science', that people tend to try to slap concrete edges on where they don't really fit. People tend to view 'science' as this objective thing when it's really just a term from the sum total of all of our knowledge and the reproducible ways of getting to it.

So too is MMA, rather than a fixed thing, the sum total of our reproducible knowledge of how to do a thing(in this case unarmed combat).

For decades it has been drawing from everywhere, flowing to the path of least resistance.

Muay Thai wasn't chosen an a base for MMA striking, it was adopted because Muay Thai strikers were beating everyone.

Wrestling and jui jitsu likewise weren't 'selected'. Wrestlers and BJJ guys were dominating in the beginning, so people were forced to learn them or get dominated. It was a natural progression

If say, Wing Chun guys were dominating the early years before arts started mixing, you'd see people doing it today. Same goes for any other 'style' that failed to make the cut.

I personally started doing MMA seriously about three years ago now, with the intention of reworking my WC to be viable. Yet, the more I learned, the more I realized that every WC solution was straight up inferior in practice to what was already there.

Trap the hands? Low percentage, probably eat a fist..better to clinch.

Chain punch blast? Inferior power and range to a simple boxing 1 1 2 or 1 2 3.

Shift and pivot? Faster and safer just to step offline.

Etc etc.
 
drop bear said:
There is footage. Quite a bit of it these days.

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Funny how you just dismiss videos that don't fit your narrative, but quickly post those that support it. You've long apparently confused brand loyalty with objectivism (which might not even be a word, so I might be the confused one here). Fortunately, you've chosen a decent brand for your loyalty - probably by being objective at the time.
 
gpseymour said:
Funny how you just dismiss videos that don't fit your narrative, but quickly post those that support it. You've long apparently confused brand loyalty with objectivism (which might not even be a word, so I might be the confused one here). Fortunately, you've chosen a decent brand for your loyalty - probably by being objective at the time.
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Which video have I dismissed?

And no. I am working objectively. I don't think BJJ is the best system for handling offenders. It just has the most evidence.

If you wanted to take a style discussion and add a bunch of tactical considerations then I would suggest folk wrestling. Because you fight to be on top and fight to stand up which is more applicable.


Otherwise there is a lot of videos that confirm bjj working in the street.
 
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JowGaWolf said:
Adapting seems natural to me. If Wing Chun was truly designed for close quarter space, say like a linear alley way, a room, or some other some other space restricted area like a crowded street then I can see where the narrow stance and footwork would come in handy, but when there is space then the footwork needs to be able to adapt. This is true for all fighting systems.

Below is a picture from the 1900 China. If a fight were to kick off in this environment, then you would want to beat your opponent as quickly as possible while taking advantage of limited space, before people started to get out of the way. If you were walking down an alley in this environment, then you would have the same challenges of limited space. Both scenario make getting the fight over as fast as possible would require forward aggressiveness which is common in Wing Chun practice. I can't visualize a scenario where Wing Chun waits to be attacked. The narrow stance almost demands you go after the opponent fully dedicated. The Chi Sao and Bong Sao and trapping movements seems like something that would work when you are jamming punches with forward movement.

s-l400.jpg


If my assumptions are correct then Wing Chun would have no other choice but to adapt when there is open space. With open spaces people are now able to cut angles and literally be on your flank. Now take downs would be able to take advantage of footwork designed for limited space. If someone wanted to fight in a less congested area then their footwork and defense would have to naturally adjust. I know that some Wing Chun schools fail to adapt in this way, but I don't think that's a System issue. I think that's a Purity Issue and not a fight logic issue. Fight logic would dictate that we adapt techniques according to the environment we are in.
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I sometimes wonder if some of the narrow stance influence is later-life instructors. Because of my knees, I have significantly narrower stances most of the time than I recommend to students. I get away with it because I'm technically adept enough on some techniques, and know that I'm not on others (so either deal with the discomfort of the lower stance, or avoid using the technique much).

It's not really even a theory, but a wondering.
 
Martial D said:
The chances are if it's not already there it's because it's garbage.
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That's overly binary. There's a lot that's less efficient than the typical MMA approach, but still produces results. Just not results at the level needed to stay competitive, given time and energy constraints.
 
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