Testing for black belt

[Gerry Seymour]

In the end, you're paying for both, it's just how many checks you write to get there.

As long as it's not "pay me $400 and you will guaranteed get your belt" or "pay your tuition fees and show up to class and you'll get your black belt" I don't see the problem with it.

I don't think it's quite the same. To me, there's just something "off" about big fees around testing. I'm okay with an instructor charging a bit if they are doing some of the testing outside class time. I'm even okay with them charging a bit for the bother of it all. But when "a bit" gets into the $100's, that starts to bother me. Why should the year you are testing cost you 150-200% as much as the year before? I also think it can create a reason for students to delay and resist promotions, which starts to break down whatever meaning the ranks are meant to carry.

Mind you, it is entirely possible to charge $100's with a clean conscience, good intentions, and a good outcome. My reaction is gut-level, and not entirely logical.

 

[Buka]

It's pretty common knowledge that I'm an opinionated old fool. And we all pretty much carry on the customs of our instructor and of our school/organization. But you know why I think schools charge these exorbitant fees for black belt testing? [yeah, I know, because they can]

Because they don't care, they have no respect for the rank. No respect for it whatsoever, because it means nothing to them.

Which is okay, I guess. To each his own. Sigh.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I think the idea that a student is paying $x for their black belt is fundamentally misguided. You shouldn't be paying for a rank. You should be paying for the training.

In the end, you're paying for both, it's just how many checks you write to get there.

I suppose it depends on your perspective. I've spent a lot of time and money on martial arts instruction over the last 37 years, but I've never done it with the objective of earning a rank. The idea that I got more of a bargain on one of my black belts than on another based on the money I spent on training over the years is foreign to me.

My first dan rank was in Bujinkan Taijutsu. At that time, all ranks trained together and my instructors didn't have formal tests for promotions. However there was material you were expected to know at each level and students had to pay for rank certificates from Japan ($25 each for 9th through 1st kyu, $100 for 1st dan and more for subsequent dan ranks).

I accepted my first promotion to 9th kyu at a seminar where Hatsumi examined and did on-the-spot promotions for all attendees. I never got around to sending off the money for my certificate. I was pretty poor at that point in my life, so I didn't pursue further promotions for several years. Eventually I noted that my instructors had mentioned they used rank as an aid in keeping track of what students needed to be shown. I asked if it would make it easier if I accepted a promotion for that purpose and they said yes. I said what the heck and told them I'd be willing to get back into the rank game and they promoted me to 3rd kyu on the spot. A few months later they came back, said they'd reconsidered, and bumped me up to 1st dan. I paid attention after that and observed that they actually didn't change how they taught me at all after the promotions. That being the case, I saw no need to spend more money on rank certificates for the rest of my time in the Bujinkan.

Total money spent on training in the Bujinkan, probably about $6000 over 6-7 years. Total money spent on rank - $125.

My kickboxing instructor had a few years where he awarded belt ranks in his own eclectic kickboxing system. He gave me a black belt when I passed my apprentice instructor test in the Thai Boxing Association. There was no separate charge for the test, but it took place at a seminar I would have paid to attend anyway.

Total money spent on training kickboxing/Muay Thai, probably a few thousand dollars over 6-7 years. Total money spent on rank - $0.

I've never paid for a rank or test in BJJ. My promotion to black belt caught me completely by surprise. I was certain that I had at least a couple more years before I would be good enough.

Total money spent on BJJ, probably more than $10,000 over 20 years or so. Total money spent on rank - $0.

I have lower ranks in a few other arts. I never paid for a belt test in Judo, but I did pay a modest fee to register my rank with the USJA. I earned brown belt in a Danzan Ryu spinoff art and paid something like $25-30 for tests which lasted a few hours on a non-class day. I figured that was reasonable compensation for the instructor's time coming in on a Saturday.

 

[pdg]

Some of these figures for test fees - and the sheer amount of tests - kinda surprise me a fair bit...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Some of these figures for test fees - and the sheer amount of tests - kinda surprise me a fair bit...

