Neo-Ninja Training Camp

[Don Roley]

I could find just as many "Koryu Scholars" here in Japan that would argue that the 9 ryu and the way they're taught ARE legitimate koryu. I could find just as many martial artists here involved with koryu that would vouch for the legitamcy of the 9 ryu.

Yep, which is why I stress the proof of Japan link and actual teacher so much.

You cannot find scholars to agree 100 percent on anything it seems. Heck, you want to find people who think the US never went to the moon you can find them.

But a Japanese art should have a link to Japan and be known in this country. Many fruads flock to the title of ninjutsu in order to use the excuse of "secrecy' to explain away why they are not known in Japan. But if you can hear about it on the internet, it ain't that secret. Heck, can anyone think of a reason to keep an art secret in the 20th century that does not sound like a bad comic book plot?

Same goes for proof of a teacher. Even if my teacher were to die tommorow, the pile of proof in terms of certificates, photos and people who have witnessed me training under him would be overwhelming. So when someone claims to have been taught to the level of grandmastership and can't provide even that, I just have to laugh in their face.

 

[Kreth]

I know that Wagner was taught thru Obata and Kimeda.
Forget the damn paper, have you seen him move? Has anyone that you know of trained with him.

You know what, Dave? I've seen vid of Falcaro at least, and since I have a bit of time on my hands at the moment, how about you pass on some contact info and class schedules. If they're reasonably close to my area (upstate NY), I'll drop in to attend a class. I will even volunteer my services as uke. After which, I will provide a full report of my experience on this forum. Fair enough?
If her schedule permits, I may even ask my gf along to videotape, if the instructors in question have no problems with it, of course....

Jeff

 

[Kizaru]

A long with this, there have long been "rumors" about various relationships that the Bujinkan has had with several questionable groups, from Juko Kai, to Aum Shinrikyo, etc. Quite frankly, I believe both to be bogus..

If you believe them to be bogus, then why did you bother to write them?

Was it because you forgot about the Papal Award that Hatsumi sensei received? Or the numerous letters of gratitude from various world leaders? Or the cultural awards that Hatsumi sensei has received from various Japanese organizations? What exactly was the intention behind your statement?

Gassho.

 

[Jeff Boler]

Easy there, bub. The ONLY time that accusation was made was by Don Cunningham. He pulled it out of his *** and got a verbal thrashing for it. He made that accusation not too long after 9/11. That was the point where even the slightest accusation of association to a terrorist group could cause a lot of harm. The ONLY questionable group to "latch on" to the Bujinkan was the Juko Kai. I guess Rod wanted to be taken seriously.

I beg to differ, the rumor was created by an email trail from a prominent member of an X-Kan. (I still have the emails.) Don Cunningham did not create any such rumor.

 

[Bujingodai]

Don unfortunatly I find myself defending it, due to people bringing it up and asking me to. Now as for whom exactly Jackson trained with I don't know. He trained thru Kimeda and Obata. I will ask him though. And you are correct that yes it is my view of skill. I have seen Kim in action and I can see a good difference, Though I am a chump though it would seem. Yes I am impressed by what I see with Jackson.
I don't gloat my skill. I am not so bold as to say I am anything in particular. I am a good teacher to my students in many ways, I also bring in alot of talent to show them things I cannot since I have not learned to my potential yet.
Don in the short of it, piss off will you. This will be the last I will pander to your words to get a rise out of me. Though now I see it will be because you have proven me wrong. I have been pretty forthcoming and honest about my situation and you continue to slap it all around as if I am this nefariuos (sp) creep looking to set myself up as some super ninja. Not so. So discussion over by me.
I guess I thought we had buried the hatchet some time ago. I guess not. Be well, I have always respected your opinion. But I won't answer any more of your questions. I answer and you rebut, you should be a lawyer Don.
Jeff, I have no issues at all with you coming here. I would more than likely ask you to teach me something as well. If you are coming with an open heart then fine, if you are coming to bust my *** up and prove a point. Also fine. Just let me know your intent.
I know that you are a Booj old timer, and skilled so either could be the case.
If you are interested in the summit in April at Falcaros place, very cool. I will put up your expenses. But again state your intention.
If you are further interested this may be the better one. I have 100 acres of land, with a campground and an obstacle course etc etc. We are having a gathering in August. Wagner, will be there, Falcaro will be there, I will be there along with some other indies. It is a camping event, more about auxillary skills etc. More relaxed of the events.
My class times are Monday 6:30-9:30, Tues the same and Wed we have a kickboxing clinic, not taught by me at all.
If you wish to set something up email me at [email protected]
on either case. I will email you some clips of my class in action, links to websites that we have and the so on.
I live in Pembroke which is about 3-4 hrs north of the border, off hwy 81. I am not sure where you are in NY.
The summit in April will be in Bethlehem
The Aug camp will again be held here. but in the bush not the dojo
My teacher(s) will be at all the events.

