How did Taekwon-Do (1955) predating 1966 look like?

[Laplace_demon]

I don't like the way KKW patterns are executed. Further, the blocks don't look organic from such ridiciously high stances (not really a stance at all). The actual "choreography" of the patterns is less objectionable. Neither The ITF or KKWs patterns have anything to do with their sparring format. So they are pretty much tied in that negative respect.

 

[Laplace_demon]

ITF without Sine Wave (which they only incorporated because the General wanted it) is probably my favourite, although I haven't seen all TKD patterns.

 

[Tez3]

other than the fact aside from traditional styles (which tend to be more Tang Soo Do) that the WTF nor the ITF do Pinan Katas?

Or even look like theyre doing any Shuri-Te branch forms?

I know the Pinan katas very well though in the Wado form (which actually is only very slightly different from the Shotokan ones). I've seen the patterns in TKD and they are not in the least alike. I also know the TSD hyungs very well and they are simpler versions ( to me) of the karate ones.
When I went along to my friends TKD class, he was the instructor, when his students did their patterns I did my katas, we had an interesting time looking at the differences, we all enjoyed exploring each others style of martial art. I'd recommend it, if you can do it without saying 'we do it better ' lol!

 

[TrueJim]

...the blocks don't look organic from such ridiculously high stances...Neither The ITF or KKWs patterns have anything to do with their sparring format...

From what I've read, one reason high stances are emphasized in the first few Taegeuk forms is specifically to prepare the student for sparring earlier in their training. The predecessor forms (the Palgwae forms) used lower stances in their first few forms, which presumably were believed to not prepare students as well for sparring. It's a credible explanation too, since Ji Do Kwan was finally represented in the design of the Taegeuk forms (but Ji Do Kwan was not represented in the design of the Palgwae forms), and Ji Do Kwan was known for its outstanding sparring.

Taegeuk Poomsae - Taekwondo Wiki

 

[Tony Dismukes]

huh!? .... not sure what that has to do with wooden blocks under your tires... or why you appear to have signed that as tez......but ok

He was quoting an earlier post from Tez where she made what I assume is a typo. (If it isn't, then she can tell us all about really old traditional arts. )

 

[Tez3]

He was quoting an earlier post from Tez where she made what I assume is a typo. (If it isn't, then she can tell us all about really old traditional arts. )

I'd like to say it was the computer that got it wrong but I cannot tell a lie, it was I. ( unless the computer was channelling how I felt reading some of the posts from a certain person on here!!)

 

[chrispillertkd]

Someone on Martialplanet forum claimed that Choi had openly stated that TKD is an incomple combat system for self defence without also mastering Hapkido(a Korean martial art! I am chocked...)
Did he in fact write that, if so why? I thought Hapkido techniques incorporated into TKD was for this reason alone.

I'd be very interested in seeing this post. Can you provide a link to it? Did the poster include any sort of citation (link, quote from a book, etc.) for what Gen. Choi supposedly said?

Pax,

Chris

 

[Gnarlie]

So Dirty Dog was wrong about the the past at least. Saying that they often overlapped is an understatement.

Because it is not important that what you say is correct. It is important that everybody else is wrong. Apparently.

Why did some ITF black belts later do KKW as well? Supposing the training is fairly traditional, what point is there? I personally don't think like KKWs patterns at all, and would find it hard to see why anyone would prefer them over the Chang Hon ones. But leaving that aside, why make a switch at all?

Both great sets of patterns, both great martial arts in their own right. Why switch? Because there's always more to learn.

Personally, I think the Kukkiwon patterns are brilliant:

• The footwork of each floor pattern spells out either a trigram from the I Ching, or a Chinese character
• The poomsae tries to incorporate techniques that reflect the meaning of each trigram or character. My favorite example is the Low Cross Block in Taegeuk Chil Jang ("mountain"): stopping the kick, rather than deflecting it...yup, that's what a mountain would do, stop it! Unyielding.
• At the same time, the poomsae build upon each other nicely, incorporating new techniques at each level.