Speaking to the amount of testing - I'm bipolar in that. I really liked getting over all the hurdles of the tests. But I really like surprise promotions (I've promoted a few yellow belts by strangling them with their new belts while demonstrating a defense).

 

[skribs]

@Tony Dismukes

At the school where you spent $6000 on training and $125 on tests, if they charged more for the tests then the tuition could have been less. So you would have maybe spent $5000 on training and $1125 on tests. This is the point I'm making. If, over the course of training you, they need $6125 to make a living, that can come a number of ways. You can have it come from $6125 of training and no money for tests, or $4000 for training and $2125 for tests.

If a school all of a sudden stopped charging for tests, they'd probably need to raise tuition fees to stay afloat.

Some of these figures for test fees - and the sheer amount of tests - kinda surprise me a fair bit...

Taekwondo has a lot to it (put another way: it lacks a clear focus). KKW TKD has a large list of forms that must be memorized, a performance and cultural aspect (similar to how Wushu is for China), it's an Olympic sport, and there's the traditional TKD self defense.

A simpler art (or more focused art, depending on how you want to look at it) might have a lot less memorization and a narrower scope, which would allow you to focus your time on the fundamentals.

 

[Flying Crane]

@Tony Dismukes

At the school where you spent $6000 on training and $125 on tests, if they charged more for the tests then the tuition could have been less. So you would have maybe spent $5000 on training and $1125 on tests. This is the point I'm making. If, over the course of training you, they need $6125 to make a living, that can come a number of ways. You can have it come from $6125 of training and no money for tests, or $4000 for training and $2125 for tests.

If a school all of a sudden stopped charging for tests, they'd probably need to raise tuition fees to stay afloat.



Taekwondo has a lot to it (put another way: it lacks a clear focus). KKW TKD has a large list of forms that must be memorized, a performance and cultural aspect (similar to how Wushu is for China), it's an Olympic sport, and there's the traditional TKD self defense.

A simpler art (or more focused art, depending on how you want to look at it) might have a lot less memorization and a narrower scope, which would allow you to focus your time on the fundamentals.

I think now you are focusing too much on the cost, turning the black belt into a commodity. “This” is what it costs to get your black belt...

Instead, in my opinion, the focus should be on the training. The belt should be a mile marker along the way and not the goal.

Tony’s costs could be way different: it could have taken him a lot longer or a lot shorter to earn his rank, and then the total tuition that he had paid to the school would be more or less than the numbers he cited. So i don’t think it makes sense to put it into terms of this is how much it cost to earn his rank, or this is how much the school needs to make from you in order to be financially viable. Rather, it should be this is a fair tuition for instruction. Rank will be given when and if deserved, and however long that takes is largely dependent on how hard the student works at it. Rank should simply be a blip along the way. It should not be the goal of training, and it should not be treated like an opportunity to boost revenue. I just find that objectionable.

Regarding your comments about memorization, I think a lot of systems have a lot of forms to learn. I never viewed it as memorization. I just see it as drills to work on. When we start talking about memorization, it makes me think of a performance, something to be done for a short-term purpose and then possibly discarded. I never saw it that way. To me, it’s all part of the method, and it’s all material to work on and practice forever, as that is how your skill gradually grows. I guess it might just be a different mindset about it.

 

[pdg]

Taekwondo has a lot to it (put another way: it lacks a clear focus). KKW TKD has a large list of forms that must be memorized, a performance and cultural aspect (similar to how Wushu is for China), it's an Olympic sport, and there's the traditional TKD self defense

I do ITF TKD...

What I meant was that we test for each kup level, then for each dan.

I was interpreting some previous messages where things like multiple tape bands (or extra colour stripes) were referenced, as implying multiple tests per grade...

 

[jks9199]

Candidates for testing where their standard belt in training settings. At our association black belt tests, the candidates where a red shirt during their testing, to differentiate them from the other people attending the camp. They have a number on it because we're just big enough we don't all know each other as well as we ought... Fees? Yeah, there's a fee. It's basically helping cover the expenses of the camp. I don't charge my students anything extra for testing, or for the black belt I give them when they pass. Underbelts? No fees in our club, with a possible exception if we ended up bringing in someone unusual for the process.

