The Meaning of Ninja

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Nimravus, you haven't been shown at least some of the techniques for walking silently? Or not leaving a trail in long grass?

Or some of the sentry removal attacks?

I'd say that my training group has about one class a month that strongly emphasises things you would call Ninjutsu.

I hope for your sake that most of it originates from Japan.

First off, if Hatsumi has not been specific about what ninjutsu is then how come you seem to have such a specific idea of its definition?

I don't know about you, but I find no reason to doubt Hatsumi sensei's claims of recent years that ninjutsu and taijutsu are not synonymous and that he hasn't been teaching very much ninjutsu but rather focused on taijutsu and bukiwaza. Or do you have any information that suggests otherwise, apart from the names of books and videos?

And that is true about the books, they are not training manuals persay, but there are examples of techniques shown in both of those books. Are those techniquies ninjutsu or not? If not, then why are thry in a book with said title.

Ninjutsu is not about techniques, so no. As for the names, well..."essence" is a popular word in the Bujinkan and for a reason, surely you've heard it before?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I suppose it is like arnisador said, a lot less people would probably buy "Essense of Tiajutsu"

Yes. And? See, there's plenty to argue about.

 

[Cryozombie]

I still say we are arguing semantics.

You say "Adhesive Bandage" and I say "Band Aid"

I say "Frisbee" and you say "Flying Disk"

But I ask, Does it really matter, beyond being elitist?

 

[ginshun]

Yes. And? See, there's plenty to argue about.

And nothing. I wasn't making a judgment, just an observation. I see nothing wrong with the way the books and videos are named, even if it is a bit misleading.

Perhaps naming a book "Essence of Ninjutsu" even though it really doesn't explain ninjutsu that well is the essence of ninjutsu?

Does that make sense to anyone else? My head hurts.

I still say we are arguing semantics.

You say "Adhesive Bandage" and I say "Band Aid"

I say "Frisbee" and you say "Flying Disk"

Agreed.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I still say we are arguing semantics.

You say "Adhesive Bandage" and I say "Band Aid"

I say "Frisbee" and you say "Flying Disk"

But I ask, Does it really matter, beyond being elitist?

These examples are synonymous. Taijutsu and ninjutsu are not.

 

[Cryozombie]

These examples are synonymous. Taijutsu and ninjutsu are not.

Nim, I was thinkin about it. It's WRONG to generalize and use the terminology some of us do.

In fact... Budo Taijutsu, or even Taijutsu may be too general as well...

Perhaps we should lay claim to the SPECIFIC Ryu that we are currently working.

So today, I might be a student of the Koto Ryu. Tomorrow It might be Togakure, and sunday it could be Kukishinden.

:shrug:

Those words may not be synonymous... but they are used that way. Thats what you are arguing against.

 

[Cryozombie]

Furthermore...

Some People tend to forget (or perhaps ignore) that this is how the arts were Introduced to the west, and this is then how they are still thought of by many. Using that terminology.

Who cares? Does it matter?

When someone constantly reminds others they are wrong, I have to ask why? Does it destroy your world or invalidate your training for me to call it Ninjutsu? Are are you trying to prove you are better, or know more, because you are "enlightened" to the fact that's not all it is?

Call my training "Poo Poo Taijutsu" and I will still train in it... and not complain about the lack of Poo Poo.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Nope. Sorry but your analogy is inaccurate. All techniques practiced within the nine ryuha are budo taijutsu. Even if weapons are used, taijutsu is the basis.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Furthermore...

Some People tend to forget (or perhaps ignore) that this is how the arts were Introduced to the west, and this is then how they are still thought of by many. Using that terminology.

Old habits die hard, I'll give you that.

When someone constantly reminds others they are wrong, I have to ask why? Does it destroy your world or invalidate your training for me to call it Ninjutsu?

Does it destroy or invalidate your training to realize that the usage of the word ninjutsu has largely been inaccurate?

Are are you trying to prove you are better, or know more, because you are "enlightened" to the fact that's not all it is?

Would you say the same about instructing?

 

[Cryozombie]

Nope. Sorry but your analogy is inaccurate. All techniques practiced within the nine ryuha are budo taijutsu. Even if weapons are used, taijutsu is the basis.

The analogy being inaccurate, if you ignore the fact it was Introduced to the world as "ninjutsu" and only "recently" renamed BudoTaijustu

 

[Cryozombie]

Does it destroy or invalidate your training to realize that the usage of the word ninjutsu has largely been inaccurate??

No, and that was my point... who cares what it's called?

Would you say the same about instructing?

Im not sure what you mean by this, so I will answer in the context I meant the comment...

I would not NOT learn from an instructor who's taijustsu seemed good who uses the term Ninja/Ninjutsu... Anymore than I would go to an instructor who I thought sucked because he knows its called Budo Taijutsu.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

The analogy being inaccurate, if you ignore the fact it was Introduced to the world as "ninjutsu" and only "recently" renamed BudoTaijustu

The word taijutsu seems to have been around from the start anyway...though, as has already been said, it obviously doesn't sound as cool.

