Testing for black belt

[Gerry Seymour]

They buy at wholesale and sell at retail Generally it's a $3 or $4 markup, so $4 x 4 (tests per year?) x 100 students = $1600 per year? / 12 = $133 per month extra revenue...and I bet the mark-up is more...combine that with shirts, special uniforms, seminars, etc...$$$

Most schools I've seen the numbers on have maybe a $3 markup, and fewer than 100 students, with about half of them testing about once year, the rest averaging 3 tests a year. Yes, shirts and such do have more, but that's not related to testing. Uniforms usually carry more markup (I sell mine at wholesale, rounded up to cover shipping), but most students won't buy a new uniform for years (in fact, most students will quit before they wear one out).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's fair enough done that way.

I've heard of a 'chain school' (from an ex student) where for each kup they'd do a mini test - say a third of your pattern and a bit of theory - at least once a month (at a 'discounted' fee ) and only when you'd collected 3 tags could you take the actual (full price...) test. So in effect, 4 tests per grade.

None of those tests were included in the (already high) monthly training fee

If we followed the principle of value-based pricing, that assumes there's some value to the student in all those tests. I'd argue there's a negative value (lost training time and focus).

 

[Flying Crane]

Interesting discussion, and I have been pondering my response all day and where I stand on this. And I say this as a person who previously trained for a number of years, and recently came back to it. So keep in mind as a newcomer, it is possible that there are aspect of TKD I don't fully understand yet. On the other hand, like anyone else, I have observations, and have formed some opinions.

In general, testing is an aspect of both my former style and my current style I don't like because it is a hidden fee. As far as I can tell, other than the value of performing under pressure, testing doesn't add value, from the point of view of the student. It does add a lot of value to the coffers of the dojang.

First, I will say that testing fees were a thing when I did Tang Soo Do 35 years ago and relatively speaking, the testing fees weren't cheap. So, big surprise (not), in TKD, testing fees are again, a thing. Back in my Tang Soo Do days, I assumed the testing fees were a way for local TSD instructors to help out other TSD instructors, since the way it was done back then was, we tested before guest judges, so I figured my testing fees went to pay the judges, and in turn, my master got to collect fees from other schools where he was a guest judge.

In my current TKD school, the tests are done in house by the Master, and other assistant instructors who, presumably do this as part of their jobs. And, colored belt testing is on a regular schedule, held once a month on the last Saturday of the month. So as far as testing fees are concerned, they are just a hidden, or not so hidden fee.

The more I think about it, the more I wonder why the need to do testing at all. When the head instructor thinks a student has demonstrated enough proficiency to advance to the next rank. just award them the next belt.

There is another aspect of testing that bugs me. And perhaps this may be an issue where there is tension between the school and TKD in general. That is, there are clearly parts of the curriculum students are supposed to know for tests that don't get emphasized. Over the last week, I saw several of our provisional black belts literally cramming to figure out the myriad one steps, basic combinations, linear forms, forms (and the minutia of the forms, like how many movements, what does it means, etc) and sparring combos they need to know for their black belt test in just a few weeks.

And here is the thing. I think there is, maybe, too much rote memorization, especially on the one steps, and not enough realistic application that I would hope would really show mastery of these techniques. Put another way, shouldn't the one steps be practiced against an opponent, and not just memorized prior to a test? Same with memorizing facts about a form. If this is important, why aren't students required to recite this stuff every class, when they do the forms?

Now, some have suggested voluntarily skipping chances to test, but at least in TKD, the motivation to test is, they won't teach you everything until you advance to the next belt. It isn't a hard rule with every instructor but with the head instructor and his son, it pretty much is. And at least at my current school, there are advanced classes lower belts can't attend at all, so I can see that as I advance past yellow through green to purple, and eventually brown belt, there are more opportunities to learn new material, and train with more advanced students. So even though I don't like this testing system, it is something I have to do to get better.

