OK, who do I trust???

[Dale Seago]

As for D. Navon, he was training with Hatsumi and I met him at Hatsumi Sensei's personal training village.

What "personal training village"?

 

[kwaichang]

Um. . .Do you happen to know what the term uchi-deshi means? I don't think even any of Hatsumi sensei's Japanese students ever fit into that category.

I cannot believe you actually put thought into that question.
The basic definition is:
Uchi-deshi (内弟子:うちでし, Uchi-deshi?) is a Japanese term for a live-in student who trains under and assists a sensei, on a full-time basis. (From uchi for "inside" and deshi for "student"). The term is most commonly used in the budō arts.

As for the rest of the statement; you are wrong again. I'm not going to "ping pong" such disrespective posts.

 

[kwaichang]

What "personal training village"?

It's called "yomura mura" (I've lost the original spelling) and was set up by Hatsumi Sensei personally. The location is outside of Noda City. Some of us have trained there, Americans, Israeli's, Auzzies, etc.

 

[llong]

Do you mean the Hombu?

Do you have any proof that SKH was Soke's Uchi Deshi that doesn't come from SKH?

 

[kwaichang]

No I don't mean the Hombu; I know of what I post.

Those who know ,do not need further information while those who do not know and refuse to know unless they experience for themselves, can be left to themselves.

I refuse to play this game any further.

 

[Dale Seago]

The basic definition is:
Uchi-deshi (内弟子:うちでし, Uchi-deshi?) is a Japanese term for a live-in student who trains under and assists a sensei, on a full-time basis. (From uchi for "inside" and deshi for "student"). The term is most commonly used in the budō arts.

The reason I wondered is that per my own conversations with SKH in the early 80s he was working for a living while he was there in order to support his training (hence hardly training/assisting full-time), and was not living in Soke's home or dojo.

That in turn made me wonder if you knew what you were talking about regarding Yumoa Mura, which as it turns out you did.

 

[nitflegal]

While I understand that many of the books from a variety of authors were written a little too soon along the training path (and have heard the authors say as much) I've found things of training value in Hayes' books, Hoban's, Charles Daniel's, etc. Jack Hoban's books on tantojutsu and bojutsu are quite nice, if you can find them. Hayes' Contemporary Publishing books seem a little dated but there's certainly some good information in there, same as with his spiral bound books from the early 90's. Mind you, I really like Hatsumi-soke's new HB series of books.

If it's history alone that one is after, I get the feeling that most of the older published work is pretty questionable. Heck, I remember when I thought I was studying ninjutsu way back when. It's kind of odd to actually be seeing bits and pieces of the actual ninjutsu schools.

For what it's worth,
Matt

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Dale is right on the money as always. SKH was never an uchi-deshi with Hatsumi Sensei. To my knowledge no one ever has been and that knowledge seems to be quantified by my contacts in Japan.

According to everyone I know who is as high up as you can go in the Bujinkan Terry Dobson was the first American to train with Hatsumi Sensei and I thought Doron Navon was before him but will bow to Dale's expertiste on the time line there. Doron was simply awesome and I personally liked training with him at his seminars when he visited the UofM in Ann Arbor.

Now SKH really promoted Hatsumi Sensei and Togakure Ryu with his books and road the ninja craze back in the day. He was important to the growth of the Bujinkan in America and around the world. However his books are loaded with his interpretations and ideas and they are not reflected necessarily in Hatsumi Senseis teachings.

In the end if you want it right go to the source!

 

[canit]

Long time lurker, first time poster. I am going to hit on a few items so please bear with me.


Stephen Hayes was never an uchi-deshi of Hatsumi-sensei. As Dale Seago has written, Mr. Hayes was working far from Noda to support himself and certainly was not living anywhere near Hatsumi-sensei.


Doron Navon was the first foreigner, western world or otherwise, to be licensed by Hatsumi-sensei to teach outside of Japan. He was the first non-Japanese Shidoshi. This is fact.


As mentioned, it was Terry Dobson who introduced most of the foreigners visiting Hatsumi-sensei in the early days; Quintin Chambers, Danny Waxman, Doron Navon, et al. Stephen Hayes' introduction to Hatsumi-sensei was also facilitated by another foreigner residing in Japan and training with Hatsumi-sensei at the time. For some reason this person's presence is not acknowledged in "Ninja & Their Secret Fighting Art".


The name "Yumoa" is a phonetic corruption of the english word "Humor". Yumoa Mura = Humor Village. A rural ninja theme park!

It was a small cluster of old buildings turned in to an attraction for the hotel near Mt. Tsubaki. Hatsumi-sensei donated a variety of weapons and photographs. The first Taikai was held there, and various Shihan took groups up there to train.

I went up there a few times with different Shihan and small groups of foreigners. The caretaker was always happy to see us.

I got the impression Bujinkan people were expected to go up there, especially on the weekends. Nothing like having 'real ninja' training in/around your 'ninja-house'; taijutsu, throwing shuriken, rescuing people lost in the secret corridors, etc.