I hope I have been more open and less BS than at least some of the Ashida Kim types.

 

[Bujingodai]

Jeff, Oneonta is by per MSN about 7 hrs from me and 3 hrs from the summit. personally I would go with the summit as there would be a collection of indies to rate. You are close to Binghamton, ironic cause I will be there this weekend on my way to Bethlehem and Gettysburg. However I will have my daughters with me so, I won't drag them into any potential conflict.
I will ask the schools attending if they ahve any issues with you being at the summit. If not I will pay your attendance, food is included with the summit as well as accoms if you can't get them yourself. You would be pretty impressed with the spead Falcaro Sensei has, well I am.
So let me know and I will get the ball in motion
The summit is April 15,16,17. There were alot more schools coming but now so far we have Falcaro Sensei and the Godaishin Dojo, The Nindo Ryu, My group, Wagner Sensei, King Sensei and the Sanucus Ryu (pardon the spelling) I am not sure but there is a few more possibly lined up.

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

I just wanted to say I thought it clever that Bester's fictional training camp begins on April Fools' Day.


I otherwise have nothing constructive to add.

Carry on.

 

[Don Roley]

Don in the short of it, piss off will you.

How nice, 'PISS OFF." You really show what you are made of by statements like that.

You may note that I did not single out any person at first, but merely pointed out that none of the 'neo ninja' masters came close to even my level of experience. But look at post #21 in this thread and you see that you talked about yourself as one worthy of respect by my standards. After that, you opened yourself up to comparison and you do not like it that all that facts show you to be less than worthy.

Here is some advice, if you really do not want to deal with something anymore, stop posting. Just stop posting at all. Whatever you do, don't post some new argument, a statement that you are not going to post anymore and then try to intimidate the other side into not responding to your new arguments. That is a a tactic to try to get in the last word known as a weasel fart. And you have stated several times in this thread that you were done with the matter, only to come back when your attempts at getting the last word didn't work.

And let us face it, you can yell all you want about things, but the facts are the facts. You may be the most honest 'neo ninjer' I have run across, but you have never gotten to a level that would allow you to teach Bujinkan and yet you have students and more than one dojo under you. You can say all you want about how some Bujinkan teachers are not really all that good, but if you failed to reach a point where you could teach as well, what does that say about you?

It is the way neo ninjers go on the attack like you have instead of being able to stand on their own merits that cause me to pause. The way you felt in neccesary to bring down the Bujinkan instead of showing us how all the guys who declare themselves ninja master like yourself in relaly troubling. You are not qualified to teach a Japanese ninjutsu style, and so you seem to find a need to attack those systems for not recognizing you as you feel you should be treated.

Let us take a look at some of the people going to this real neo ninjer summit you are having.

Jackson Wagner= claims to have been trained in a Japanese tradition by a Japanese teacher but there is no mention of that Japanese tradition in Japan and no proof that his teacher ever existed. And the certificate he tried to pass off as proof was passed around the Japanese- fluent members of e-budo because of all the humerous value that badly faked fradulant piece held. Just one of the problems was that it was supposably issued by the "Heavenly Dog Association" and there are many, many other problems that caused a lot of mirth among people that could read Japanese.

Godaishin= I really do not know this guy, but I doubt he meets the very low level of drive and experience I set out as a challenge. All I can really tell is that he joins a lot of ninjer orginizations to build up his resume and does not mind being counted alongside Ashida Kim if it is in his best interest.

Nindo ryu= Oh Gawd were do I start? Do you know just how many times this group and its founder has made claims only to not be able to back it up and resort to conspiracy theories to try to cover itself? The founder was born on 9-13-1958 and founded his own ninja style in 1980. Do the friggin math. And did he have any training in a legitimate ninjutsu style before setting up his own system? Are you kidding? A few years after he started up as a ninja system head he went to a total of two seminars under Tetsuya Higuchi and pointed to that for a full two decades as his link to legitimate ninjutsu experience. But when he was told that Higuchi was not a Bujinkan teacher as he claimed and presented with proof his orginization tried to spin a conspiracy theory to explain away the denials by Hatsumi. They tried to portray Hatsumi as someone who would lie to cover their own claims up. And that is not the only case. They used to claim that their founder was offered an eighth dan in Bujinkan but turned it down. But only Hatsumi can give out eighth dans and the founder (Carlos Febres) had never been in the same state as Hatsumi. No one has ever backed up their claim for this and they instead floated the rumor that Hatsumi really did make the offer through another person for deniabilities sake. And I am not mentioning the time they tried to frame a Bujinkan member for assault or the way they tried to present an honorary rank from the Genbukan as the real thing.

