The notion that you have to throw/submit yourself in Aikido or get your wrist broken

[JowGaWolf]

Same with wristlocks. If I dominate the clinch or the grip fight I will have a much higher percentage of successfully applying wrist locks than if I study wristlocks for ten years.

Yep. This falls into what we were talking about the building up the strength required to dominate the clinch /grip. and actually using in sparring vs only drilling it every blue moon along with the other 40 or more techniques that a TMA may have. Can't learn by studying along. Studying help to get understanding, but everyone still has to go through the test of application. Is what was studied true to what is required for application. There's only one way to find that out.

 

[Hanzou]

I don't understand why people like to use pull guard.

If my right hand grab on your right door, when you use pull guard on me, my right forearm will be right across your throat when we both land on the ground. If I want to play dirty, my right elbow can smash on your nose.

In the following picture, if the white applies pull guard, the red's right fore arm will land right on white's throat.

How will BJJ expert solve this issue?

 

[JowGaWolf]

What you would have to do is gear up and do a ton of HEMA style sparring.

Exatly, which is why I was saying that MMA is not good for being a Standard for Jow Ga. MMA will allow me to test somethings but not all the things that make up Jow Ga. For example, The big punches that I do, I have to alter slightly in sparring because some of them naturally fall on the back of the head, which is illegal in competition and in general not nice to do to your sparring punches. Now if I wanted to test the effectiveness of that punch in an honest manner then I would let the punches naturally land on the back of the head right behind the ear.

If I want to test out my double dagger skills then maybe HEMA or a Kali will be a good area for that as building a standard. If the standard is self-defense then maybe the streets are a better marker. And not even to be funny, but Jow Ga also has lion dance. soooooo. I'm just saying that all of what Jow Ga kung fu is doesn't fit neatly into. Professional MMA fighting.

Now if I could actually participate in MMA fighting (too old for it now) then heck yeah I would go Jow Ga all the way as much as possible with a few escapes from BJJ. A 90% Jow Ga and 10% something else is still a good Jow Ga performance. But that's just me and because my goal and passion that have for Jow Ga. I don't want it to become some forgotten system that used to be good for fighting, but now no one knows how to use it. To me that's the worst thing that can happen to a valid fighting Martial Arts system. And I'm not talking about this on the level of creating professional fighters. I'm talking about this on the level of the knowledge that is lost.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In high school I used a short drop instead of picking up my opponent completely off the ground to slam them. Short drops allowed me to drive my elbow or shoulder into my opponent multiple times and required less strength to do it. The effectiveness was due to the numerous drops using m weight. I wonder how well that would work against the guard? Anyone know? I have not tried it against BJJ or Judo

 

[jobo]

Discussing how I train personally would be a weird derail to the thread. This isn't about any one individual.

Also, I'm not sure you know what an anecdote is.

so you have no evidence that your training is in anyway effective ? just like most of the rest of us

 

[Hanzou]

In high school I used a short drop instead of picking up my opponent completely off the ground to slam them. Short drops allowed me to drive my elbow or shoulder into my opponent multiple times and required less strength to do it. The effectiveness was due to the numerous drops using m weight. I wonder how well that would work against the guard? Anyone know? I have not tried it against BJJ or Judo

That depends on the Guard you're working against. I'm going to make the assumption that you're talking about closed Guard here, because that's the standard Guard.

The idea that it's easy to stand up while in someone's Guard is the first misconception that I'm seeing in this thread. It takes a lot of power and skill to stand up if someone has a good closed Guard on you. The goal of your standard closed Guard is to control your opponent's posture, and that's exactly what someone will do if you make the mistake of getting in their Guard. I made the mistake when I first started Bjj to stand up while a woman half my size put me in her closed Guard. Not only did I pull a muscle in my lower back, but I also got arm barred for my trouble.

In addition, if they have a good Guard that means that you're going to have to watch every move you make because one mistake can get you into a submission or a sweep. You're simply not going to be able to just impose your will on someone who knows what they're doing while in the closed Guard. This is why passing Guard is an art in of itself.

 

[Martial D]

so you have no evidence that your training is in anyway effective ? just like most of the rest of us

No, Im not looking to be a YouTube star.

Anyway, the point that seems to continue to evade you is that a style/system is not a person. On the matter of styles and systems, the current climate of competition has already shown what works reliably against resisting opponents and what doesn't.

And the kicker is those things are in flux, as people innovate variations and new ways of doing things.

This is how real martial arts evolve, and what separates them from those that cling desperately to traditions, and those that offer 'self defense' techniques that are never realistically tested.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That depends on the Guard you're working against. I'm going to make the assumption that you're talking about closed Guard here, because that's the standard Guard.