What you are described by here is, in my opinion, a school that is giving piss-poor instruction. If it is typical that students who have an approaching test are scrambling to memorize a bunch of neglected portions of their curriculum, or the curriculum was taught very recently to simply have material to test on without really learning the material and using it to develop their skill, then quite honestly this is a school I would avoid.

The material is supposed to be useful tools to help a student develop skills. It sounds to me like the owners and teachers of the school are just going through the motions, lining people up to test and advance in rank, without really learning anything, and it sounds like testing fees are at least part of the motivation behind it. That, and perhaps genuine incompetence.

What you are describing is, in my opinion, disgusting.

 

[mrt2]

What you are described by here is, in my opinion, a school that is giving piss-poor instruction. If it is typical that students who have an approaching test are scrambling to memorize a bunch of neglected portions of their curriculum, or the curriculum was taught very recently to simply have material to test on without really learning the material and using it to develop their skill, then quite honestly this is a school I would avoid.

The material is supposed to be useful tools to help a student develop skills. It sounds to me like the owners and teachers of the school are just going through the motions, lining people up to test and advance in rank, without really learning anything, and it sounds like testing fees are at least part of the motivation behind it. That, and perhaps genuine incompetence.

What you are describing is, in my opinion, disgusting.

Wow, that is a harsh assessment, and certainly not my intention to trash my own school. I do watch closely and there certainly are some very highly skilled black belts and instructors who seem to know what they are doing. There is a guy a little older than me who is about to test for his 2nd Dan who trains insanely hard and really knows his stuff. He is sort of the guy at my school I am trying to emulate because of his age, his drive to overcome injuries, and his insight into how guys over 50 can adapt TKD techniques and still be great fighters. But, certainly not every 1st Dan, is as dedicated as that guy, and that worries me a bit. I plan on attending the black belt test in a couple of weeks to see for myself how these people do. And I will continue to watch closely to see who gets promoted and who doesn't over the next 6 months to a year. If, going forward, I don't get the answers I am looking for, I will have to re evaluate my options.

Comparing this go around with my previous training in Tang Soo do, I will say this. Nobody who regularly attended those Tang Soo Do classes would struggle to remember basics, or forms. But as far as I remember, I did struggle to find time to learn black belt level techniques and forms back then. And come to think of it, Tang Soo Do might have had even more rote memorization.

My current school offers more advanced level classes with the head instructor than my former school did. I have watched some of these classes, and they do seem a lot more physical than the basic classes I have been attending so far. So I hope that when the time comes, I will get the training I need to test for black belt, and these cramming provisional black belts are more the exception of folks who haven't put in enough time doing advanced classes. That said, I do suspect there is a fair amount of techniques in TKD that are vestigial, but nonetheless if you want to call yourself a TKD school, you need to teach them anyway.

 

[skribs]

I do ITF TKD...

What I meant was that we test for each kup level, then for each dan.

I was interpreting some previous messages where things like multiple tape bands (or extra colour stripes) were referenced, as implying multiple tests per grade...

That's exactly what I was saying. Although there is more to every test.

 

[skribs]

I think now you are focusing too much on the cost, turning the black belt into a commodity. “This” is what it costs to get your black belt...

Instead, in my opinion, the focus should be on the training. The belt should be a mile marker along the way and not the goal.

Tony’s costs could be way different: it could have taken him a lot longer or a lot shorter to earn his rank, and then the total tuition that he had paid to the school would be more or less than the numbers he cited. So i don’t think it makes sense to put it into terms of this is how much it cost to earn his rank, or this is how much the school needs to make from you in order to be financially viable. Rather, it should be this is a fair tuition for instruction. Rank will be given when and if deserved, and however long that takes is largely dependent on how hard the student works at it. Rank should simply be a blip along the way. It should not be the goal of training, and it should not be treated like an opportunity to boost revenue. I just find that objectionable.

