The Meaning of Ninja

[Floating Egg]

I never claimed that I did, but you didn't answer my question either.

 

[arnisador]

Some People tend to forget (or perhaps ignore) that this is how the arts were Introduced to the west, and this is then how they are still thought of by many. Using that terminology.

There's an aspect of this. Similarly, I have to think twice or else I write jujitsu rather than jujutsu. (Notice that jujitsu is still the preferred form when viewed as a word in the English language.) But, from this end it feels as though the insistence on calling it taijutsu is a re-branding of sorts too--"We wish we hadn't used ninjutsu, so everyone please switch to taijutsu now. Thanks." I honestly don't know the truth. Maybe it's been called taijutsu for centuries and no one in Japan would recognize it if it was called ninjutsu. (I know, no one knows much that's accurate about it no matter how it's called!) It feels like a PR campaign either way.

Not an expert--that's just how it comes off to me.

As to simply calling it budo, though...at the least, that seems an incomplete and insufficiently specific description of exactly what it is.

 

[Floating Egg]

Most people identify ninjutsu with stealthy stuff like Ashinami Jukka Jo and Inton Jutsu, but upon further investigation the abiguity of the word surfaces. Perhaps this abiguity is better represented by a word that is not so laden with myth and legend. Then again, what exactly does Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu communicate? Are we really saying anything more significant?

 

[Shogun]

Similarly, I have to think twice or else I write jujitsu rather than jujutsu.

Well my thoughts on this is that Jujitsu has become the way we spell this martial art in america. It has Become an american word. Jiu Jitsu is the same thng, only it has how the Brasilians spell it. Jujutsu would obviously refering to Japanese Jujutsu.

As to simply calling it budo, though...at the least, that seems an incomplete and insufficiently specific description of exactly what it is.

Most definitely. If the term Ninjutsu is the Yin, Budo would be the Yang. While Ninjutsu is overly specific and sometimes (more often than not) incorrect, Budo would be a overly general to the point of not even being associated with the martial arts. Tea ceremonies and the like are Budo.

KE

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

In the west, we have a way of simplifying things. quite possibly its easier to say Ninjutsu when speaking because it rolls of the tongue easier than Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

Well, that's exactly it. Practicing Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is a way of making things more difficult for you. And I know Ed Martin is fond of saying that this art adapts to you more than you have to adapt to it. Sorry, but in my experience that is only a half-truth.

I often say Ninjutsu when speaking of it, but Ninpo is my favorite, or, Ninja Taijutsu. both are far more descriptive within fewer words to the average person. another thing, to the non-practitioner, Ninjutsu is general term for the martial art that Ninja used. now, this may not be precise (condsidering your average bushi and common folk also used them) but it works. and if it works, whats in name? a rose is still a rose yadda yadda etc etc

Wouldn't it be nice to know you're putting in an effort to make sure that in due time Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu will gain widespread acceptance far greater and better than the quite a lot more stigmatized word ninjutsu ever would or could?

 

[ginshun]

I think the fact that I got a positive and a negative rep point for the same post in this thread says something about how people veiw this subject. I am just not sure what.

Regardless, it still seems like semantics to me. If you are happy with what you are learning, as I am, the name matters little.

IMO at least. To each his own.

 

[rutherford]

I hope for your sake that most of it originates from Japan.

I am convinced that it does. I make no claim about being good at it, or even being more interested beyond a "boy that's cool" sort of feeling. At my level, there's SO much other stuff that I need to concentrate my time on. I will not be one of those people who makes it years and years without ever learning to punch correctly.

And, I am surprised if you haven't had a chance for the same teachings. If it's something you're interested in, find somebody who knows, develop a relationship with them, and learn it. I've heard repeatedly that people who say this or that isn't being taught in the Bujinkan just aren't looking deeply enough. Is this not true with what you'd call ninjutsu techniques?

mizu_teppo, would you say that people who go to Dave Furukawa, Dick Severance, or Greg Dilley would learn water techniques with a basis in Japan? If Shihan Severance showed you some stuff he learned in the military, would you ignore it because it wasn't Japanese?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I am convinced that it does.

And exactly why is that?

And, I am surprised if you haven't had a chance for the same teachings.

Who says I haven't?

If it's something you're interested in, find somebody who knows, develop a relationship with them, and learn it.

At the moment I'm struggling to do just that, only in my case it's the taijutsu I'm mainly interested in...

I've heard repeatedly that people who say this or that isn't being taught in the Bujinkan just aren't looking deeply enough. Is this not true with what you'd call ninjutsu techniques?