The idea that it's easy to stand up while in someone's Guard is the first misconception that I'm seeing in this thread. It takes a lot of power and skill to stand up if someone has a good closed Guard on you. The goal of your standard closed Guard is to control your opponent's posture, and that's exactly what someone will do if you make the mistake of getting in their Guard. I made the mistake when I first started Bjj to stand up while a woman half my size put me in her closed Guard. Not only did I pull a muscle in my lower back, but I also got arm barred for my trouble.

In addition, if they have a good Guard that means that you're going to have to watch every move you make because one mistake can get you into a submission or a sweep. You're simply not going to be able to just impose your will on someone who knows what they're doing while in the closed Guard. This is why passing Guard is an art in of itself.

I'm not asking about standing up that's that what I meant when I say short drops. Short drops is what I'm doing with my body not the opponents body. In what I'm talking about I would only need to lift my opponent a few inches if that much or I'll need only a few inches between the point of impact, usually my elbow or shoulder. It doesn't require me to get to my feet. If I remember correctly when I did it in high school I kept close to the guy I was wrestling.

It was a long time so my memory of the event could be way off, but what I think I did was to wrap my arms around him as if I was hugging him, This way my hands were behind his back locked by holding one wrist and making a fist. From this position I was able to push up just a few inches if that much and drop him on my fist, wrist or arm, not sure what he landed on specifically but it's whatever I had underneath his body, with each drop I would try to tighten the grip as I drop dead weight.

Long story short he walked away with brushed ribs and cried out in pain.

The only thing I remember was the reason why I did this. It wasn't a fight or anything, but I was playing football with a bunch of other teens from the neighborhood and i had braces on. The QB of their team thought it would be funny to throw the football at my mouth and each time it hit me in my mouth my braces would shred my lip. I think he did it 3 times and then on the forth I knocked the ball away as it came to my face, tackled him any way and on the ground I began to squeeze him as if I was trying to crush his ribs. He was bigger than me so I use short drops of me lifting him a little and dropping dead weight as I tighten the squeeze as he hit the ground.

I haven't thought of that incident until now and I was just curious if the same thing or something could be done against a closed guard. All of this didn't require that I get to my feet. He was taller and bigger

 

[Hanzou]

I'm not asking about standing up that's that what I meant when I say short drops. Short drops is what I'm doing with my body not the opponents body. In what I'm talking about I would only need to lift my opponent a few inches if that much or I'll need only a few inches between the point of impact, usually my elbow or shoulder. It doesn't require me to get to my feet. If I remember correctly when I did it in high school I kept close to the guy I was wrestling.

It was a long time so my memory of the event could be way off, but what I think I did was to wrap my arms around him as if I was hugging him, This way my hands were behind his back locked by holding one wrist and making a fist. From this position I was able to push up just a few inches if that much and drop him on my fist, wrist or arm, not sure what he landed on specifically but it's whatever I had underneath his body, with each drop I would try to tighten the grip as I drop dead weight.

Long story short he walked away with brushed ribs and cried out in pain.

The only thing I remember was the reason why I did this. It wasn't a fight or anything, but I was playing football with a bunch of other teens from the neighborhood and i had braces on. The QB of their team thought it would be funny to throw the football at my mouth and each time it hit me in my mouth my braces would shred my lip. I think he did it 3 times and then on the forth I knocked the ball away as it came to my face, tackled him any way and on the ground I began to squeeze him as if I was trying to crush his ribs. He was bigger than me so I use short drops of me lifting him a little and dropping dead weight as I tighten the squeeze as he hit the ground.

I haven't thought of that incident until now and I was just curious if the same thing or something could be done against a closed guard. All of this didn't require that I get to my feet. He was taller and bigger

Yeah, the same problem still arises; Your posture is being controlled, so I'm not seeing how you're going to be able lift the person and bear hug them in Guard (unless you're rolling with a child or something). In addition, as soon as your hand or arms hits the mat, you're entering dangerous territory. One of the goals of the Guard is to get your opponent's hand to hit the mat so that it can be trapped. Once trapped you're opened up to a very wide variety of submissions. A hand or arm smacking the mat is like music to the ears for a Bjjer fighting in Guard.

Also it should be mentioned that another goal of the Guard is to break down your opponent's posture. I was taught that the safest spot in someone's Guard is sitting upright on my heels with my back straight. You coming in for a bear hug actually makes it easier for the person putting the Guard on you to control your upper body.

 

[jobo]

No, Im not looking to be a YouTube star.

Anyway, the point that seems to continue to evade you is that a style/system is not a person. On the matter of styles and systems, the current climate of competition has already shown what works reliably against resisting opponents and what doesn't.

And the kicker is those things are in flux, as people innovate variations and new ways of doing things.