 

[jks9199]

I don't think it's quite the same. To me, there's just something "off" about big fees around testing. I'm okay with an instructor charging a bit if they are doing some of the testing outside class time. I'm even okay with them charging a bit for the bother of it all. But when "a bit" gets into the $100's, that starts to bother me. Why should the year you are testing cost you 150-200% as much as the year before? I also think it can create a reason for students to delay and resist promotions, which starts to break down whatever meaning the ranks are meant to carry.

Mind you, it is entirely possible to charge $100's with a clean conscience, good intentions, and a good outcome. My reaction is gut-level, and not entirely logical.

To me -- it's circumstantial. If I'm bringing a few people in to witness the test, have to put them up in a facility, set up special stuff (even if it's just distributing copies of a paper for evaluation or photocopying a test)... yeah, fees are reasonable. My association holds it's black belt test once a year, at a particular training event. Your fees cover the training event, and the testing process. They help pay for the site we use, the equipment that's needed, and so on.

But some of these groups or schools that hold the test on the 2nd Saturday of each even numbered month, with the testing panel entirely in-house -- and they still charge big money? I -- speaking for myself -- couldn't do that...

 

[JR 137]

I think now you are focusing too much on the cost, turning the black belt into a commodity. “This” is what it costs to get your black belt...

Instead, in my opinion, the focus should be on the training. The belt should be a mile marker along the way and not the goal.

Tony’s costs could be way different: it could have taken him a lot longer or a lot shorter to earn his rank, and then the total tuition that he had paid to the school would be more or less than the numbers he cited. So i don’t think it makes sense to put it into terms of this is how much it cost to earn his rank, or this is how much the school needs to make from you in order to be financially viable. Rather, it should be this is a fair tuition for instruction. Rank will be given when and if deserved, and however long that takes is largely dependent on how hard the student works at it. Rank should simply be a blip along the way. It should not be the goal of training, and it should not be treated like an opportunity to boost revenue. I just find that objectionable.

Regarding your comments about memorization, I think a lot of systems have a lot of forms to learn. I never viewed it as memorization. I just see it as drills to work on. When we start talking about memorization, it makes me think of a performance, something to be done for a short-term purpose and then possibly discarded. I never saw it that way. To me, it’s all part of the method, and it’s all material to work on and practice forever, as that is how your skill gradually grows. I guess it might just be a different mindset about it.

Yes and no. I like to think of promotion fees as part of the cost of attendance, not the cost of earning any belt.

My dojo charges $55/month for adults, and $45/month for kids, along with $10 off for families (one pays full price, the rest pay $10 less than full price). Kyu tests range from $45-$65. The way I look at it and using round numbers, let’s say my CI needs $1200 per year per student to operate. He can charge flat out $100 per month, or he can charge $80/month in tuition for a total of $960 and $60 four times a year for promotions for a total of $240. The $960 and $240 bring it to $1200 per year.

Another student and I were trying to figure out about how much our CI was making a year. We did a very quick calculation of tuition x students - what we think rent and utilities are. He said he doesn’t think the dojo is even break-even. I said it probably pays for itself and maybe a few days of vacation for him and his wife once a year. We didn’t include testing. Out of boredom, I later used a calculator. I now think if it weren’t for testing fees, he’d be losing money every year. He doesn’t do dan testing; we go to our organization headquarters.

Quickly looking at the average cost of rent and utilities at our organization’s headquarters vs tuition, and I’m pretty sure our headquarters dojo is about break-even without testing fees too. 350 students x $150/month doesn’t seem like it’s very profitable about 5 doors down from the flatiron building in Manhattan. Knowing a real estate guy in Manhattan, market value for his location, floor, and square footage is is right around the $50k+ per month he’s getting in tuition. Plus utilities, insurance, etc. And that’s if he’s charging everyone the full price without any discounts or freebies. When you put actual realistic numbers on paper, that $400 for dan testing is a lot easier to understand. Keep in mind dan testing for each student is only once every couple years vs every couple months per student at the lower ranks.