I'd say I have a fairly good connection right now through my instructors as to what's being taught in Japan. I'm also fairly sure that we would be seeing more "ninjutsu" being taught if the Japanese thought more highly of our taijutsu standard.

mizu_teppo, would you say that people who go to Dave Furukawa, Dick Severance, or Greg Dilley would learn water techniques with a basis in Japan? If Shihan Severance showed you some stuff he learned in the military, would you ignore it because it wasn't Japanese?

I personally wouldn't ignore it, as I've seen methods from shootfighting, kali, kuntaosilat, BJJ and several other styles being adapted to a taijutsu perspective. And I don't mean that as a case of people looking to outside sources to complement something they find lacking within the Bujinkan, as I was confident the people I trained with then had the degree of experience required to evaluate the stuff.
Lately though, I've been seeing a whole lot of kick/thai boxing influences, and while I'd like to think new approaches are beneficial every now and then, as I see it the result is pretty much the same mistake the guys at the predominantly sparring-dominated dojo in my town are doing; trying to make taijutsu fit into a kickboxing perspective/mentality, give-and-take.

 

[rutherford]

And exactly why is that?

It's faith on my part. I have faith that Soke and the Japanese Shihan know what was practiced and have shown it correctly. I have faith that the people in between them to me have also learned the techniques accurately and have shown them to me correctly.

Of course, I have little faith that I caught half of what was shown, or have even minimal competence. I also have faith that this will change with time and training.

Who says I haven't?

Nobody. However, you made the statement that you "haven't been taught very much ninjutsu" - emphasis mine.

By my questions, I'm trying to dig into what you mean by that and the reasons for it. I expect you know a lot more people in the Bujinkan, and a lot more about the state of the Bujinkan.

 

[mizu_teppo]

mizu_teppo, would you say that people who go to Dave Furukawa, Dick Severance, or Greg Dilley would learn water techniques with a basis in Japan? If Shihan Severance showed you some stuff he learned in the military, would you ignore it because it wasn't Japanese?

For the first question, that's something you'd have to personally discuss with the spoken teachers. And for the second question, that's completely besides the point we're trying to make here, so there's no point in answering it.

 

[Mountain Kusa]

This thread is interesting indeed.

One of my teachers and friends Thom Humphreys is constantly saying we are training in Japanese Jujutsu. This man has studied more arts than I have even heard of, trained in more and has a wide range of experience. What we might call one thing say Omote Gyakku, he can and will call it different things from several other arts. Sometimes in my conversations with him he will call a thing something that I have not heard of and he will have to back up and say you call it this in the Bujinkan. It is all blended together in him.

Okay Chris so what is your point, many if not most of the techniques are in other arts, our weapons may be different, but the movement is there. Some arts or teachers never let you out of the box. meaning, create things from the katas or basic techniques. Or, do the same "principle" of a technique a different way. My point being that he has a broad range of knowledge that spans different arts.

The question was asked one day of him, "if i am to get as knowledeable as you do I need to study all these arts?". He replied that everything you need is right here, but that you should have knowledge of these other arts. How they do things get into things etc. Sensei has said the same thing.

So this brings me to Budo. What exactly is Budo. From my own perspective, it is about your own personal journey, improving yourself in the martial arts at every opportunity, trying not to make a mistake that you made yesterday today, and becoming a person that can walk through life and make the right decisions when presented with an opportunity. Doing this not only for the time that you might have to employ these techniques against another human(s) being, but for the time that you might need to put your life on the line for someone else or group, because no one else can or even will whether they have the skill or not.

For me, Budo taijutsu means working at every opportunity to be able to use my body better, and attain a piece of mind that just maybe, I will be better at this today than i was yesterday. All this while walking a life worthy of a man.

Ninjutsu is a whole 'nother thing. But, we need to employ the principles to todays more modern weapons and times. Ninja / ninpo / whatever one wants to call it, is about endureing and persevering our challenges each day. So, in a watered down way, as applied to budo taijutsu, accepting the challenges presented, enduring and persevering them, and most of all keep going. This is why in a previous post i said to me it is more about the mentalness, this is combined with the physicalness.

Anyway, this is my perspective at this time, tomorrow it may change, even in as little time as the next post here, but then, that is budo to me.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

It's faith on my part. I have faith that Soke and the Japanese Shihan know what was practiced and have shown it correctly. I have faith that the people in between them to me have also learned the techniques accurately and have shown them to me correctly.