It's funny... I started training around late 1994/early '95, and the first instructor I had pretty much never said anything else than "budo". Not a word about the Bujinkan, taijutsu, ninjutsu, ninpo, jujutsu or bujutsu...simply budo.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

No, and that was my point... who cares what it's called?

Given a choice between two alternatives, of which one is more accurate than the other, why would you choose the least accurate? Because it sounds better?

Im not sure what you mean by this, so I will answer in the context I meant the comment...

My point was that the basic premise for you showing up to train with someone would be that he has knowledge or abilities previously unknown to you that you believe you would benefit from studying. Would you say he is letting you in on this information just to feed his ego and to confirm that he is more skilled and/or experienced than you?

I would not NOT learn from an instructor who's taijustsu seemed good who uses the term Ninja/Ninjutsu... Anymore than I would go to an instructor who I thought sucked because he knows its called Budo Taijutsu.

I trust people who use the N-word if I also have reason to believe they know the actual difference between taijutsu and ninjutsu.

 

[mizu_teppo]

Given a choice between two alternatives, of which one is more accurate than the other, why would you choose the least accurate? Because it sounds better?

This is what I agree with. It's better to be accurate about your own art rather than call it something so you can feel like a ninjer. Why would you not want to be accurate about your art? That would be like me studying taekwon-do but calling it karate because taekwon-do developed from shotokan.

The reason the term ninjutsu was first used was because Hatsumi-sensei was introducing to the west numerous martial arts that ninja studied and so he put it into simple terms so we'd all understand. Now that the bujinkan has matured it's time for us to grow up and realise what exactly we are learning. Like I said before, ninjutsu is bansenshukai. What is found in the bujinkan is budo taijutsu and ninpo taijutsu. "Understand? Good. Play!" talks about these kinds of things. But when you quote Hatsumi-sensei for anything, you always have to use the latest possible source, because Soke will say things at certain times based on his audience and their level of understanding. What Soke used to say in the 80's on some subjects is no longer valid today. I mean, how many of you have heard Soke say "I did not say that then because people were not ready to hear it". It's important to understand this and see how Soke's teaching methodology generally works. I find he will also say things to get a certain point of across, though it might not be 100% accurate. Or he may be speaking in metaphorical terms. So you really have to look closely at Soke's words and not always take them in the most basic, striaghtforward, literal sense. A good example of this is most of the text found in "Way of the Ninja" (the book is definately advanced in philosophical terms, IMO).

As for people practicing "ninja" things like silent movement or water techniques... it's probably most definately military and/or western developed stuff. If it comes from Japan and is ninjutsu, then you should be able to tell the exact, correct, japanese name for the technique. If you can't, then I'd question what you are learning.

 

[Floating Egg]

As for people practicing "ninja" things like silent movement or water techniques... it's probably most definately military and/or western developed stuff. If it comes from Japan and is ninjutsu, then you should be able to tell the exact, correct, japanese name for the technique. If you can't, then I'd question what you are learning.

Are you suggesting that Shinobi Aruki is not actively taught in the West?

 

[Cryozombie]

If it comes from Japan and is ninjutsu, then you should be able to tell the exact, correct, japanese name for the technique. If you can't, then I'd question what you are learning.

While Im not refering to "Ninjutsu" techniques specifically, but rather my training as a whole, Im an american, who does not speak Japanese, and consequently I remember the "American Names" for the techniques I learn far more easily than the Japanese ones... Are you saying that the techniques are in question because I cannot prattle their names off in a language that is foriegn to me?

Please.

 

[Shogun]

Given a choice between two alternatives, of which one is more accurate than the other, why would you choose the least accurate? Because it sounds better?

In the west, we have a way of simplifying things. quite possibly its easier to say Ninjutsu when speaking because it rolls of the tongue easier than Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. I often say Ninjutsu when speaking of it, but Ninpo is my favorite, or, Ninja Taijutsu. both are far more descriptive within fewer words to the average person. another thing, to the non-practitioner, Ninjutsu is general term for the martial art that Ninja used. now, this may not be precise (condsidering your average bushi and common folk also used them) but it works. and if it works, whats in name? a rose is still a rose yadda yadda etc etc

 

[mizu_teppo]

While Im not refering to "Ninjutsu" techniques specifically, but rather my training as a whole, Im an american, who does not speak Japanese, and consequently I remember the "American Names" for the techniques I learn far more easily than the Japanese ones... Are you saying that the techniques are in question because I cannot prattle their names off in a language that is foriegn to me?

Please.

Your argument isn't valid because the techniques I'm reffering to don't really have english names. I mean they do, but it's not something you would say. If you're refering to your training as a whole, then that is something completely different and off topic.

Are you suggesting that Shinobi Aruki is not actively taught in the West?

Tell me what "shinobi aruki" you've learned. Not all aruki is silent ninjer stuff.

 

[Floating Egg]

Tell me what "shinobi aruki" you've learned. Not all aruki is silent ninjer stuff.

If I told you I'd have to kill you.

 

[mizu_teppo]

If I told you I'd have to kill you.

Lol, is that your way of saying that you haven't learned it at all?