General Choi

[Earl Weiss]

Imagine today if a military general who was second dan (many Japanese sources say first dan) in shotokan during a time of war and draft/ conscription used his position to pull your countries MA schools together under one umbrella, re-name it and send anyone who disagreed to nearly certain death on the front lines. Those who played ball with him were given very comfortable positions. How well would you like and respect this man? I've talked with GM's who were young, but there at the time and they had as much "respect" for the man as you likely would have.

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It is expected the jealous Johnny come latelys would have little respect. You cannot compare todays world of MA with the 1950's or even the 1970's for that matter. Again with regard to those who played ball getting preferential treatment, the WTF / Kukkiwon did th same thing.

 

[Earl Weiss]

No matter how Gen. Choi and his followers have twisted the recorded history, he was given an honorary 4th dan (as opposed to the legitimate rank of the original Kwan Jang Nims) for a reason. This honorary rank was also taken back because he tried to pretend it was real and demanded a higher one from the KJN of the CDK. This happened before his exile and while he still had considerable political power in South Korea and they ran newspaper stories from the time that can still be accessed and translated on the internet.

quote]

Except that those such as yourself always see fit to omit what happened after GM Son took out the infamous advertisement which also expelled GM Nam and GM Uhm from the CDK. Why don't you tell how the next thing that happened was GM Son was mysteriously gone, GM Uhm became the next CDK head, later I believe heading WTF and / or the Kukkiwon, and GM Nam remains a respected member. Gives a little insight into what CDK members thought of GM Son's advertisement and how much they supported it.

Have you read "A Killing Art"?

 

[chrispillertkd]

Imagine today if a military general who was second dan (many Japanese sources say first dan) in shotokan...

Interesting. What Japanese sources claim Gen. Choi had a first dan in Shotokan? I'd be very interested in seeing them.

I will point out that at the time Gen. Choi was apparently a second dan there were only 5 dans in karate.

during a time of war and draft/ conscription used his position to pull your countries MA schools together under one umbrella, re-name it and send anyone who disagreed to nearly certain death on the front lines. Those who played ball with him were given very comfortable positions. How well would you like and respect this man? I've talked with GM's who were young, but there at the time and they had as much "respect" for the man as you likely would have.

Who got sent to the front lines if they didn't play ball, specifically? Taekwon-Do wasn't named until 1955 and the Oh Do Kwan wasn't even founded until 1954, after the Korean War was over. Where was the front line in 1954 or 1955? By the time the ROK army was sent to Viet Nam Gen. Choi had been forced to retire and was in Malaysia serving a term as ambassador. At what time was he in a position to send anyone "to the front lines" if they didn't join up?

Thanks in advance.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Earl Weiss]

Who got sent to the front lines if they didn't play ball, specifically? Taekwon-Do wasn't named until 1955 and the Oh Do Kwan wasn't even founded until 1954, after the Korean War was over. Where was the front line in 1954 or 1955? By the time the ROK army was sent to Viet Nam Gen. Choi had been forced to retire and was in Malaysia serving a term as ambassador. At what time was he in a position to send anyone "to the front lines" if they didn't join up?

Thanks in advance.

Pax,

Chris

Oh Mr. Spiller, you are just trying to muddy things with the facts

 

[msmitht]

Did he actually use the word "Stupider"? It would be correct to say "More Stupid"

 

[Spookey]

Except that those such as yourself always see fit to omit what happened after GM Son took out the infamous advertisement which also expelled GM Nam and GM Uhm from the CDK. Why don't you tell how the next thing that happened was GM Son was mysteriously gone, GM Uhm became the next CDK head, later I believe heading WTF and / or the Kukkiwon, and GM Nam remains a respected member. Gives a little insight into what CDK members thought of GM Son's advertisement and how much they supported it.

Have you read "A Killing Art"?

Sir, I am proud to say the Uhm Won Kyu, Kwan Jang is the current President of the Kukkiwon! However, to this day the political turmoil continues!

Furthermore, I wish each of you to know that General Choi chose exile to continue position himself geographically to continue spreading Taekwondo without the corrupt governments influence. So much that attempts were made on his life, and not by the communist DPRK, but rather by the regime of Park Chung-Hee.

Finally, I add that General Choi's nemesis, Park Chung Hee (President of Republic of Korea, 1961-1979) was the one "sending people to the front lines" if they continued to follow Choi Hong Hi. Thus the induction of Kukkiwon and the WTF.