Regarding your comments about memorization, I think a lot of systems have a lot of forms to learn. I never viewed it as memorization. I just see it as drills to work on. When we start talking about memorization, it makes me think of a performance, something to be done for a short-term purpose and then possibly discarded. I never saw it that way. To me, it’s all part of the method, and it’s all material to work on and practice forever, as that is how your skill gradually grows. I guess it might just be a different mindset about it.

And in my school, the rank and the training go hand-in-hand. The rank determines what class you attend and what part of the curriculum you receive. If you never test at my school, you will most likely get really good at the white belt techniques and the white belt version of those techniques.

For example:

• A white belt learns the basic punches and kicks, as well as some grappling techniques to escape situations
• A purple belt learns footwork to go along with the kicks, more advanced forms, and grappling techniques to take control of situations. Purple belt is also when we start contact sparring. Purple belt is also when back kick is learned, and when they start to learn some of the more technical details of their techniques
• A green belt learns to better connect punches and kicks together, and start getting more complicated kicking drills, as well as a wider variety of defense scenarios. Green belts also start to learn spinning hook kick and tornado kick, but are not expected to be proficient in these kicks. They are expected to have mastered the basics, but continue to get more and more details to continue to improve them
• A red belt starts to learn incredibly complicated forms, much more difficult kicking drills, and again have an increase in the scenarios available for self defense training
• Some of my favorite sparring drills have come from the 2nd Dan black belt curriculum, so even if I just got a black belt and stopped ranking up, I would have missed out on training.

Now, a big part of the reason for this is the shear number of students we have. We have 10 different classes based on age/rank, and each class usually has 12-25 people in it. We use the your rank to determine what class you should be in, and therefore what part of the curriculum we should be teaching.

If you are a white belt in our system for a year, you probably won't get much individual instruction, because our attention will usually go to those who need the most help. If you have a solid grasp of the white belt curriculum and are performing above a white belt level, then I will probably use you as an example for some of the techniques, but my attention will gravitate to the new person who just came in, to the teenager who needs help focusing, or to the middle-aged guy who is really struggling to get his body to understand what his mind sees.

You might get to work on some of the details to improve your technique, but you won't be pushed as hard to improve as you would if you tested up. If two similar people were to start at the same time, with the only difference in their natural ability and their diligence in training is that one person opted to stay a white belt and the other tested all the way to blue belt, I would expect the blue belt to be far ahead of the white belt, because:

• He's constantly had instruction to improve his technique to the blue belt standard, while the white belt probably only gets these tidbits once every couple weeks or so
• He's surrounded by students at the blue belt level instead of the white belt level, and whether by comradery or by competition, has risen to the challenge
• He's been exposed to a larger variety of techniques and footwork, and has a more complete toolkit
• Related to the point above - sometimes the dots connect better when you are doing something more complicated.

Other arts will do this differently. Arts without a belt or rank system will have a different way of organizing their curriculum and their classes. But if you go to a school where rank is a thing, then it's probably a thing for a reason, and you're holding yourself back if you refuse to rank up.*

*I'm not saying you should rush through the ranks. In Taekwondo I've basically tested as fast as I could, but in Hapkido I'm taking my time until I can master the material at my given rank. But in both cases, once I am ready for the next test, I test.

 

[JR 137]

That's fair enough done that way.

I've heard of a 'chain school' (from an ex student) where for each kup they'd do a mini test - say a third of your pattern and a bit of theory - at least once a month (at a 'discounted' fee ) and only when you'd collected 3 tags could you take the actual (full price...) test. So in effect, 4 tests per grade.

None of those tests were included in the (already high) monthly training fee

That’s just disgusting. Same as charging for the stripes mentioned by the OP in between tests. Same as around me, there’s a school that makes all black belts “re-certify” (I think is their term) every 9 months. So they’re tested on their current rank material, and if they fail once or twice (or some number) during their entire time between dan tests, they have to re-take their entire dan test for their rank all over again. If it’s all free, it’s a decent way to assure people are progressing rather than being complacent (I think there’s too many cons though). Problem is it isn’t free more cheap. Something like $100 each time. Just disgusting IMO.

