General Choi

[Earl Weiss]

I always get a kick out of these statements here. "Removing the Japanese influence". When all the main Kwan leaders were taught Japanese karate what other influence would they have had to make their forms? No matter what pattern they put together on their own the movements would still be based in Japanese karate, at least in the beginning stages of both KKW and ITF TKD.

Probably almost as much as I get a kick out of the above statements which seem to forget that the Japanese systems derived from Okinawa. General Choi specificaly lists the Okinawan Shorin and Shorei systems, and FWIW a common theory is that as Funakoshi lists in his text that Shorin was the Okinawan pronunciation of Shaolin (there is a contrary theory) which of curse was from China. So, limting the reference or roots to Japan while correct, is unneccessarily limited.

 

[dancingalone]

Sir,

I disagree...the Okinawan arts do use short stances that are not as deep. Much like an L-stance or a Walking Stance. This is one of the major modifications between "Japanese" Karate and Korean Taekwondo!

Shorter, upright stances increasing mobility and allow for use of the front leg. Also, the hip twist is a huge part of Shimabukuro - Seibukan through Chotoku Kyan. I will hardly agree that hip twist was an addition from Japan.

I actually listed for hours as Shimabukura explained about the stances of Okinawan Kara-Te being lengthened, deepend, and the motions exaggerated, after reaching Japan. He is head of Seibukan and 10th Dan JKA...I believe he would have a good take on the issues!

To me that seems to rival what you just posted, dont you think?

TAEKWON!
Spookey

Of course Okinawan styles use more upright stances than does Shotokan. No one will dispute that.

But you want to make the connection between Okinawan karate and TKD when there is no such link historically. The "Korean karate" phase of TKD certainly owed far more to Shotokan karate both historically and technically than any imaginary kinship to shorin-ryu. Later as TKD evolved into various directions under the ITF and then the KKW, its technique increasingly emphasized kicking and of course kicking is more easily done from a high stance.

As for the Seibukan comment on hip twist, I'll defer to you there not being a Seibukan stylist myself (are you one?), but having some experience with several strains of shorin-ryu such as matsubayashi and kobayashi, neither emphasize hip twist to any great degree. They use a overall body snap instead. There are ample shorin-ryu Youtube videos if you want to compare. Just view some of the kata.

And I've certainly never heard that TKD derived from Seibukan shorin-ryu. Where do you make this linkage? Which of the Kwan founders studied Seibukan? Is it merely because you observe that both Okinawan karate and TKD use higher stances than Japanese karate? Just because two things happen to display some of the same general characteristics doesn't mean they have to fall from the same tree.

 

[dancingalone]

Probably almost as much as I get a kick out of the above statements which seem to forget that the Japanese systems derived from Okinawa. General Choi specificaly lists the Okinawan Shorin and Shorei systems, and FWIW a common theory is that as Funakoshi lists in his text that Shorin was the Okinawan pronunciation of Shaolin (there is a contrary theory) which of curse was from China. So, limting the reference or roots to Japan while correct, is unneccessarily limited.

Bunkai is key to Okinawan karate. It's undeniable that most bunkai study had disappeared from the various expressions of Japanese karate during the cultural translation. As I mentioned above, the photos of Gichin Funakoshi practicing show a distinctly different form than even that of the early JKA greats like Nakayama or Enoeda or Kanazawa.

There's a difference, just as there is a difference from Chinese martial arts and Okinawan karate although the latter was surely influenced by the former.

 

[troubleenuf]

So let me get this right... he was promoted to 4th Dan without any real training experience in TKD.... then he began his own kwan.... and eventually promoted himself to whatever rank he desired? Sound familiar? Something like many guys are doing now except they get nailed for doing it. But it was/is ok for him to do the same why?

I believe he was granted an honorary 4th dan in order to help spread TKD, more specificly Chungdokwan within the military. This came as a request from GM Nam Tae-hi. At that time Choi did not have an official black belt in any art.


True, prior to this I believe his only experience was in Shotokan where he only achieved a brown belt level.



He formed his own Kwan but his members were mostly CDK people. GM Nam Tae-hi was the official black belt of the group and Gen Choi had the military power. This is why GM Nam asked to have Gen. Choi promoted to an honorary 4th dan. In terms of martial arts, GM Son was Choi's senior when it came to CDK. In fact, outside of ODK, you do not see Choi's name on any roster of black belts from other Kwans. All Choi did was change a name of the CDK to ODK.

 

[Spookey]

But you want to make the connection between Okinawan karate and TKD when there is no such link historically.