This is how real martial arts evolve, and what separates them from those that cling desperately to traditions, and those that offer 'self defense' techniques that are never realistically tested.

but non of it shows that YOU can make it work, so we have no way of knowing if your system of training is better is better than mine

Do WE ?
we dont even know you train at all apart from a few anecdotes

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yeah, the same problem still arises; Your posture is being controlled, so I'm not seeing how you're going to be able lift the person and bear hug them in Guard (unless you're rolling with a child or something). In addition, as soon as your hand or arms hits the mat, you're entering dangerous territory. One of the goals of the Guard is to get your opponent's hand to hit the mat so that it can be trapped. Once trapped you're opened up to a very wide variety of submissions. A hand or arm smacking the mat is like music to the ears for a Bjjer fighting in Guard.

Also it should be mentioned that another goal of the Guard is to break down your opponent's posture. I was taught that the safest spot in someone's Guard is sitting upright on my heels with my back straight. You coming in for a bear hug actually makes it easier for the person putting the Guard on you to control your upper body.

Thanks for the info. Good thing I didn't try that on a BJJ practitioner. lol

 

[Martial D]

but non of it shows that YOU can make it work, so we have no way of knowing if your system of training is better is better than mine

Do WE ?

LOL

Don't you do krav maga?

 

[jobo]

LOL

Don't you do krav maga?

no

 

[Hanzou]

Thanks for the info. Good thing I didn't try that on a BJJ practitioner. lol

This video might help (dude is hilarious too);

 

[JowGaWolf]

@Alan Smithee
@Kung Fu Wang
@gpseymour

Alan this is mainly for you. It talks about some of the dangers that come with applying joint locks and it may share light on why some people go with the lock in training. I personally like it because it shows just how little movement is needed to get the lock started.

It talks about your opponent "doing something stupid" in an effort to escape a wrist lock. My biggest fear when teaching kids wrist locks is that they will play around with it and quickly apply it to their partner and injuring the partner. Even when I teach adults wrist locks I warn them multiple times, "do not quickly do this joint lock" and "do not be a smartass, and try to resist it by overpowering it." Then I tell them, if your partner thinks it's funny to resist it by over powering it, then release the lock. In general with Joint locks, there's a correct way to escape and a really painful way to escape.

People who train wrist locks for function will tell you the similar warnings like what's in the video and what I stated. I don't think you would be happy if your training partner broke your wrist. It's been my experience that people will only train stuff like this with people they can trust.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This video might help (dude is hilarious too);

Thanks.. I appreciate the time you took to find the video.

 

[Gweilo]

Anyone who trains a TMA and can use the techniques, will tell you that the technique will remain but the crisp movie like movements are

Sorry playing catch up, in your opinion, how much of the above statement would you say is
A) down to the actual techniques
B) down to the students phyche in a high pressure situation?

 

[Gweilo]

Someone dropped his elbow straight down on my heart while I was on the ground. I was almost killed that day. Even today, I still worry about my opponent "elbow dropping".

Is the above statement the technique not being effective, or is it a fear of being hurt ?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Is the above statement the technique not being effective, or is it a fear of being hurt ?

That was my personal experience. How to prevent your opponent from dropping his elbow joint straight down on your body while you are on the bottom and your opponent is on your top? IMO, it's not that easy.

In the following clip, this trick has been played in stand up wrestling during the ancient time. It's very difficult for a judge to tell whether one may do this on purpose, or it is just an accident. This trick can also be used on the ground as well. How to prevent this from happening while you are on the ground and on the bottom?

This is why I'll never use pull guard.

A: You just broke my nose. BJJ is suppose to be a friendly match.
B: Sorry! When you use pull guard on me, I lose balance and I can't control where my elbow suppose to land. It's just an accident. I didn't intend to hurt you.
A: @#$%^&

This is my favor jacket holding position.

 

[Hanzou]

That was my personal experience. How to prevent your opponent from dropping his elbow joint straight down on your body while you are on the bottom and your opponent is on your top? IMO, it's not that easy.

In the following clip, this trick has been played in stand up wrestling during the ancient time. It's very difficult for a judge to tell whether one may do this on purpose, or it is just an accident. This trick can also be used on the ground as well. How to prevent this from happening while you are on the ground and on the bottom?

This is why I'll never use pull guard.

A: You just broke my nose. BJJ is suppose to be a friendly match.
B: Sorry! When you use pull guard on me, I lose balance and I can't control where my elbow suppose to land. It's just an accident. I didn't intend to hurt you.
A: @#$%^&

I think we need to take a step back here and recognize that there are multiple ways to "pull Guard", because there are multiple types of Guards that you can wind up in. Again, I'm assuming here that people are talking about getting pulled into closed Guard. Let it be known that in the current state of Bjj, "Pulling Guard" could mean anything from getting pulled into closed Guard, getting pulled into X Guard, getting pulled into 50/50 Guard, the various types of Jump guards, etc.

For example;

While that pull led into a sweep, there's all sorts of nasty things you can do from that Guard position.