My former organization uses/used stripes in between kyu tests. You were tested on kata, then other standardized stuff. Pass them both, you were eligible for testing. The stripe tests were free, so it was all good. If they charged, I’d have walked out.

 

[Flying Crane]

Wow, that is a harsh assessment, and certainly not my intention to trash my own school. I do watch closely and there certainly are some very highly skilled black belts and instructors who seem to know what they are doing. There is a guy a little older than me who is about to test for his 2nd Dan who trains insanely hard and really knows his stuff. He is sort of the guy at my school I am trying to emulate because of his age, his drive to overcome injuries, and his insight into how guys over 50 can adapt TKD techniques and still be great fighters. But, certainly not every 1st Dan, is as dedicated as that guy, and that worries me a bit. I plan on attending the black belt test in a couple of weeks to see for myself how these people do. And I will continue to watch closely to see who gets promoted and who doesn't over the next 6 months to a year. If, going forward, I don't get the answers I am looking for, I will have to re evaluate my options.

Comparing this go around with my previous training in Tang Soo do, I will say this. Nobody who regularly attended those Tang Soo Do classes would struggle to remember basics, or forms. But as far as I remember, I did struggle to find time to learn black belt level techniques and forms back then. And come to think of it, Tang Soo Do might have had even more rote memorization.

My current school offers more advanced level classes with the head instructor than my former school did. I have watched some of these classes, and they do seem a lot more physical than the basic classes I have been attending so far. So I hope that when the time comes, I will get the training I need to test for black belt, and these cramming provisional black belts are more the exception of folks who haven't put in enough time doing advanced classes. That said, I do suspect there is a fair amount of techniques in TKD that are vestigial, but nonetheless if you want to call yourself a TKD school, you need to teach them anyway.

I appreciate the clarification.

It may be that your school is perfectly fine. Obviously I am not there to see what is going on and make some kind of judgement on it.

I think sometimes people who may have experience with only one school may have landed in a bad school and don’t realize it because they have no other experience to compare it to. I don’t know if that describes you or not.

Of course there are always those students who don’t train with committment and struggle to remember their material. To them, it may seem like a memorization task.

But the way you had described it just raised some red flags in my mind.

If those issues are regular and prevalent, then I see that as a serious problem with the quality of the instruction. If those issues are limited to a few individuals who don’t or can’t give some real committment to their training, then it’s not an issue.

But the things that cause the alarm bells to go off in my head are if material is being taught just before a test, without time for the student to train with that material and get to really understand it first. If the material is being taught simply to have something to test you on, that is a problem.

If things like forms are taught and then never get revisited except for test day, that is a problem. Not every system uses forms/kata/poomsae, and that is fine. They are not necessary in order to train a martial system. But if they are used, then they need to be trained diligently and they need to be explored to understand the lessons that they hold, and to drill that material. Otherwise the forms practice is useless. I get the feeling that in a lot of schools, forms are just filler material. They exist in the curriculum as a nod to “tradition”, but nobody understands them as a genuine training tool, and nobody is doing them well, and nobody can seem to remember them because they are rarely trained or are treated as a simple warmup exercise, done quickly and without thought, and rushed through to get to the “real” stuff.

If students are generally scrambling around to remember their material for test day, that is a problem. They ought to be training this material on a regular basis, and it should no longer be a memorization exercise. They ought to be LEARNING the material, not just serially memorizing it and forgetting it.

So if these issues are uncommon, then the school may be just fine. But if these issues are typical and common and prevalent, most of the students fit this description, then the school is giving poor instruction, in my opinion.

Students need to be responsible for the ongoing practice of what they have learned. They need to practice outside of class as well. If they are not doing that, then they will run into some of these problems. So the students have some responsibility for their own failings as well. But the practices of the instructor in how he is teaching and running the school, can definitely set up the student for failure. But the failure is masked as a success and a new rank is awarded and another fee is collected.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But the things that cause the alarm bells to go off in my head are if material is being taught just before a test, without time for the student to train with that material and get to really understand it first. If the material is being taught simply to have something to test you on, that is a problem.