These are only the groups for this neo ninja training camp you are having that I am aware of, and all that I have heard so far points to them being a great big joke. You say that there are bad teachers in the Bujinkan and I agree since that is the case with all martial arts styles. But for the amount of money you are spending to fly down to this thing to strut around and teach, you could be going to skilled teachers like Bill Atkins, Papa- san, Jack Hoban or others.

But I guess you would rather hang around with people who lie about their training and set themselves up as masters instead of going to skilled teachers of legitimate Japanese ninjutsu. Go ahead and make further insults and excuses, it is a fact that you are not spending your money to go to Japan or other good teachers of Bujinkan but rather using it to go to a place to hang out with people that lie about what they are. And even though I have always treated you fairly, I have never understood why you would do so instead of doing the honest thing and putting your own studies above your being seen as a teacher.

 

[Bujingodai]

I have never understood why you would do so instead of doing the honest thing and putting your own studies above your being seen as a teacher.

Don, you have no idea sometimes how much what you said is a fact for me. I honestly did not want to be seen that way.

I appreciate your comments on this, Thanks. I will take it all into consideration.

As for the piss off. We all get fustrated Don, sorry for that. I guess because I had thought for the most part, we did not agree on things but had planed out our arguements...now I seem to be the focus of this landslide it was fustrating. However no matter what one says, one shouldn't have to resort to that.

 

[Don Roley]

I honestly did not want to be seen that way.

So why don't you consider how your actions have led to people seeing you in that way? Why don't you take a long, serious look at your actual motivations for what you do? Why are you willing to set yourself up as a teacher and hang around with fruads and other self proclaimed masters instead of quietly trying to improve yourself day by day?

If I had to give you some advice it would be this- stop teaching martial arts and posting about martial arts for a year or so and take the time to instead deal with professionals and people who care about you as a person and not a martial artist to try to find out why you do the things you do.

I hope you listen to this, but I fear your whole ego system is built into maintaining your image in front of your students and you can never let that go. I expect excuses as to why you just can't stop doing what you do, but I hope to be proved wrong despite the odds.

 

[Jeff Boler]

Don. Can you explain something to me, and maybe I can better understand the way the Bujinkan operates. It is my understanding that there is no set curriculum in the Bujinkan. In essence, a member of the Shidoshi-kai is not required to teach a curriculum that is written in stone. There isn't a set catalog of techniques that is required for rank promotion. Is this right? Is it possible that you could visit two different Bujikan schools, and one not remotely look like the other?

I just remember reading one of the Juko Kai newsletters, in which Rod stated that because of the confusing nature of the Bujinkan, he was requiring John Willson to write down a formal catalog of techniques. Am I to assume that one doesn't exist?

I'm not flaming here, i'm just curious. It seems to me that if you had multiple schools teaching their own thing, then the original art form could potentially be lost in the mix.....

 

[Bujingodai]

Yes, Don I get the point
When I was still with the Bujinkan I moved away from any school to Pembroke. Back then I was studying under Frank Hill, Hachidan. I honestly don't think I was much a student. I was immature and my life was a wreck. I asked him if I could send him tapes in between my visits so he could see I was still training, he had stated at the time he didn't have the time. I was upset at the fact I had been there a number of years and that was the case. Now more than ever I can see it may have been me.
However with that being said, when I got here I had started with a Bujinkan group on the army base, it was being instructed by a 9th kyu. I was higher ranked, so I was asked to instruct...I was a civi so they didn't want it. So I attained someone to train with so I could keep what I had going, continued to attend seminars, go to other cities to train etc. All still Bujinkan, and again with no asperations to teach per se.
Some things turned me off the Bujinkan, the group got bigger over time etc etc, thats how things flowered for me. I had no intention of being the teacher. I had at this point set out to find quite a few mentors, including Bujinkan. My skill personally has gotten better, that is an opinion. So I have been focusing on bettering myself.
But I have never seen myself as being some leader of a style. It was an accident, and if by someways I could take it all back I would. But then maybe I would have not met some of the people I would have, so maybe I would not.
People like Falcaro Sensei, who say what you will has great skill. Tell you what Don, I will send the DVD from this upcoming summit to you no charge to Japan...I will pay the mailing etc etc. Just so there is some merit to what I say.
As for my own group. I pay more to heat the dojo then I make teaching. Don't have that many students and give 150% of whatever I can for them. last year I spent 4 months in the bush working on a camp with a 20 piece obstacle course and working plumbing. So yes I am proud of what we as a group has accomplished. I am proud of what I have learned as well.
I am proud that when I hear parents call me and say that their kid has stopped skipping school, gets better grades and whatever because of some of the values I have instilled in class to them.
So if that does it for me. Yep I get a good addictive feeling for some of that.
I have done OK for the ninjer that I am.
However if you don't think that everyday I wish it had gone a different way you are wrong. But I will defend the people I think worth it, regardless of what legits may think. If I chose to stick to what I am doing, it is not an excuse I don't answer to anyone, if I chose to stop all together it is also my choice.
Sorry to bore you with this but I felt I needed to.
My side of the argement is over and I hope I don't feel the need to rebut an insult coming my way. Because I just trying to be as upfront an honest with this as I can be. So if you wish to find someway to slag me after this post then well I can't stop it.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

The fact remains, you could get better than what you've got right now.