It was very cool to go up there. The old farmhouse and shrine nearby really set the scene, however it was not Hatsumi-sensei's "personal training village". :BSmeter:

 

[tellner]

Just as a first cut...

If they don't know that "shinobi jutsu" was part of the curriculum of many traditional martial arts they probably don't know what they're talking about. If they don't know about the inclusion of many or most "ninja" into the Japanese secret police and the privileges like pensions, salaries, exemption from tolls and road taxes and free entry into theaters that came with taking the Shogun's mom'me you might want to look elsewhere. Extra points if they've heard of the "Shakuhachi Ryu" and can tell you something about it.

 

[Toshindo4ever]

But what about Stephen Hayes? Is he considered a reliable author? He was supposed to have been hatsumi's first American student right? Or is that just BS too? His books had a lot of that "mystical ninja" stuff too.

Help!!!

Anshu Hayes is the best source you can find about ninjutsu in English. The politics of ninjutsu are very complex. There are even people that try to say that Anshu is not a student of Hatsumi sensei anymore. That is a complete lie. Anyone who asks Anshu will find out the truth. He is, and always will remain the senior student of Hatsumi sensei outside of Japan. In the Japanese way of doing things, that means we all owe him our respect and loyalty.

Do not listen to those that try to tear him down due to their jealousy. Instead ask him if you wish to find out the truth.

 

[Kreth]

Anshu Hayes is the best source you can find about ninjutsu in English.

Hmmmm. Dale Seago, Sean Askew, Peter King, Jeff Mueller, Wade Goodner, Bud Malmstrom, Jack Hoban, and many, many others have far surpassed Hayes' mat time in Japan.

The politics of ninjutsu are very complex. There are even people that try to say that Anshu is not a student of Hatsumi sensei anymore. That is a complete lie.

So the Bujinkan members living in Japan who confirmed this are incorrect?

Anyone who asks Anshu will find out the truth.

Two words, P R...

He is, and always will remain the senior student of Hatsumi sensei outside of Japan.

Doron Navon (you know who he is, right?) would be surprised to hear this. As would the people in the list above, and all the others who have much more time in Japan actually training with Hatsumi sensei.

In the Japanese way of doing things, that means we all owe him our respect and loyalty.

Why? I've never been his student. I think the man is very skilled, yes, but others have surpassed him in terms of knowledge and skill.

Do not listen to those that try to tear him down due to their jealousy. Instead ask him if you wish to find out the truth.

I don't understand why the jealousy card has to be thrown every time this debate rises from the dead. Hayes had a great thing going, and he *was* the top dog in America (note: not outside of Japan), but now he's doing his own thing. That's not bad, it is what it is.

 

[Toshindo4ever]

---Hmmmm. Dale Seago, Sean Askew, Peter King, Jeff Mueller, Wade Goodner, Bud Malmstrom, Jack Hoban, and many, many others have far surpassed Hayes' mat time in Japan.

All of those people never had the experiences that Anshu did. They came later after the art was more open and some things had to be kept out of what was taught.

---So the Bujinkan members living in Japan who confirmed this are incorrect?

They are part of the game going on. They just can't stand the idea of someone knowing more than them and they know that Anshu is far more skilled than they will be. No matter what stories they spread, they will never drive a wedge between Hatsumi sensei and Anshu.

--Two words, P R...

No, the truth.

---Doron Navon (you know who he is, right?) would be surprised to hear this. As would the people in the list above, and all the others who have much more time in Japan actually training with Hatsumi sensei.

As I said, they just never learned all that much because of the situation. And Anshu lived in Japan and trained for many, many years in the 1980s. He even had a home. Did you know that before you said what you did? There are many things you could learn if you only went to the source and not the jealous folks that try to tear Anshu down.

--Why? I've never been his student. I think the man is very skilled, yes, but others have surpassed him in terms of knowledge and skill.

No they have not.

--I don't understand why the jealousy card has to be thrown every time this debate rises from the dead. Hayes had a great thing going, and he *was* the top dog in America (note: not outside of Japan), but now he's doing his own thing. That's not bad, it is what it is.

He has expanded on the knowledge. But everything that you can learn in Bujinkan can also be found in Toshindo. The opposite is not true. People just don't like the idea of Anshu being so much better than them in both the traditional and the practical sides of the art.

 

[Kreth]

All of those people never had the experiences that Anshu did. They came later after the art was more open and some things had to be kept out of what was taught.

Have you trained with or even spoken to any of the people I named? If not, how can you speak to their experiences? I've trained with all of them, and Hayes.

No matter what stories they spread, they will never drive a wedge between Hatsumi sensei and Anshu.

That ship has already sailed, and it wasn't due to the actions of others...

No, the truth.

No, PR, as in public relations, as in what sounds good for his franchise business.

As I said, they just never learned all that much because of the situation.

You're kidding, right? Doron Navon in particular was training with Hatsumi sensei *before* Hayes.

And Anshu lived in Japan and trained for many, many years in the 1980s. He even had a home. Did you know that before you said what you did?

I knew he lived in Japan, yes. "Many, many years" is debatable.