Being where he is and his overhead being what it is, the testing fee seems high, but it’s certainly not grossly excessive. Guys in a small town with rent that’s in the $1000s rather than $10,000s charging a few hundred bucks for the test is just awful.

 

[Flying Crane]

Yes and no. I like to think of promotion fees as part of the cost of attendance, not the cost of earning any belt.

My dojo charges $55/month for adults, and $45/month for kids, along with $10 off for families (one pays full price, the rest pay $10 less than full price). Kyu tests range from $45-$65. The way I look at it and using round numbers, let’s say my CI needs $1200 per year per student to operate. He can charge flat out $100 per month, or he can charge $80/month in tuition for a total of $960 and $60 four times a year for promotions for a total of $240. The $960 and $240 bring it to $1200 per year.

Another student and I were trying to figure out about how much our CI was making a year. We did a very quick calculation of tuition x students - what we think rent and utilities are. He said he doesn’t think the dojo is even break-even. I said it probably pays for itself and maybe a few days of vacation for him and his wife once a year. We didn’t include testing. Out of boredom, I later used a calculator. I now think if it weren’t for testing fees, he’d be losing money every year. He doesn’t do dan testing; we go to our organization headquarters.

Quickly looking at the average cost of rent and utilities at our organization’s headquarters vs tuition, and I’m pretty sure our headquarters dojo is about break-even without testing fees too. 350 students x $150/month doesn’t seem like it’s very profitable about 5 doors down from the flatiron building in Manhattan. Knowing a real estate guy in Manhattan, market value for his location, floor, and square footage is is right around the $50k+ per month he’s getting in tuition. Plus utilities, insurance, etc. And that’s if he’s charging everyone the full price without any discounts or freebies. When you put actual realistic numbers on paper, that $400 for dan testing is a lot easier to understand. Keep in mind dan testing for each student is only once every couple years vs every couple months per student at the lower ranks.

Being where he is and his overhead being what it is, the testing fee seems high, but it’s certainly not grossly excessive. Guys in a small town with rent that’s in the $1000s rather than $10,000s charging a few hundred bucks for the test is just awful.

I guess I gotta wonder: why did he set up shop in the most expensive financial distric in the country? Seems he could set up in a cheaper (but still good) location, lower the rates, have more students, and make a nice profit.

If he is pulling in over 50k in monthly fees, not counting testing fees, and can’t make a profit, I think some business decisions ought to be rethought...

 

[JR 137]

In tuition and all the testing fees I’ve paid over that 38 months I’ve been training at my dojo, it’s cost me right under $62 per month. Yeah, testing fees are such a rip off

I don’t look at it as how much it cost to earn a belt; I look at it as how much it’s cost me to train every month.

If I add in the final test before black belt, the $400 black belt test, and tuition for anoth 19 months, it’ll be $68.02 per month average.

I’m not too thrilled about the $400 test fee, but looking at it as an average of $68.02 per month to train for all that time, and I’m getting a hell of a deal.

 

[JR 137]

I guess I gotta wonder: why did he set up shop in the most expensive financial distric in the country? Seems he could set up in a cheaper (but still good) location, lower the rates, have more students, and make a nice profit.

If he is pulling in over 50k in monthly fees, not counting testing fees, and can’t make a profit, I think some business decisions ought to be rethought...

He’s not poor by any means; he’s quite well off. I’m sure he’s looked at it from every business angle. He’s making his profit on testing, tournaments, seminar type stuff, etc. He could raise tuition, but then you start getting into pricing yourself out of the market. He’s on the lower end of average tuition for the area.

He’s allegedly seriously considering moving due to the rent and utilities cost, but his heart is in that place. He’s been there over 30 years.

He opened a second dojo outside the city, and he and his son split time between the two. Tuition’s a little lower, but overhead is significantly lower.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes and no. I like to think of promotion fees as part of the cost of attendance, not the cost of earning any belt.

My dojo charges $55/month for adults, and $45/month for kids, along with $10 off for families (one pays full price, the rest pay $10 less than full price). Kyu tests range from $45-$65. The way I look at it and using round numbers, let’s say my CI needs $1200 per year per student to operate. He can charge flat out $100 per month, or he can charge $80/month in tuition for a total of $960 and $60 four times a year for promotions for a total of $240. The $960 and $240 bring it to $1200 per year.