Won Kuk Lee - Chung Do Kwan, student of
Gichin Funakoshi (Okinawan Shuri-te / Naha-te)

Byung Jick Ro - Song Moo Kwan,
student of Gichin Funakoshi (Okinawan)

Chun Sang Sup - Ji Do Kwan,
student of Gichin Funakoshi (Okinawa), close friend of Byung In Yoon

Byung In Yoon - Chang Moo Kwan,
student of Kanken Toyama (Okinawan Shuri-te)

Yeah, but let's not ignore the fact that by the time Gigo Funakoshi and Masatoshi Nakayama left their mark on Shotokan karate, it had changed significantly from the karate Gichin Funakoshi learned and taught.

I agree with this comment...also, I add the relevance that the kwan founders were students of Gichin Funakoshi. The significant change you reference in your above quote is the "Japanese Influence" that Miguksaram referenced that led me to discuss the Okinawan influence on Taekwondo, which historically does exist as noted above!

Taekwon!
Spookey

(P.S. The body snap is what I was speaking of...the center core of the body (hips and waste). is that not where the snap initiates?

 

[dancingalone]

Won Kuk Lee - Chung Do Kwan, student of
Gichin Funakoshi (Okinawan Shuri-te / Naha-te)

Byung Jick Ro - Song Moo Kwan,
student of Gichin Funakoshi (Okinawan)

Chun Sang Sup - Ji Do Kwan,
student of Gichin Funakoshi (Okinawa), close friend of Byung In Yoon

Byung In Yoon - Chang Moo Kwan,
student of Kanken Toyama (Okinawan Shuri-te)

I'm speculating any karate that these gentlemen picked up comes filtered through the Japanese lens. We know from the various discussions and research made both karate/tkd historians the Kwan curricula taught strongly resembled Japanese Shotokan karate: little if any bunkai and a focus on strong, forceful technique. To me, the proof is in the pudding. The evidence argues that any connection to Shuri-te is a tenuous one from history rather than one of actual technical similarity.

I'm also curious if there are records that show if any of these men actually did train with Gichin Funakoshi or not. It was my understanding that no Japanese training records survive for any them, the sole exception would be Byung In Yoon who was named a shihan by Kanken Toyama. And he was already a master of kwon bup/chuan fa before joining Toyama's Shudokan school.

I agree with this comment...also, I add the relevance that the kwan founders were students of Gichin Funakoshi. The significant change you reference in your above quote is the "Japanese Influence" that Miguksaram referenced that led me to discuss the Okinawan influence on Taekwondo, which historically does exist as noted above!

I'm not sure the direct link to Funakoshi is there for any of the Kwan heads. Besides, you can look at all Japanese students that we KNOW Funakoshi produced. With the notable exception of possibly Egami, all the other masters that studied with Funakoshi display the hallmarks of good shotokan technique, deep stances in kata with full hip twists and shoulder turns. I'd be hard pressed to believe any CURRENT favor to high stances in taekwondo stems from a link to Gichin Funakoshi. More likely, it's because one can kick much easier from a higher stance, and so the higher stance was adopted.

(P.S. The body snap is what I was speaking of...the center core of the body (hips and waste). is that not where the snap initiates?

Yes and no. That's a longer technical discussion than I care to delve into right now, but suffice it to say if you see a huge emphasis on hip twist in a karate-ka, you can safely assume he practices something that has been influenced by 'modern' technique ala the JKA style. There is obviously some hip vibration in shorin-ryu, but it's really a a much more subtle motion than 'twist back, twist forward'.

 

[Spookey]

Interesting, I will continue to research and will follow up once more suitable information becomes available.

(Please dont take me as argumentative, I much like yourself I assume dont accept the generic answer for most things, and simply enjoy looking for the holes and answers!)

Good debate!
TAEKWON!
Spookey

 

[tkd1964]

I believe he was granted an honorary 4th dan in order to help spread TKD, more specificly Chungdokwan within the military. This came as a request from GM Nam Tae-hi. At that time Choi did not have an official black belt in any art.


True, prior to this I believe his only experience was in Shotokan where he only achieved a brown belt level.

Gen. Choi had a second degree from studying in Japan. As a General, he did not teach the soldiers, that was left to the other officers and NCO's. It wasn't until he was an Ambassador to Malaysia that he started teaching TKD himself. When he returned to Korea, he taught his instructors at his House.