The only exception I can think of to this objection would be if the objective is for the student to kind of know something they'll be focusing on in the next part of the curriculum. It feels backwards to me, but I can see how it might work. So, I teach you the Front Wrist Throw (a version of Kote Gaeshi) a week before your test, and you're expected to be able to get through the basic movements and look sort of correct. Right after your test, we spend the next several classes digging into that technique and its applications in depth. Again, it feels backwards, but I could see it being workable. If the test is the endpoint, then it makes no sense to me to have last-minute material.

If things like forms are taught and then never get revisited except for test day, that is a problem. Not every system uses forms/kata/poomsae, and that is fine. They are not necessary in order to train a martial system. But if they are used, then they need to be trained diligently and they need to be explored to understand the lessons that they hold, and to drill that material. Otherwise the forms practice is useless. I get the feeling that in a lot of schools, forms are just filler material. They exist in the curriculum as a nod to “tradition”, but nobody understands them as a genuine training tool, and nobody is doing them well, and nobody can seem to remember them because they are rarely trained or are treated as a simple warmup exercise, done quickly and without thought, and rushed through to get to the “real” stuff.

Agreed. I'd sooner see forms go untested but used as tools for learning than the other way around. The only good use I can see for a form that's not tied to principles is as a warm-up exercise. It has no real MA value, but the range of movement could be useful. Of course, some old-style calisthenics will do that, too, with a lot less memorization needed.

 

[skribs]

That’s just disgusting. Same as charging for the stripes mentioned by the OP in between tests. Same as around me, there’s a school that makes all black belts “re-certify” (I think is their term) every 9 months. So they’re tested on their current rank material, and if they fail once or twice (or some number) during their entire time between dan tests, they have to re-take their entire dan test for their rank all over again. If it’s all free, it’s a decent way to assure people are progressing rather than being complacent (I think there’s too many cons though). Problem is it isn’t free more cheap. Something like $100 each time. Just disgusting IMO.

My former organization uses/used stripes in between kyu tests. You were tested on kata, then other standardized stuff. Pass them both, you were eligible for testing. The stripe tests were free, so it was all good. If they charged, I’d have walked out.

Why are stripe tests and solid color belt tests different to you?

 

[pdg]

Why are stripe tests and solid color belt tests different to you?

I think the issue is using a stripe as a 'sub-kup/kyu' test.

If the stripe represents a 'full' grade, then it's a full test (like we use striped belts between solid colour, 9th kup is white with yellow stripe, 7th is yellow with green stripe, and so on), but if you have to accumulate a number of stripes and tests to get from, say, 8th to 7th it gets silly.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Why are stripe tests and solid color belt tests different to you?

I think the difference he's looking at is somewhat subjective, but real. If a style has 5 kyu/kup levels, then that should be 5 tests. If the school is charging a nominal fee for those (say $40), that's not a big deal. But if the school uses stripes between as an excuse to add more fees (testing for each stripe, and charging another $20 for each), that bothers me. Mind you, some styles have 3 kyu/kup, and others have 10, so it's somewhat a matter of perception.

 

[skribs]

I think the difference he's looking at is somewhat subjective, but real. If a style has 5 kyu/kup levels, then that should be 5 tests. If the school is charging a nominal fee for those (say $40), that's not a big deal. But if the school uses stripes between as an excuse to add more fees (testing for each stripe, and charging another $20 for each), that bothers me. Mind you, some styles have 3 kyu/kup, and others have 10, so it's somewhat a matter of perception.

Even with 28 tests to get your black belt at the other school, I didn't feel like any of it was adding fees to make the journey more expensive.

If anything, it was adding requirements to make the journey take more time. The master at that school didn't want just anyone to get their black belt. He wanted them to have worked real hard for several years before getting it, so that the black belt meant something.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Even with 28 tests to get your black belt at the other school, I didn't feel like any of it was adding fees to make the journey more expensive.