TAEKWON!
Spookey

 

[Spookey]

Below is a link to the letter Mr. Weiss referenced.

Written by Sun Duk Sung, and published in Seoul Shinmoon (newspaper) 16-June-1959.

http://www.hellers.ws/ma/59-06-15-son-letter.shtml

Furthermore, I provide reference to this quote from the official Kukkiwon page.

"2004 Mar. 2 Dr. Uhm, Woon Kyu was elected as the President of Kukkiwon"

http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/introduce/introduce03.jsp?div=03

TAEKWON!
Spookey

 

[goingd]

Well I'll be! I did use the word (or lack of) "stupider"! Well, my spell check aint bashin me! :ultracool

There is certainly a thing or two I did not know about Choi Hong Hi before reading a number of these posts. Though I'll say again, it is AMAZING some of the assumptions people make on this forum. Regardless, I have better things to do than to care about what negative things people here want to think and state about my posts.

I love information. I love history. I love talking with people like you (most of you XP) who have so much to share.

Now please, ever so amusingly continue your discussions on the late Grand Master Choi.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Oh Mr. Spiller, you are just trying to muddy things with the facts

My apologies, sir. I forgot this was the internet!

Pax,

Chris

 

[tkd1964]

No matter how Gen. Choi and his followers have twisted the recorded history, he was given an honorary 4th dan (as opposed to the legitimate rank of the original Kwan Jang Nims) for a reason. This honorary rank was also taken back because he tried to pretend it was real and demanded a higher one from the KJN of the CDK. This happened before his exile and while he still had considerable political power in South Korea and they ran newspaper stories from the time that can still be accessed and translated on the internet.

.

If you remember, in 1959, Gen. Choi traveled the Far east with nineteen of his top Black belts. GM Son wanted to be part of this Historic event yet gen. Choi refused saying that it was a Military team and he (GM Son) was not in the Military. This did not sit well with GM. Son.
Gen. Choi was the Honorary Kwang Jang because, as a Military person, he could not control a civilian gym. Plus, he was not CDK even thou what they were teaching was Tang Soo Do.
I would also point out that Gen. Choi was head of his own Kwan, the Oh do Kwan, so if he wanted to be 20th dan, he could have made himself one. GM Son was not Gen. Choi's senior, he only ran the civilian Gym. GM. Son was removed and GM Um was put in place to head the Gym.

 

[miguksaram]

Gen. Choi was the Honorary Kwang Jang because, as a Military person, he could not control a civilian gym.

I believe he was granted an honorary 4th dan in order to help spread TKD, more specificly Chungdokwan within the military. This came as a request from GM Nam Tae-hi. At that time Choi did not have an official black belt in any art.

Plus, he was not CDK even thou what they were teaching was Tang Soo Do.

True, prior to this I believe his only experience was in Shotokan where he only achieved a brown belt level.

I would also point out that Gen. Choi was head of his own Kwan, the Oh do Kwan, so if he wanted to be 20th dan, he could have made himself one. GM Son was not Gen. Choi's senior, he only ran the civilian Gym. GM. Son was removed and GM Um was put in place to head the Gym.

He formed his own Kwan but his members were mostly CDK people. GM Nam Tae-hi was the official black belt of the group and Gen Choi had the military power. This is why GM Nam asked to have Gen. Choi promoted to an honorary 4th dan. In terms of martial arts, GM Son was Choi's senior when it came to CDK. In fact, outside of ODK, you do not see Choi's name on any roster of black belts from other Kwans. All Choi did was change a name of the CDK to ODK.

 

[Earl Weiss]

All Choi did was change a name of the CDK to ODK.

You lost me there. CDK remained CDK and Oh Do Kwan which had many CDK memebers had others as well. The patterns were changed as were the specifications for stances and many techniques.

In some instances such as Jhoon Rhee followers, Old line ATA HU Lee followers, some He Il Cho followers, you can tell they do the Chang Hon style with a CDK Flavor, but it is definitely not CDK.

 

[miguksaram]

You lost me there. CDK remained CDK and Oh Do Kwan which had many CDK memebers had others as well. The patterns were changed as were the specifications for stances and many techniques.

In some instances such as Jhoon Rhee followers, Old line ATA HU Lee followers, some He Il Cho followers, you can tell they do the Chang Hon style with a CDK Flavor, but it is definitely not CDK.

