KKW is / was ?

[Earl Weiss]

The other thread contained these quotes which is the genesis for this thread: Master Cole
"Well, we have to look at exactly what the Kukkiwon was and is. It was opened in 1972 as the Korea Taekwondo Association Central Gymnasium and remained the KTA's central gym until 1980. Everything that is the Kukkiwon today came from all the Kwan, including Oh Do Kwan, it's members, and CHOI Hong Hi. That is your lineage, I think you have no other as far as Taekwondo is concerned.
　
CHOI Hong Hi was a leader of the Korea Taekwondo Association, a participant and an architect of the KTA's Central Gymnasium curriculum (along with other ITF members). CHOI Hong Hi even finalized the KTA name.

So, what part of the fact that the "Kukkiwon was the KTA central gym that CHOI Hong Hi helped create and presided over" do you not understand?
　
You have your history in the wrong order. in 1961 CHOI Hong Hi was a leader and architect of the KTA and the KTA Central Gymnasium. The KTA Central Gymnasium existed before CHOI Hong Hi created his ITF in 1966. When he did create his ITF, all the new members where all members of the KTA. Many remained members, even after Choi left Korea.

In 1973, KTA changed the name of their central gym to Kukkiwon. That did not change anything but the name, it still functioned as their central gymnasium until February 5, 1980, years after Choi has left South Korea.

The KTA Central Gymnasium (later re-named the Kukkiwon) predates the ITF's formation."
Puunui
"Kukkiwon was founded on November 30, 1972."

OK, so history tells us that General Choi was a leader of the KTA and had a hand in establishing the central gym which was later renamed the KKW.

We can quibble over semantics about who or what is included in who's lineage but my real question involves whether there was a distinction at a certain time about what was merely a gym and when a "KKW set of standards and practices was established" (Not a set of standards and practices later adopted by something called the KKW, but their own standards and practices.)

Of course it would be of interest as to if / when KKW adopted initialy adopted some set of standards and practices from some prior group, org. etc. and exactly what and when that was.

I know there aren't always bright lines of distinction. If I change my name I am still the same person. However, when things were changed to the KKW I view it as a new and different entity. (I understand that this is not neccessarily a perspective shared by all.) Now, lest you think this is merely some bias toward teh KKW, I have the same view of any ITF post General Choi versus pre General Choi.

These are organizations. They are born, they die. If they are born after me, they are not part of my lineage, although we may share a lineage.

 

[mastercole]

The other thread contained these quotes which is the genesis for this thread: Master Cole
"Well, we have to look at exactly what the Kukkiwon was and is. It was opened in 1972 as the Korea Taekwondo Association Central Gymnasium and remained the KTA's central gym until 1980. Everything that is the Kukkiwon today came from all the Kwan, including Oh Do Kwan, it's members, and CHOI Hong Hi. That is your lineage, I think you have no other as far as Taekwondo is concerned.
　
CHOI Hong Hi was a leader of the Korea Taekwondo Association, a participant and an architect of the KTA's Central Gymnasium curriculum (along with other ITF members). CHOI Hong Hi even finalized the KTA name.

So, what part of the fact that the "Kukkiwon was the KTA central gym that CHOI Hong Hi helped create and presided over" do you not understand?
　
You have your history in the wrong order. in 1961 CHOI Hong Hi was a leader and architect of the KTA and the KTA Central Gymnasium. The KTA Central Gymnasium existed before CHOI Hong Hi created his ITF in 1966. When he did create his ITF, all the new members where all members of the KTA. Many remained members, even after Choi left Korea.

In 1973, KTA changed the name of their central gym to Kukkiwon. That did not change anything but the name, it still functioned as their central gymnasium until February 5, 1980, years after Choi has left South Korea.

The KTA Central Gymnasium (later re-named the Kukkiwon) predates the ITF's formation."
Puunui
"Kukkiwon was founded on November 30, 1972."

OK, so history tells us that General Choi was a leader of the KTA and had a hand in establishing the central gym which was later renamed the KKW.

We can quibble over semantics about who or what is included in who's lineage but my real question involves whether there was a distinction at a certain time about what was merely a gym and when a "KKW set of standards and practices was established" (Not a set of standards and practices later adopted by something called the KKW, but their own standards and practices.)

Of course it would be of interest as to if / when KKW adopted initialy adopted some set of standards and practices from some prior group, org. etc. and exactly what and when that was.

The Kukkiwon was nothing more than a continuum of the KTA Central Gymnasium. Nothing changed the day they changed the name. People came to work there, got coffee and did the same thing they did the day before, print Dan certificates, organized training, continue to conduct research, receive guest, etc. There was no special point in time where the Kukkiwon adopted KTA standards. "Kukkiwon" was simply a name change to honor President PARK Chung Hee's calligraphy wielding "Kukki Taekwondo" proclaiming Taekwondo as "National Sport Taekwondo." So they felt now with Taekwondo as the National Sport, the KTA Central Gymnasium would now officially be main national center of techniques training, so they named it, literally "National Technique Center". It's that simple.

KTA continued to run their Central Gym as always, until February 5, 1980. The Kukkiwon officially became a completely separate organization from the KTA and the KTA stopped issuing Dan certificates on that day and has not issued any since.

I know there aren't always bright lines of distinction. If I change my name I am still the same person. However, when things were changed to the KKW I view it as a new and different entity. (I understand that this is not neccessarily a perspective shared by all.)

It's not a view held by some, it is a fact. Maybe a simple way of looking at it is that the KTA Central Gym was like a department with in the KTA became it's own entity.

Now, lest you think this is merely some bias toward teh KKW, I have the same view of any ITF post General Choi versus pre General Choi.