 

[Earl Weiss]

IGen. Choi had a second degree from studying in Japan. As a General, he did not teach the soldiers, that was left to the other officers and NCO's. It wasn't until he was an Ambassador to Malaysia that he started teaching TKD himself. When he returned to Korea, he taught his instructors at his House.

To avoid confusion it should be noted that he did not teach the solders directly. Per my converstions with GM Nam, this just was not done. Have a Gneral Teach the enlisted men. Instead he spent time teaching the curriculum / reviewing technique with officers such as Nam who taught the enlistem men.

 

[Earl Weiss]

So let me get this right... he was promoted to 4th Dan without any real training experience in TKD.... then he began his own kwan.... and eventually promoted himself to whatever rank he desired? Sound familiar? Something like many guys are doing now except they get nailed for doing it. But it was/is ok for him to do the same why?

A Valid question. Yet you have to review certain things in historical context.

1. He was promoted without any real training in TKD.
Well, TKD did not exist until he named it so it would have been impossible for him to have trained in it. It is like saying Funakoshi or Kano rec'd a certain rank in Shotokan or Judo without training in it. The situation was not unlike other Ryo or Kwan founders. Few had reached high ranks (3 -4 degree) in other systems before founding their systems. I do not know, but it would be interesting to know Lee won Kuk's HSotokan rank before founding the CDK, or for that matter Funakoshi;s before founding Shotokan.

2. Major difference between now and then. Now people prpomote themselves and start gyms or systems often recruiting people who know little. General Choi recruited top martial artists not only from within Korea but outside as well and convinced them to follow him. The convincing took many forms. However, these people, martial Art luminaries of their day elected to follow him and recognize him as the developerand head of this new system. Of course, we all know that the political winds changed so many were convinced to leave him as well.

 

[Twin Fist]

1. He was promoted without any real training in TKD.
Well, TKD did not exist until he named it

horse hockey

those guys were practicing something, and it had a name, SHOTOKAN

re-naming it TKD didnt change what it was

if ANYTHING, all Choi did was engage in copyright infringment

your Choi worship has gone a little too far.

 

[chrispillertkd]

horse hockey

those guys were practicing something, and it had a name, SHOTOKAN

re-naming it TKD didnt change what it was

If you'll reread Master Weis' post you'll see that he wasn't saying the people involved, including Gen. Choi, weren't training in anything. He said, rather, that Taekwon-Do didn't exist until Gen. Choi named it. I would agree that changing the name of Shotokan didn't change it to Taekwon-Do. Developing the new patterns, on the other hand, is more than renaming something. As did Gen. Choi's development of a specific philosophical basis for his martial art.

if ANYTHING, all Choi did was engage in copyright infringment

Interesting. Who had copyright on Shotokan material? I'd like to know.

I do know that Funakoshi didn't even like the idea of naming his style but basically his senior students wanted to call what he was teaching them something specific.

your Choi worship has gone a little too far.

I find Master Weiss to be rather objective in his references to Gen. Choi, more so than some ITF people and certainly more so than some non-ITF people.

On the other hand, your little rant here certainly leaves the bounds of common courtesy.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Twin Fist]

Chris,
Earl, and thats all he is, EARL, spent the better part of 6 pages telling me I was doing a kata wrong, and that I should tell my instructor they were wrong.

fat chance I am gonna call EARL a master of anything, and he hasnt earned any courtesy from me. Plus, i have little patience for people that willingly buy into lies and falsehoods.

that aiside, Choi didnt invent new patterns, new anything. not untill AFTER everyone threw him out and wanted nothing to do with him.

he came up with a new name for something old, and pretended it was something new

and i dont mean LITERAL copyright infringment, but it may as well be.

 

[Twin Fist]

that Taekwon-Do didn't exist until Gen. Choi named it.

it did exist, it did have a name.

 

[troubleenuf]

From what I have read so far it sounded more like the head guys found him and reading between the lines it seems like they at first thought they could put him up front and pull the strings and still get what they wanted. Until he figured out that they had given him too much rope and he hung them with it.
Or at least tried to.


2. Major difference between now and then. Now people prpomote themselves and start gyms or systems often recruiting people who know little. General Choi recruited top martial artists not only from within Korea but outside as well and convinced them to follow him. The convincing took many forms. However, these people, martial Art luminaries of their day elected to follow him and recognize him as the developerand head of this new system. Of course, we all know that the political winds changed so many were convinced to leave him as well.[/QUOTE]

 

[Spookey]

Twin Fist,

Let us debate this as gentlemen, just you and I...

