The Meaning of Ninja

[Floating Egg]

Oranges cause cancer.

 

[arnisador]

Oranges cause cancer.

Now that is an impressive Ninja technique!

Is ninjutsu a martial art, or is it something related to martial arts? (I think of it as the former.) Were people given a menkyo in ninjutsu?

 

[rutherford]

Oranges cause cancer.

Does that mean you have absolutely no idea what he (sorry if I'm using the wrong pronoun, it's hard to be sure without a name I recognize) is talking about?

****
mizu_teppo, I'm glad you agree that you're completely wrong.

As for people practicing "ninja" things like silent movement or water techniques... it's probably most definately military and/or western developed stuff.

And then later:

Uh.. for the first question again, saying that water-based ninjutsu in the Bujinkan is mostly non-japanese in origin is completely wrong.

These statements seem to contradict each other. What do you really mean?

For myself, I mean that there is definitely a water-based set of techniques. I don't know why you brought them up, but whatever. And, there is traditional training to be he had from several sources. If some people aren't getting them, that's their deal. It's always been a facat of our training that you have to go out and take the knowledge that you want. It does not come for free on a silver plate.

As for comparing adapting new techniques to your existing foundation of taijutsu to garbage made up by Ashida Kim . . . well, I'll let my negative rep comment speak for itself.

Soke has been very clear that his choice for replacement may not necessarily be Japanese. Ninjutsu has its foundation in Japan. It is beyond question that the best training is available in Japan. However, the way of survival is not locked in the past.

When we train with guns, you should set aside the black powder and pick up something modern.

Interesting to see how the word Ninjutsu is being used in our side conversation. How does this translate to the original topic of the word Ninja? Is it also a living term, or does it only describe people from the past?

 

[rutherford]

Now that is an impressive Ninja technique!

Is ninjutsu a martial art, or is it something related to martial arts? (I think of it as the former.) Were people given a menkyo in ninjutsu?

I'm going to be very general, to try and stay correct. As you get closer to specifics, things become more open to debate.

Well, the Bujinkan is made up of several schools. Some of them are Ninja and some are Samurai. Currently, you do not get ranked in any particular school. You get belt rankings within the Bujinkan dojo. A very highly ranked person may not know a single thing about a whole school of teaching. This is common.

Now, Menkyo is a bit different. Throughout history, Menkyo have been given out for a particular school.

But, Ninjutsu?? Well, we can't even agree on what the word means.

 

[mizu_teppo]

These statements seem to contradict each other. What do you really mean?

You're not reading close enough. The second quote says water-based ninjutsu. Anything ninjutsu cannot be non-japanese in origin, which is why I said that was wrong. For the first quote I was just saying that people often teach thing labelled incorrectly, using water techniques from the military as a possible example.

For myself, I mean that there is definitely a water-based set of techniques. I don't know why you brought them up, but whatever. And, there is traditional training to be he had from several sources. If some people aren't getting them, that's their deal. It's always been a facat of our training that you have to go out and take the knowledge that you want. It does not come for free on a silver plate.

I'm not argueing what's available here. I'm argueing how things get labelled (or mis-labelled that is). So.. I don't know why you wrote that, or what you're reffering to by "traditional training".

How does this translate to the original topic of the word Ninja? Is it also a living term, or does it only describe people from the past?

Since ninja were primarily a specialised agent of a class of people in Japan, then I believe it most definately describes something of the past. Unless I've been out of the loop and things in Japan have gone back to the feudal system. Just as the samurai class died out, so did the ninja. And the only people who I believe have the right otherwise to call anyone or anything "ninja" would be someone like Soke or Seno Shihan. Besides that, I take anyone who mentions themselves as being ninja with a grain of salt and give them the Ashida Kim stamp. I'm sorry, but I just have no tolerance for people who are not honest with themselves.

What were we argueing about again?

 

[Kizaru]

Back to the start of the thread...

I was talking to XXX Shidoshi today (he is of the Bujinkan) and i asked him the all important question. "Do you consider yourself a ninja?" and said he has been a ninja for 15 years. he went on to say that anybody who studies ninjutsu is a ninja. now my thinkig was since Takamatsu O'sensei was the last ninja ......Do you guys agree with that? I'm confused.

I've thought of that "all important question"

myself too. When the Saigo no Jissen Ninja DVD was released, I asked one of the senior Japanese shihan in Japan about it; specifically, the title. His response was, "Takamatsu sensei learned these things when he was young and used them to avoid being killed and to kill others when he had to. That makes him a real budoka. I have not lived my life like that...I wouldn't even call myself a budoka."

I really enjoyed that conversation; I think there was alot more to it than just what was being said at the surface.