Good for you if it's all legit. It's well known that the Japanese tend to choose what to teach to which people at what time, because different people have different "needs". I'm still not convinced that the stuff you're talking about originated in Japan though. And does it really take up a substantial amount of time from your training curriculum, enough so that you feel you can safely say that your main focus is ninjutsu, and not taijutsu?

Nobody. However, you made the statement that you "haven't been taught very much ninjutsu" - emphasis mine.

There are also a lot of things I have been taught that I haven't spoken about here. Just as with everyone else.

 

[rutherford]

I'm still not convinced that the stuff you're talking about originated in Japan though. And does it really take up a substantial amount of time from your training curriculum, enough so that you feel you can safely say that your main focus is ninjutsu, and not taijutsu?

I think I've been clear about the amount of training I have received and how much time I've spent working at it.

As for the use of the term Ninjutsu, it's not an issue for me. I'm comfortable enough just understanding how different people use the term and I'll try to match my usage to the people around.

I don't think the definitions are anywhere near as clear as you'd like. I also believe language in general is more about usage than definition.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

There's probably gonna be some problems in the future if Hatsumi sensei decides to start teaching actual ninjutsu to any large extent...

Funny. I can't type with three of my left fingers today.

 

[Cryozombie]

There's probably gonna be some problems in the future if Hatsumi sensei decides to start teaching actual ninjutsu to any large extent...

Why?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I was thinking along the terms of definition issues.

 

[Cryozombie]

Oh

Ok.

 

[Mountain Kusa]

There's probably gonna be some problems in the future if Hatsumi sensei decides to start teaching actual ninjutsu to any large extent...

.

What problems do you see forthcoming? Not withstanding the definitions.

 

[rutherford]

For the first question, that's something you'd have to personally discuss with the spoken teachers. And for the second question, that's completely besides the point we're trying to make here, so there's no point in answering it.

Actually, I think you're completely wrong.

In the first question, networking is how we pass information. Perhaps we don't use the internet to teach the local bar crowd stuff they shouldn't know. But passing on the names of teachers who can show authentic students the way to knowledge is a goal few can gainsay. If you're going to say that water-based ninjutsu in the Bujinkan is mostly non-japanese in origin and I give you three examples of teachers in America I've heard are capable of a pure tansmission, you can't just brush that aside. The training is out there, if you seek it.

The second question is right to the heart of the matter. Are you of the opinion that what you call ninjutsu is entirely made up of techniques that have Japanese names? If so, I don't think you have any idea of the philosophy that is the core of ninpo. That there are so many people in the Bujinkan is a monument to the survival of the dojo and its teachings. That Hatsumi's teachings change from year to year as his students grow and the world around changes is a perfect example of the adaptation of this living art.

If something new comes along that is better suited to today, something that just plain works better - that is ninjustu. That is the way of survival.

Am I wrong?

I may not be able to tell the difference between what works for me and what is best. I understand the caveats. But tell me that I'm wrong about the core.

 

[mizu_teppo]

Uh.. for the first question again, saying that water-based ninjutsu in the Bujinkan is mostly non-japanese in origin is completely wrong. This kind of applies to the second question as well. You need to understand that ninjutsu is a japanese art. It must have it's roots lead back to Japan, bottom line. You can't take somethig else or make something up and call it ninjutsu. If that's what you're into, you might as well be studying with any of the neo-ninjers out there who make up their own stuff.

As for the core of ninjutsu, I understand what you're saying, and it's a good idea to do just that for yourself in order to be the best you can be. But you can't (or atleast shouldn't) call that ninjutsu. It can be ninjutsu inside your heart, but to go around claiming it out in the open is a childish thing to do that can be misleading and in some cases dangerous. If what you're talking about is a historically verifiable ninjutsu technique, something that originated in Japan and is Japanese (I emphasize again that ninjutsu is a japanese martial art) then by all means go ahead and call it ninjutsu. But if you're going to take other good techniques and tell people that it's ninjutsu, then I'm sorry but you're no better than Ashida Kim or Frank Dux, regardless of how practical the technique is.

I believe that people should seek out the best teachers they can find and learn as much practical things as they can, ninjutsu or not, and train to their hearts content. But that is not the question here.

I don't understand why some people are so interested in labelling as many things as they can "ninjutsu". It's just so childish. An apple will always be an apple, and an orange will always be an orange. But that doesn't mean that eating them both is not a good idea, because it clearly is a good idea.