Choi didnt invent new patterns, new anything. not untill AFTER everyone threw him out and wanted nothing to do with him.

1959 - First Text of Taekwondo

1965 - First English Text of Taekwondo (w/ hyung through 1st Dan)

1966 - International Taekwondo Foundation (HQ - Seoul Korea)
(including federations in V[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, Sans Serif]ietnam, Malaysia, Singapore, West Germany, the United States, Turkey, Italy, Arab Republic of Egypt and Korea.[/FONT])

1972 - General Choi left Korea for Toronto, Canada

Per the recorded time line, General Choi presented unique, written, historical proof of not only the hyung, but plenty of "new anything" prior to when "they", as you worded it "threw him out"!

Fact based, courteous, rebuttal please!

TAEKWON!
Spookey

 

[Twin Fist]

1959 - First Text of Taekwondo

giving a new name to something old isnt new. it isnt creating anything, it is quite literally, theft. I have spoken to 1st gen students of the 1st gen kwan BB's. what was being taught was Shotokan, nothing more.

1965 - First English Text of Taekwondo (w/ hyung through 1st Dan)

yeah, with katas that were taken directly from shotokan, move for move.

1966 - International Taekwondo Foundation (HQ - Seoul Korea)
(including federations in V[FONT=Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, Sans Serif]ietnam, Malaysia, Singapore, West Germany, the United States, Turkey, Italy, Arab Republic of Egypt and Korea.[/FONT])

still teaching something old with a new name.

1972 - General Choi left Korea for Toronto, Canada

which is right around the time that TKD started ebing something other than repackeged shotokan

[/quote]

Spookey, the simple fact is that TKD for the first 20 years wasnt anything new, or remotely korean in any way shape or form

 

[chrispillertkd]

Chris,
Earl, and thats all he is, EARL, spent the better part of 6 pages telling me I was doing a kata wrong, and that I should tell my instructor they were wrong.

fat chance I am gonna call EARL a master of anything, and he hasnt earned any courtesy from me. Plus, i have little patience for people that willingly buy into lies and falsehoods.

That is your choice. No where in my post did I say anything about how you should address anyone. I addressed Master Weiss as I did because he's an VIII dan. You can call anyone anything you wish, just like you can act however you wish. We all make choices about how we present ourselves to others and how we practice the tenet of courtesy.

that aiside, Choi didnt invent new patterns, new anything. not untill AFTER everyone threw him out and wanted nothing to do with him.

Interesting. Who threw him out of what? Are you still talking about GM Son "expelling" him from the Chung Do Kwan? That's been pretty conclusively addressed. GM Son's letter didn't carry much weight regarding the other people he expelled, so why it should mean anything in regards to Gen. Choi is beyond me. But I'd be more than willing to listen to your reasoning, as long as you explain why you can ignore the expulsions of Hyun Jong Myun, Uhm Woon Kyu and Nam Tae Hi.

In any event, Gen. Choi was certainly developing his new patterns by then, even if all 24 weren't finished. You also seemed to simply ignore my previous point about the systemtizing of an underlying philosophy for Taekwon-Do, which would differentiate it from Shotokan.

he came up with a new name for something old, and pretended it was something new

No one denies Gen. Choi's training in Shotokan. Or Won Kuk Lee's. Or Byung In Yoon's training in Shudokan. Or ... well you get the picture, I think. But you might as well say the otehr Kwan heads were practicing Shotokan, too, or that there's no difference between what their Kwans do now and what Funakoshi was doing then. You simply ignore the fact that the style was already changing. You might disagree on when it changed into something that was no longer Shotokan, of course, but you can't deny that it at least had started to change. Well, I mean, you can deny that but it would be odd.

and i dont mean LITERAL copyright infringment, but it may as well be.

May as well be? Why is that? Especially in light of the fact that Funakoshi didn't even want to name his style (a fact you simply ignored).

Pax,

Chris

 

[Twin Fist]

Chris,
when the term TKD was coined, they were teaching pure shotokan. I wish i didnt know the real history, I used to respect the art a lot more before i learned there was nothing NOT shotokan in it till the mid to late 60's

 

[granfire]

Chris,
when the term TKD was coined, they were teaching pure shotokan. I wish i didnt know the real history, I used to respect the art a lot more before i learned there was nothing NOT shotokan in it till the mid to late 60's

LOL, I picked that up, first time out...Tuttle's Martial Arts, I was lucky to find both TKD and Karate in the local library. made it r3eally easy, actually, because it stripped about 4000 years of patina off right there (k, 2000 )