Another student and I were trying to figure out about how much our CI was making a year. We did a very quick calculation of tuition x students - what we think rent and utilities are. He said he doesn’t think the dojo is even break-even. I said it probably pays for itself and maybe a few days of vacation for him and his wife once a year. We didn’t include testing. Out of boredom, I later used a calculator. I now think if it weren’t for testing fees, he’d be losing money every year. He doesn’t do dan testing; we go to our organization headquarters.

Quickly looking at the average cost of rent and utilities at our organization’s headquarters vs tuition, and I’m pretty sure our headquarters dojo is about break-even without testing fees too. 350 students x $150/month doesn’t seem like it’s very profitable about 5 doors down from the flatiron building in Manhattan. Knowing a real estate guy in Manhattan, market value for his location, floor, and square footage is is right around the $50k+ per month he’s getting in tuition. Plus utilities, insurance, etc. And that’s if he’s charging everyone the full price without any discounts or freebies. When you put actual realistic numbers on paper, that $400 for dan testing is a lot easier to understand. Keep in mind dan testing for each student is only once every couple years vs every couple months per student at the lower ranks.

Being where he is and his overhead being what it is, the testing fee seems high, but it’s certainly not grossly excessive. Guys in a small town with rent that’s in the $1000s rather than $10,000s charging a few hundred bucks for the test is just awful.

And I think that's part of what drives my opinion. It would actually be possible to rent a small space for a year for that $10,000 here. It wouldn't be a nice space, but still. So a $400 testing fee is much bigger here than up your way (which I was much closer to yesterday).

 

[mrt2]

I do ITF TKD...

What I meant was that we test for each kup level, then for each dan.

I was interpreting some previous messages where things like multiple tape bands (or extra colour stripes) were referenced, as implying multiple tests per grade...

When I did Tang Soo Do, we had multiple stripes on colored belts, but each was its own kup, or gup. But back then, we only had 4 colored belts before black. White, orange, green, and red. So to keep progressing, you tested for up to 2 stripes on your belt, 3 on your red belt.

 

[mrt2]

Interesting discussion, and I have been pondering my response all day and where I stand on this. And I say this as a person who previously trained for a number of years, and recently came back to it. So keep in mind as a newcomer, it is possible that there are aspect of TKD I don't fully understand yet. On the other hand, like anyone else, I have observations, and have formed some opinions.

In general, testing is an aspect of both my former style and my current style I don't like because it is a hidden fee. As far as I can tell, other than the value of performing under pressure, testing doesn't add value, from the point of view of the student. It does add a lot of value to the coffers of the dojang.

First, I will say that testing fees were a thing when I did Tang Soo Do 35 years ago and relatively speaking, the testing fees weren't cheap. So, big surprise (not), in TKD, testing fees are again, a thing. Back in my Tang Soo Do days, I assumed the testing fees were a way for local TSD instructors to help out other TSD instructors, since the way it was done back then was, we tested before guest judges, so I figured my testing fees went to pay the judges, and in turn, my master got to collect fees from other schools where he was a guest judge.

In my current TKD school, the tests are done in house by the Master, and other assistant instructors who, presumably do this as part of their jobs. And, colored belt testing is on a regular schedule, held once a month on the last Saturday of the month. So as far as testing fees are concerned, they are just a hidden, or not so hidden fee.

The more I think about it, the more I wonder why the need to do testing at all. When the head instructor thinks a student has demonstrated enough proficiency to advance to the next rank. just award them the next belt.

There is another aspect of testing that bugs me. And perhaps this may be an issue where there is tension between the school and TKD in general. That is, there are clearly parts of the curriculum students are supposed to know for tests that don't get emphasized. Over the last week, I saw several of our provisional black belts literally cramming to figure out the myriad one steps, basic combinations, linear forms, forms (and the minutia of the forms, like how many movements, what does it means, etc) and sparring combos they need to know for their black belt test in just a few weeks.