Nothing special happened in 1966 either. When Choi founded the ITF, the Taekwondo he was teaching remained the same and it kept following it's natural revolution of change and is where it is today simply because of that evolution, not because of what happened on that day in 1966.

These are organizations. They are born, they die. If they are born after me, they are not part of my lineage, although we may share a lineage.

True, if that were the case for the Kukkiwon. The organization that we know as the Kukkiwon today came into existence in 1961, and CHOI Hong Hi was a major participant in it's formation, and it's evolution. It evolved over the years to what we have today. And that is still evolving. I suspect the name won't change this time, it simply vanish when the functions of the old KTA Central Gym are absorbed into Taekwondowon (Taekwondo Park)

I can say my roots are from Jidokwan (which they are), but not the KTA if it pleased me, however if I made that statement, it would not be fact.

 

[Earl Weiss]

KTA continued to run their Central Gym as always, until February 5, 1980. The Kukkiwon officially became a completely separate organization from the KTA and the KTA stopped issuing Dan certificates on that day and has not issued any since.

So, when did the KKW start issuing Dan Certificates? Was it in 1980, or did it start before then and the certificates were also issued by the KTA or something else?

 

[terryl965]

OK let me just play a real dumbass here: What we know as WTF TKD is simply KKW TKD as of today. There really is not a WTF TKD simply because all they do is set the standered the sport play's to. So here is my question if the KKW is simply a branch off of the ITF of yesterday why do they want to be so distance from them? I mean I may hate my sister but I still tell people she is part of the family. (Just for the rocord I do not hate my sister) Also why have the KKW and the ITF not been able to find a common ground so TKD can share and grow as one?

 

[puunui]

Of course it would be of interest as to if / when KKW adopted initialy adopted some set of standards and practices from some prior group, org. etc. and exactly what and when that was.

I believe that throughout taekwondo's early history, the pioneers struggled to find a common set of standards that would be agreeable to all. This start as early as 1946, continued with the creation of the Korea Kong Soo Do Association, then to the Korea Taesoodo Association, the Korea Taekwondo Association and finally the Kukkiwon. I don't think you can separate by bright lines these efforts from each other. For a blow by blow breakdown on those efforts, please read the Modern History translation. It explains the process of unification quite well.

These are organizations. They are born, they die. If they are born after me, they are not part of my lineage, although we may share a lineage.

ok.

 

[puunui]

So, when did the KKW start issuing Dan Certificates? Was it in 1980, or did it start before then and the certificates were also issued by the KTA or something else?

I want to say that it was in 1973. But all the Kukkiwon did was take over the responsibility from the KTA, which had previously issued dan certificates from the early 60s. In fact, your KTA dan certificate, if you have one, is or will be recognized and is accepted by the Kukkiwon as if it were a kukkiwon dan.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I want to say that it was in 1973. But all the Kukkiwon did was take over the responsibility from the KTA, which had previously issued dan certificates from the early 60s. In fact, your KTA dan certificate, if you have one, is or will be recognized and is accepted by the Kukkiwon as if it were a kukkiwon dan.

OK, lets just say 1973 or whatever. For me, (I know not for others) that would be what I think of as the Genesis of the KKW as an organization, and not just a gym that had one name and then adopted another name. In the other "lineage" thread I think I used 1974. (If wrong, my bad.) So, when people just use the term KKW it usualy refers to the organization. If they are referring to the place this is typicaly evident from the context i.e. "I trained at the KKW".

So, from a semantics standpoint the Place may "Have a place" in ITF lineage, AFAIAC my point with regard to the organization is that it does not. My TKD training began before the KKW, as did my instructors. (Well there were those collee years where the guy had a WTF flag on the wall, not sure if he was officialy KKW) The KKW organization is not in my lineage.

My Ancestors traced directly thru a parent and theri parents etc. are in my lineage. Such ancestors have married into another family at various points. The spouses, siblings of spouses, parents of spouse, children of ancestors are not in my lineage. Related, yes. Lineage - no.

 

[puunui]

OK, lets just say 1973 or whatever. For me, (I know not for others) that would be what I think of as the Genesis of the KKW as an organization, and not just a gym that had one name and then adopted another name. In the other "lineage" thread I think I used 1974. (If wrong, my bad.) So, when people just use the term KKW it usualy refers to the organization. If they are referring to the place this is typicaly evident from the context i.e. "I trained at the KKW".

You are trying to create bright lines where none exist. The evolution of taekwondo was and is an ongoing process, which continues today. The Kukkiwon carried on the same work started by the KTA, using the KTA standards and poomsae. The palgwae, taeguek and yudanja poomsae were created by a KTA committee, not a kukkiwon committee, and they predate the building of the kukkiwon, but yet we all call them kukkiwon poomsae today.

So, from a semantics standpoint the Place may "Have a place" in ITF lineage, AFAIAC my point with regard to the organization is that it does not. My TKD training began before the KKW, as did my instructors. (Well there were those collee years where the guy had a WTF flag on the wall, not sure if he was officialy KKW) The KKW organization is not in my lineage.

Sounds like you are going out of your way to exclude yourself. Which is fine. If you don't wish to include the kukkiwon in your lineage, you don't have to. No one is going to stop you, certainly not the kukkiwon.

My Ancestors traced directly thru a parent and theri parents etc. are in my lineage. Such ancestors have married into another family at various points. The spouses, siblings of spouses, parents of spouse, children of ancestors are not in my lineage. Related, yes. Lineage - no.

More like saying you are not part of your mother's line because she changed her name when she married your father.

 

[Earl Weiss]

You are trying to create bright lines where none exist.






More like saying you are not part of your mother's line because she changed her name when she married your father.

I reject your reality and substitute my own.

 

[puunui]

I reject your reality and substitute my own.

You can do that.