I have tons of respect for General Choi and the Chang Hon style, but personally I like the layers of meaning -- like movie easter eggs -- buried in the Kukkiwon forms. It's obvious that a ton of thought went into those forms.

Me too. On the topic of Chil Jang, high and narrow stances but with a low centre of gravity, and unyielding combinations like the backfist, target crescent, target elbow. No mercy! Also the symbolism of bojumeok, haneul, tang and saram. The whole form focuses on moving the CoG forward, back, up and down to deliver power from seemingly unstable positions that with practice are solid as rock. Love that form.

I don't like the way KKW patterns are executed. Further, the blocks don't look organic from such ridiciously high stances (not really a stance at all). The actual "choreography" of the patterns is less objectionable. Neither The ITF or KKWs patterns have anything to do with their sparring format. So they are pretty much tied in that negative respect.

The word 'ridiculously' is rather emotive, don't you think? You walk around in the same stance all day. It is the one you are very probably going to be in during a real life conflict situation. It also allows for a huge amount of power generation when dropping out of it into other stances. Sort of a built in bonus if you like.

If by 'organic' you mean natural, those blocks look and feel perfectly natural to me. Just like any other natural movement.

I'd recommend it, if you can do it without saying 'we do it better ' lol!

Only some people are capable of this kind of tolerance in my experience. They are the ones I try to keep around.

From what I've read, one reason high stances are emphasized in the first few Taegeuk forms is specifically to prepare the student for sparring earlier in their training. The predecessor forms (the Palgwae forms) used lower stances in their first few forms, which presumably were believed to not prepare students as well for sparring. It's a credible explanation too, since Ji Do Kwan was finally represented in the design of the Taegeuk forms (but Ji Do Kwan was not represented in the design of the Palgwae forms), and Ji Do Kwan was known for its outstanding sparring.

Taegeuk Poomsae - Taekwondo Wiki

I have heard that too, but I have also heard some other hypotheses.

Like using CoG drop and waist twist for power generation. Both of these occur together naturally with a low block between movements 4 and 5 of Taegeuk Il Jang, and again between 10 and 11 and again between 16 and 17. And many times in the patterns that follow with punches and other techniques. It is difficult to get the same power going apkubi-apkubi that you can get going apseogi-apkubi, especially with a 90 degree turn.

I've also heard that the higher stances were included to make the forms easier to learn for an audience with a wider range of abilities - the consistent use of apseogi means that beginners can concentrate more on their upper body motion coordination before having to throw in mixed stances.

The best theory IMO is that the three stances in the beginner forms and the transition between them are the basis of not only manipulating your own body weight, but also an opponent's. These stances are the ones used in self defence when controlling an opponent to the ground. So they are the ones to drill first.

 

[Laplace_demon]

[QUOTE="Gnarlie, post: 1705456, member: 27131"

If by 'organic' you mean natural, those blocks look and feel perfectly natural to me. Just like any other natural movement.


.[/QUOTE]

There is no stability in such a block. Nobody stands straight up, in that sloppy manner. The Chang Hon stance is also high, but not that high. I have the right to express my opinions, be it positive or negative. Just as I have over a movie I just saw. Doesn't mean that I offend the director by saying that his movie sucked. And If I do, so be it. I wil still speak my mind.

 

[Laplace_demon]

And anyone accusing me of being a troll or a lousy beginner (yellow belt). Send me a private message and come spar me full contact at my club.

 

[Gnarlie]

There is no stability in such a block.

It is perfectly stable when I do it. Maybe you just don't know what you're doing.

Nobody stands straight up, in such a sloppy manner.

It's far from sloppy, if you believe it is sloppy then you definitely don't know what you are doing. And yes, people walk around straight all the time.

The Chang Hon stance is also high, but not that high.

... and?

I have the right to express my opinions, be it positive or negative.

Not if it is style bashing you don't. There are ways of being critical of something without being insulting towards it. You might want to steer clear of emotive language like 'ridiculously', for example. There's a difference between saying you don't know what you are talking about, and saying you are a ridiculously ill informed newbie, for example. I would never say something like that.