There are many things you could learn if you only went to the source and not the jealous folks that try to tear Anshu down.

I've been to the source. It's in Noda-shi (well, technically Atago). What sources do you have?

He has expanded on the knowledge. But everything that you can learn in Bujinkan can also be found in Toshindo.

Cool. So would you like to explain a little about Roppo Kuji no Biken from your Toshindo training?

People just don't like the idea of Anshu being so much better than them in both the traditional and the practical sides of the art.

And again with the jealousy card. :idunno:

 

[Toshindo4ever]

Have you trained with or even spoken to any of the people I named? If not, how can you speak to their experiences? I've trained with all of them, and Hayes.


That ship has already sailed, and it wasn't due to the actions of others...

Ah yes, Anshu talks about people like you.

In the first paragraph, you demand that I speak to everyone you talked about or else I do not know the truth. But in the second, you say things about something you have never talked to either Hatsumi sensei or Anshu about.

Do you see the double standards?

So unless you have talked to Hatsumi sensei or Anshu, BY YOUR OWN LOGIC you can't say anything about their relationship.

And I have talked to Anshu about it. And he has talked to Hatsumi sensei and even gotten letters and rank certificates from him. The stories of him being kicked out of the Bujinkan are a lie and BY YOUR OWN LOGIC you are in no position to say otherwise.

 

[Kreth]

Ah yes, Anshu talks about people like you.

And I didn't even get him a card...

In the first paragraph, you demand that I speak to everyone you talked about or else I do not know the truth. But in the second, you say things about something you have never talked to either Hatsumi sensei or Anshu about.

Please don't twist my words. I was saying that I have trained with the people I named, as well as Hayes, and I find the people I named to be more skilled.
The whole blowup about Hayes' Bujinkan status occured after my last trip to Japan. But I have been in contact with friends in Japan who were there when Hatsumi sensei removed Hayes' plaque from the rank board and announced that Bujinkan members who trained with him would no longer be welcome at Honbu. So I'm not going to waste Hatsumi's time asking about a done deal.

Do you see the double standards?

I see you trying to mesh two discrete points I was attempting to make into some bizarre sort of straw man argument. :idunno:

The stories of him being kicked out of the Bujinkan are a lie and BY YOUR OWN LOGIC you are in no position to say otherwise.

Ok, so to summarize:

1. Hayes has not been kicked out of the Bujinkan.
2. Hayes is the anointed disciple of Hatsumi sensei outside of Japan and we should all bask in his august splendor.
3. Anyone who says otherwise is a jealous liar.
4. There is no #4.

Does that pretty much cover it?

 

[Cryozombie]

There are even people that try to say that Anshu is not a student of Hatsumi sensei anymore.

Yes, Hatsumi said this

That is a complete lie. Anyone who asks Anshu will find out the truth.

So, you are calling Hatsumi a Liar and saying that Hayes word is better than his. I wonder, if "ANSHU" is such a precious student of Hatsumi how he would feel about some random student of one of his schools calling his benefactor a liar.

In the Japanese way of doing things, that means we all owe him our respect and loyalty.

No, if you really believed that YOU would be showing some to Hatsumi.

Do not listen to those that try to tear him down due to their jealousy. Instead ask him if you wish to find out the truth

Why, oh WHY, would Hatsumi be Jealous of Hayes? Hahahaha. You are ****ing kidding me right?

FACT: Hatsumi PUBLICALLY REMOVED HAYES RANK FROM THE WALL. IT WAS WITNESSED BY DOZENS OF STUDENTS, MANY OF THEM SHIHAN. But YOU would have us believe that EVERYONE present conspired out of Jealousy and that Dozens of witnesses "fabricated" this together, but ONE MAN, (Hayes) is telling the truth.

Cmon, really now. Really. Are you that Naive? Say, didja know I own the original Sword used by Yoritomo? Nevermind the fact that it looks JUST like a Paul Chen Practical, thats where he got the design from, yeah, that's it... I'll let you have it for 1000 bucks man... Actually I have 2 of them...

 

[Toshindo4ever]

Yes, Hatsumi said this

So you talked to him about it? I think not.

You all have been led astray by the stories of petty little folks who have their own agendas instead of asking either Hatsumi sensei or Anshu themselves. Well, I have not talked to Hatsumi sensei about it but I have the word straight from Anshu that he still is a member of the Bujinkan. And he is someone that can be trusted. He is not someone who hides behind a computer screen.

 

[newtothe dark]

WOW this goes on and on. What a shame. Anshu Hayes is doing His thing it is seperate and good for many The Buj is its thing and good for many. Sma goes for Gen, and Jen respectively so let it go, Preaching on forums will never convert anyone or really change their opinion. Joust my humble thoughts.

 

[Toshindo4ever]

Maybe idiots and cult members will not listen to the truth. But Anshu is still the longest serving student of Hatsumi sensei. There are those that would love to take his students away from him by saying that he does not know Bujinkan or is not a student of Hatsumi sensei anymore.

Do you really think it would help people to let others convince them that they should not study with the greatest student of Hatsumi sensei in America?