My own opinion on the above question is this; we may practice the arts, but the days of the samurai and ninja are long gone. If I were to tell someone in Japan that I were a "ninja" that would be like me walking up to another American and saying, "Hey! I'm a member of the Fantastic Four!" So what am I? What do I "call" myself? I'm just a guy doing my best to maintain a positive attitude and make the most of every day. What do we call that???

:asian:

 

[Mountain Kusa]

Back to the start of the thread...


I've thought of that "all important question" http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon11.gif myself too. When the Saigo no Jissen Ninja DVD was released, I asked one of the senior Japanese shihan in Japan about it; specifically, the title. His response was, "Takamatsu sensei learned these things when he was young and used them to avoid being killed and to kill others when he had to. That makes him a real budoka. I have not lived my life like that...I wouldn't even call myself a budoka."

I really enjoyed that conversation; I think there was alot more to it than just what was being said at the surface.

My own opinion on the above question is this; we may practice the arts, but the days of the samurai and ninja are long gone. If I were to tell someone in Japan that I were a "ninja" that would be like me walking up to another American and saying, "Hey! I'm a member of the Fantastic Four!" So what am I? What do I "call" myself? I'm just a guy doing my best to maintain a positive attitude and make the most of every day. What do we call that??? http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif :asian:

Very exellently said !!!!!

As I look back on my past since I started in this art I can proudly say I have not been In one real fight since I started. One minor altercation when I used a 30.06 rifle as a hanbo, but that was as a 9th kyu. "Katate Ori"

As for what I call myself, "Hi, my name is Chris, Care to train?

Excellent post, Excellent post!!

 

[rutherford]

You're not reading close enough. The second quote says water-based ninjutsu. Anything ninjutsu cannot be non-japanese in origin, which is why I said that was wrong. For the first quote I was just saying that people often teach thing labelled incorrectly, using water techniques from the military as a possible example.

I'm of the opposite opinion. I think that clearing a jammed rifle, or putting a mine on a boat, and a whole ton of other stuff is definitely contained within Ninjutsu.

Furthermore, I think that the attitude that this stuff is not within Ninjutsu is what leads people to say patently false things like "The Bujinkan is just a bunch of reenactment enthusiasts."

I'm not argueing what's available here. I'm argueing how things get labelled (or mis-labelled that is). So.. I don't know why you wrote that, or what you're reffering to by "traditional training".

. . .

What were we argueing about again?

We are arguing about what is contained within Ninjutsu. I say there are techniques with historical accuracy. These are certainly to be valued. There is a lot of integrity in this training, and even skills that some might consider esoteric have a personal value in being learned, can be effective if applied, and one should not limit the lessons learned to the specific task. We train for living, and everything is connected.

There are also modern skills and principles which may not have Japanese roots.

The problem with people like Ashida Kim is they lie about the roots of what they teach. They also teach stuff that is patently false, ineffective, and dangerous in the extreme to the idiot who believes in it.

I don't train with frauds because they lack integrity. Even if Ashida Kim really could teleport, I wouldn't seek him as authentic source for learning. A proper heart is also contained within Ninjutsu.

Mountain Kusa, Kizaru, I totally agree. The training is what's important. We should all seek to build authentic, effective skills and learn from people of integrity. "Thanks, Chris, I'd love to train. I'm Jason. I did some Bo work this morning, and I'm looking forward to find out what tomorrow's class will be like. I'm going in with an empty tea cup."

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I'm of the opposite opinion. I think that clearing a jammed rifle, or putting a mine on a boat, and a whole ton of other stuff is definitely contained within Ninjutsu.

No. It's related to the same type of tactics that ninjutsu encompasses, but it isn't ninjutsu. Not if you couldn't find it 500 years ago in Japan anyway.

 

[Cryozombie]

Not if you couldn't find it 500 years ago in Japan anyway.

So...

We are just preserving japanese history and nothing more? We are a glorified SCA or renfair? The art is not growing, evolving or adapting to its times?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

So...

We are just preserving japanese history and nothing more? We are a glorified SCA or renfair? The art is not growing, evolving or adapting to its times?

Preserving??? Ordinary practitioners like you and me????

Come back when Hatsumi sensei has taught ninjutsu indepth to such a large extent that the knowledge is readily available to all practitioners (as in "kihon happo-like" available), then we'll talk...

As has been said time and again, the methods of ninjutsu were adapted to feudal-age Japan - you MIGHT for instance attract a bit more attention dressing up as a 16th century Japanese drunkard in the present day and age than back then. And this is the reason Hatsumi sensei doesn't teach much ninjutsu, but focuses on taijutsu and bukiwaza.

 

[Cryozombie]

Preserving??? Ordinary practitioners like you and me????

I meant in the art as a whole.