Just as I have over a movie I just saw. Doesn't mean that I offend the director by saying that the movie sucked. And If I do, so be it. I wil still speak my mind.

You are entitled to your opinion and the right to express it. But words like 'ridiculous' and 'sloppy' are totally subjective, and amount to bashing.

You can have your own opinion, but you can't have your own facts. And if your opinion is utter nonsense, then you can expect to be taken to task over it.

 

[Gnarlie]

And anyone accusing me of being a troll or a lousy beginner (yellow belt). Send me a private message and come spar me full contact at my club.

This site has rules about challenge posts.

Why don't you just give your posts some credibility by letting everyone know what your actual martial qualifications are? You have been asked a number of times, including by me, what your experience is within Shotokan, ITF, KKW, and other martial arts. You have systematically avoided answering these questions, which frankly combined with your posting style, attitude and lack of knowledge can only leave us to draw one conclusion: Newbie. I don't believe anyone has used such emotive language as 'lousy'.

 

[Laplace_demon]

There is no fighting stance in their beginners blocks in patterns. You don't walk around fighting. Thats why people walk around straight. Wheb they fight they switch.

 

[Gnarlie]

There is no fighting stance in their beginning blocks. You don't walk around fighting. Thats why people walk around straight. Wheb they fight they switch.

Yes, but switch to what? Certainly nothing from ITF or Shotokan forms. The typical fighting stance we see for boxing, kickboxing, muay thai, MMA (to a lesser degree) is a similar relatively high stance with a fairly even weight distribution.

Apseogi isn't actually straight up, by the way. The weight is more over the front foot. It is a representation of a mobile fighting stance, and is certainly closer to the realistic starting point that many other TMA stances.

 

[Tez3]

a lousy beginner (yellow belt).

I'm a 'lousy beginner', a yellow belt in TKD. I was also at one point a yellow belt in Wado Ryu karate and Tang Soo Do until I earned Dan grades in both. I wear a white belt in BJJ. Denigrating beginners is a very low thing to do.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

And anyone accusing me of being a troll or a lousy beginner (yellow belt). Send me a private message and come spar me full contact at my club.

Am I misremembering or did you state in an earlier post that you don't want to do full-contact sparring?

In ay case, challenge posts are not allowed on MartialTalk.

Calling you a yellow belt isn't an "accusation." That's what you told us your rank was. Folks are just taking you at your word. Being a beginner (which a yellow belt is) isn't a bad thing. All of us were beginners at some point.

 

[Earl Weiss]

ITF without Sine Wave (which they only incorporated because the General wanted it) is probably my favourite, although I haven't seen all TKD patterns.

A good grasp of the obvious. Most everything in the ITF was the way General Choi wanted it. Because.......wait for it..........this was his organization.

Reading He Young Kim's TKD History book, he relates how GM Van Binh recalled training in Vietnam with General Choi, in 1968 and learning about sine wave at that time.

 

[Laplace_demon]

And I am sure there are flaws to be find for Chan Hon patterns as well. I don

A good grasp of the obvious. Most everything in the ITF was the way General Choi wanted it. Because.......wait for it..........this was his organization.
.

And thats my point. They may later add stuff that they don't even like or find make any sense, simply to please the General. That is a bad thing, in case you guys didn't figure out where I was going with that.[

 

[Laplace_demon]

Am I misremembering or did you state in an earlier post that you don't want to do full-contact sparring?

In ay case, challenge posts are not allowed on MartialTalk.

Calling you a yellow belt isn't an "accusation." That's what you told us your rank was. Folks are just taking you at your word. Being a beginner (which a yellow belt is) isn't a bad thing. All of us were beginners at some point.

I am NOt a beginner by any reasonable definition. I have already stated repeatedly that there are black belts that cant kick. The fact that I can, doesnt mean I am good, compared to them, but in no way can I be concidered beginner level outside of mere technicalities related to belts.

 

[TrueJim]

In ay case, challenge posts are not allowed on MartialTalk.

Does that include dance-offs?