At what point did he change the forms? Once he formed his own kwan did he do his own forms as well?

 

[Earl Weiss]

At what point did he change the forms? Once he formed his own kwan did he do his own forms as well?

I would have to review various sources but during conversations with GM Nam, this is how the new system called TKD was developed thru the Oh Do Kwan. General Choi would map out the forms, and as Nam said, he was the "Actor" and General Choi was the director. Once mapped out Nam would teach them to the troops.

Somewhere in the books there is a reference to what forms were developed first etc. Suffice it to say that the initial forms were implimeneted quickly. (I seem to recall four were done initialy with 16 more to follow in short order and then the final 4 after 1965.) Understandable considering what I would percieve as a desire to remove much of the Japanese influence. The first book with the new system was published in 1959 (In Korean, never seen it)

 

[Spookey]

Dear All,

I question you this...Gichin Funokoshi held rank in what art? Chotoku Kyan held rank in what art? Did they not found their own systems?

Below is a link to the first English text of Taekwondo, it was first released in Korean (including Chang Heon Hyung through Cho-Dan!) in 1959!

http://www.amazon.com/Taekwon-do-se...=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1249596615&sr=8-8

General Choi was a ground breaker. All the men of their generation where phenominal artists, creators, and proliferators! General Choi was simply in a better position than many, but that only lasted for a time.

Then after the coup that placed Park, Chung Hee in power Choi no longer had the backing of an entire nation. However, from a meger home in Canada, he did quite well proliferating Chang Heon Taekwondo...how many million strong?

TAEKWON!
Spookey

 

[Earl Weiss]

Dear All,


Below is a link to the first English text of Taekwondo, it was first released in Korean (including Chang Heon Hyung through Cho-Dan!) in 1959!

http://www.amazon.com/Taekwon-do-se...=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1249596615&sr=8-8
Spookey

I have numerous copies of the English edition. A couple signed by Gneral Choi. Was not sure it was an exact translation of the 1959 text.

 

[miguksaram]

Understandable considering what I would percieve as a desire to remove much of the Japanese influence. The first book with the new system was published in 1959 (In Korean, never seen it)

I always get a kick out of these statements here. "Removing the Japanese influence". When all the main Kwan leaders were taught Japanese karate what other influence would they have had to make their forms? No matter what pattern they put together on their own the movements would still be based in Japanese karate, at least in the beginning stages of both KKW and ITF TKD.

 

[Spookey]

I always get a kick out of these statements here. "Removing the Japanese influence".

Is that perhaps the part that Okinawa and China left out? You know, the "Japanese Arts" which came from Okinawa to the school system of Japan. I mean dont forget how Japan got the Te~!

TAEKWON!
Spookey

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[dancingalone]

Is that perhaps the part that Okinawa and China left out? You know, the "Japanese Arts" which came from Okinawa to the school system of Japan. I mean dont forget how Japan got the Te~!

TAEKWON!
Spookey

Yeah, but let's not ignore the fact that by the time Gigo Funakoshi and Masatoshi Nakayama left their mark on Shotokan karate, it had changed significantly from the karate Gichin Funakoshi learned and taught. You can see the evolution occur by comparing the photos of Gichin Funakoshi in practice to any typical JKA text. The stances became much lower and the forward lean on punches had largely disappeared. More kicks were added, hip twist and shoulder turn became pronounced, and much of the grappling bunkai disappeared in favor of sweeps and strong punches.

That's the karate TKD derived from rather than the Okinwan version. And whether one views this positively or negatively is open to interpretation, but let's be aware of the distinction since it is an important one.

 

[Spookey]

Sir,

I disagree...the Okinawan arts do use short stances that are not as deep. Much like an L-stance or a Walking Stance. This is one of the major modifications between "Japanese" Karate and Korean Taekwondo!

Shorter, upright stances increasing mobility and allow for use of the front leg. Also, the hip twist is a huge part of Shimabukuro - Seibukan through Chotoku Kyan. I will hardly agree that hip twist was an addition from Japan.

I actually listed for hours as Shimabukura explained about the stances of Okinawan Kara-Te being lengthened, deepend, and the motions exaggerated, after reaching Japan. He is head of Seibukan and 10th Dan JKA...I believe he would have a good take on the issues!

To me that seems to rival what you just posted, dont you think?

TAEKWON!
Spookey