If anything, it was adding requirements to make the journey take more time. The master at that school didn't want just anyone to get their black belt. He wanted them to have worked real hard for several years before getting it, so that the black belt meant something.

As I said, it's somewhat a matter of perception. If the tests seem to have a real function, there's less objection to them - and to some reasonable fee attached. I don't personally like testing fees (I'd consider some small promotion fee to cover belts and such), but I don't really object to their use when they are reasonable.

 

[Flying Crane]

Even with 28 tests to get your black belt at the other school, I didn't feel like any of it was adding fees to make the journey more expensive.

If anything, it was adding requirements to make the journey take more time. The master at that school didn't want just anyone to get their black belt. He wanted them to have worked real hard for several years before getting it, so that the black belt meant something.

A lot of that would depend on how often the stripe tests are held and what they are actually testing.

If you have 10 kyu gradings and you need to test for and earn four stripes for each before you can then test again for the full kyu promotion, and tests for stripes are held every two weeks, with an additional fee, that seems like a problem to me. Tests are so frequent that there would be little change in a student from one to the next, it looks suspiciously like the teacher is just artificially creating a need for frequent tests and frequent extra fees. That is 40 tests before black belt, each with a fee.

Or

If you have three kyu gradings, and you have to earn three stripes for each before testing for the full kyu promotion, and stripe tests are held every 6-9 months or so, that seems less suspicious. That is nine tests before black belt, with significant training time in between.

Or

You simply have ten kyu gradings with no stripes, tests are held every 9-12 months, there are ten tests before black belt. Very straight forward and simple, and roughly equivalent to option number two, above.

So it really depends on the setup.

 

[pdg]

I have a mathematical issue with this part of your post:

If you have 10 kyu gradings and you need to test for and earn four stripes for each before you can then test again for the full kyu promotion, and tests for stripes are held every two weeks, with an additional fee, that seems like a problem to me. Tests are so frequent that there would be little change in a student from one to the next, it looks suspiciously like the teacher is just artificially creating a need for frequent tests and frequent extra fees. That is 40 tests before black belt, each with a fee.

That'd be 50 tests (4 stripes x 10 grades, plus 10 grades).

Apart from that - as you were

 

[pdg]

Oh, there's also the interpretation of what a stripe consists of, which I alluded to before.

We use solid colours for even numbered kup grades, and odd numbered grades have a stripe of the 'next' colour along their length.

10 grades, 10 belts (5 solid, 5 striped).

Same as if you kept your white belt and added a wrap for each grade, get to 10, test for black.

As said by @Flying Crane , loads of intermediate mini tests a couple of weeks apart just don't seem warranted to me...

 

[JR 137]

Why are stripe tests and solid color belt tests different to you?

A stripe test was a low-pressure, part of class time kind of thing. We’d individually stand in front of the class, do our kata, critique each other, then line back up. Before lining back up, my teacher would put a strip of tape around my belt.

Same for the second stripe test, which was one-step and similar standardized stuff.

If it was an academic class, it would be the difference between a quiz and a final cumulative exam.

Why would I be out if I had to pay for that? All it would be IMO is nickeling and diming. What justification is there to pay for a 2 minute assessment, paying it twice, and then paying for the actual belt promotion test? How much does a strip of electrical tape cost?

Maybe I’m missing something.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have a mathematical issue with this part of your post:



That'd be 50 tests (4 stripes x 10 grades, plus 10 grades).

Apart from that - as you were

Couldn't help yourself, could you?

 

[Flying Crane]

I have a mathematical issue with this part of your post:



That'd be 50 tests (4 stripes x 10 grades, plus 10 grades).

Apart from that - as you were

Yes, I was just noticing that myself. Thank you for keeping me in my toes.

It is true for option 2 as well. It is three stripe for each kyu, and three kyu tests, total is 12, not 9.

I’ve had my head wrapped up in calculus for a while, sometimes I just cannot be bothered with such mundane arithmetic.