As has been said time and again, the methods of ninjutsu were adapted to feudal-age Japan - you MIGHT for instance attract a bit more attention dressing up as a 16th century Japanese drunkard in the present day and age than back then. And this is the reason Hatsumi sensei doesn't teach much ninjutsu, but focuses on taijutsu and bukiwaza.

So were the methods of Taijutsu. No one walks around in Samurai armor anymore... and while its easy to adapt the techniques to a motorcycle helmet or Kevlar vest I point out your earlier statement:

Not if you couldn't find it 500 years ago in Japan anyway.

so that would mean... what exactly? Combat methods are free to evolve but Ninjutsu techniques are not???? Whats the difference between dressing like a 16th century drunkard back then and a 20th century one now? Or say a Priest to blend in in a church, as opposed to a monk to blend into a monestary...

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I meant in the art as a whole.

I probably should have expressed myself a bit more clearly, sorry for that. My point was, there's not very much knowledge of ninjutsu available for people like you and me to preserve. Maybe one day, when our taijutsu is good enough...who knows?

So were the methods of Taijutsu. No one walks around in Samurai armor anymore... and while its easy to adapt the techniques to a motorcycle helmet or Kevlar vest...

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't notice that the subject at hand had changed from ninjutsu to taijutsu. My bad.

so that would mean... what exactly?

I'm inclined to be a bit more "liberal" in regards to taijutsu evolving, mainly because people tend to know a whole lot more about taijutsu than ninjutsu. Hatsumi sensei has stated several times that he feels it is better to learn the handling of explosives and disguise and impersonation etc. in the military (or for that matter, in an acting class) because the methods used in feudal Japan are outdated. And yes, that means the knowledge can and may be adapted from Japanese to western culture. But until Hatsumi sensei starts talking about such things regularly, to the point that he's willing to having it taught to everyone, I'm sticking with perfecting my taijutsu.

 

[mizu_teppo]

I'm of the opposite opinion.

Then we're going to have to agree to disagree. While I understand your view, I don't agree with it for one simple reason: neither you nor I have the proper authority to decide how ninjutsu should evolve and what modern methods it should encompass. While it's a good idea to study modern practical means in the "essence" of ninjutsu, those methods are not ninjutsu skills, but rather other skills we believe would help our development in relation to what we feel is the essence of ninjutsu technique. That's how I feel anyway, if you need to label things ninja or ninjutsu, then go ahead. But it's not a good idea to be public about it (esspecially off the internet) for the danger of misleading others who may share an opposite viewpoint.

I think I've said everything that I needed to say in this thread.

 

[blood shadow]

who has studied ninjutsu in the bujinkan to become a real ninja? the whole idea is a joke real ninja are long gone.

 

[Kichigai-no-Okami]

who has studied ninjutsu in the bujinkan to become a real ninja? the whole idea is a joke real ninja are long gone.

If you feel that way, then .......(reading your bio).

 

[SageGhost83]

Real ninjas are not long gone. Since Hatsumi is the heir of a ninja tradition, then those who train under him and his students or those who are well-versed within the ninjutsu traditions (juhhakei, hachimon, etc.) as outlined by soke would technically be real ninjas. Now, the role and prominence of real ninjas within society may have inevitably changed over time, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist anymore. There are plenty of real ninjas in the bujinkan and their offshoots, provided that they adhere to the Juhhakei and all of that good stuff. It also depends on what your definition of a "real ninja" is...

 

[kenjutsushi]

who has studied ninjutsu in the bujinkan to become a real ninja? the whole idea is a joke real ninja are long gone.

It's just my opinion but I think that's like saying there are no more patriots because we don't wear powdered wigs or shoot muskets. The times are different but the essence is the same. I've met enough high level Bujinkan practitioners who use what they've learned in the Bujinkan daily in there line of work. To me that makes them at least modern ninja! For the record I practice BBT but don't consider myself a ninja since I don't use it everyday. Using it and practicing it is not the same thing.

 

[Ronnin]

I know this, Hatsumi sensei has stated once you reach the level of godan (5th Dan) you can consider yourself a ninja.
Me personally, I think being a ninja is and was more a state of mind and awareness then anything else. A thousand years ago you had farmers who were ninja, and samurai from samurai clans that also worked as spies with "special techniques" at his disposal (ninja). I think someone today who is one with his surroundings be it jungle, desert, or city, understands his purpose, and presents himself beffiting a ninja, can call himself one. I do not think you have to kill someone secretly, dressed in black to think, live, and learn ninja.

 

[Ronnin]

Well, I think we can all agree than language is ambiguous, and that it changes over time. I consider Ninja and Samurai historical terms, and I use them in the appropriate context.

I very much agree with your statement.