 

[KyleShort]

However, training others will make you better...so I would argue that he would have had to have gotten better over time...perhaps not in taijutsu, but at least in fighting.

Dave,

The thing is...what you get from training with a high level bujinkan instructor is not observable. I have a black belt in kenpo karate, a red sash in wing chun, escrima and sambo experience. With that knowledge I could easily look at someone like Falcaro (who I have never seen) and be impressed by his speed. I could be impressed by a lot of other things too, but none of that is relevant when reviewing in the context of taijutsu.

I would argue that essence of good taijutsu is felt, not seen. It does not manifest itself in speed, agility and other such attributes, though those may be byproducts of training. You should seek to understand and aquire that "essence". Perhaps just training with some bujinkan shihan for a little bit of time to really feel what they do and understand if you have that...and more to the point, are you aquiring that through your training group?

From the look of it, you have more experience in the bujinkan that I do, so my words may not hold much vailidity. But I thought I would add them anyway =)

 

[Bujingodai]

Appreciate your opinion.
I have seen a number of high level practitioners in and outside of the Bujinkan. So yes I can see the benefits and loss. I do think I am better than I was. But I can see what everyone is saying. I appreciate you taking the time to give me any assistance.
I will stand to say that Falcaro Sensei is likely one of the most talented martial artists I have met. I have only seen a little Ninjutsu from him, I was more impressed by his other disciplines.
Thats my opinion.

 

[Cryozombie]

MOD NOTE

Please Keep the Conversation Polite and Respectable

-Technopunk
-MT Moderator

 

[Bujingodai]

Accepted Techno. My apologies for the P/O word.

 

[Cryozombie]

Well, thats a friendly reminder for everyone Dave, not just you...

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

I know this question was directed at Shrek (oops, I mean Don ), but I'd like to share my view on it.



Jeff Boler: "It is my understanding that there is no set curriculum in the Bujinkan."

- Pretty much true, yes.

"In essence, a member of the Shidoshi-kai is not required to teach a curriculum that is written in stone."

- In essence, no stone, correct.

"There isn't a set catalog of techniques that is required for rank promotion."

- I haven't seen one for the buj' as a whole, but some shidoshi create their own.

"Is it possible that you could visit two different Bujikan schools, and one not remotely look like the other?"

- Entirely possible.

"..., he was requiring John Willson to write down a formal catalog of techniques. Am I to assume that one doesn't exist?"

- Again, I haven't seen or heard of one for the Bujinkan as a whole, but if this John Willson fellow (sorry, I don't recognize the name) wants to make up one of his own to give to Mr. Sachonarski (sp?), he may do so as long as he doesn't claim it to be the official Bujinkan curriculum.

"It seems to me that if you had multiple schools teaching their own thing, then the original art form could potentially be lost in the mix....."

- I don't agree. Even though there is no set curriculum, and each shidoshi is allowed to teach as they see fit, people who learn Bujinkan Budo still draw from the same pool (or rather, ocean) of technical and tactical knowledge. We are all strongly encouraged - as opposed to formerly required - to learn and practice what our instructors teach us, and to teach others as we ourselves were taught. This allows the freedom to treat each student individually to impart to them what the instructor believes they need to learn, and at the same time to make any improvements or additions to training methods as they see fit - as long as they fit within the general "feeling" of Bujinkan philosophy.

The original art form is still preserved in the scrolls and in the knowledge and technical ability of those with menkyo kaiden in the various ryu. It will all still be there. The lack of official curriculum means that it is our personal responsibility as students to catch as much as we can from what trickles down to us from the masters.

I'm probably horribly paraphrasing here, but I think I remember reading a quote of sensei Hatsumi that said he is not teaching techniques, only showing them. If we want to learn them, we have to go to him and steal them.

It is up to us what we want to learn - though it is highly recommended that we learn in the manner our teacher proscribe.


Ok, Don, your turn!

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

p.s. the above, and the question that prompted it should probably have been in a separate thread as they have nothing to do with Bester's fictional training camp.


I wonder if it's possible for a mod. or admin. to split it off?