And here is the thing. I think there is, maybe, too much rote memorization, especially on the one steps, and not enough realistic application that I would hope would really show mastery of these techniques. Put another way, shouldn't the one steps be practiced against an opponent, and not just memorized prior to a test? Same with memorizing facts about a form. If this is important, why aren't students required to recite this stuff every class, when they do the forms?

Now, some have suggested voluntarily skipping chances to test, but at least in TKD, the motivation to test is, they won't teach you everything until you advance to the next belt. It isn't a hard rule with every instructor but with the head instructor and his son, it pretty much is. And at least at my current school, there are advanced classes lower belts can't attend at all, so I can see that as I advance past yellow through green to purple, and eventually brown belt, there are more opportunities to learn new material, and train with more advanced students. So even though I don't like this testing system, it is something I have to do to get better.

 

[MI_martialist]

I suppose if there's some significant charge for the belt (I've never seen anyplace that charged significantly, except maybe for a black belt), though I can't see how it would bring more testing revenue?

They buy at wholesale and sell at retail Generally it's a $3 or $4 markup, so $4 x 4 (tests per year?) x 100 students = $1600 per year? / 12 = $133 per month extra revenue...and I bet the mark-up is more...combine that with shirts, special uniforms, seminars, etc...$$$

 

[pdg]

When I did Tang Soo Do, we had multiple stripes on colored belts, but each was its own kup, or gup. But back then, we only had 4 colored belts before black. White, orange, green, and red. So to keep progressing, you tested for up to 2 stripes on your belt, 3 on your red belt.

That's fair enough done that way.

I've heard of a 'chain school' (from an ex student) where for each kup they'd do a mini test - say a third of your pattern and a bit of theory - at least once a month (at a 'discounted' fee ) and only when you'd collected 3 tags could you take the actual (full price...) test. So in effect, 4 tests per grade.

None of those tests were included in the (already high) monthly training fee

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The more I think about it, the more I wonder why the need to do testing at all. When the head instructor thinks a student has demonstrated enough proficiency to advance to the next rank. just award them the next belt.

A few thoughts on why tests are used. Firstly, if there's a reasonably large school, and some assistant/associate instructors, the CI might not get to see all a student does. In many schools, the CI does all the promotions in order to maintain consistency within the school, so they will need to test to ensure they've seen all the salient points from each student. There's also the issue of covering all the bases. In arts like BJJ, for instance, promotion is not so much about individual techniques (as I understand it). They can't have big gaps in skill areas (great in mount, awful at escapes), but they don't have to be able to do every specific technique so long as they are able to perform in all areas. But many (most?) TMA (and TMA-ish) groups also (sometimes only) consider technical proficiency by technique. To be sure no technique is missed, there has to be some sort of testing. I've been known to conduct covert testing (assigning a student to work on a set of techniques in class and making sure I see each one done well before checking them off as "passed"), but I can't skip that if technique-based evaluation is part of my promotion requirements.

There is another aspect of testing that bugs me. And perhaps this may be an issue where there is tension between the school and TKD in general. That is, there are clearly parts of the curriculum students are supposed to know for tests that don't get emphasized. Over the last week, I saw several of our provisional black belts literally cramming to figure out the myriad one steps, basic combinations, linear forms, forms (and the minutia of the forms, like how many movements, what does it means, etc) and sparring combos they need to know for their black belt test in just a few weeks.

A pet peeve of mine. I've seen things taught just in time for the student to learn them for the test. I dislike that - maybe even deplore it. Testing should be a verification, not a first step. I don't really even like to see students preparing for a test, except where they know they have a specific problem or weakness they need to shore up. IMO, tests should be far enough away from the initial learning that the student can focus on the learning and the test is just verifying they did their job.

And here is the thing. I think there is, maybe, too much rote memorization, especially on the one steps, and not enough realistic application that I would hope would really show mastery of these techniques. Put another way, shouldn't the one steps be practiced against an opponent, and not just memorized prior to a test? Same with memorizing facts about a form. If this is important, why aren't students required to recite this stuff every class, when they do the forms?

This becomes a problem when there's no focus for the forms. Students sometimes get cranky with me because I'll interrupt their form to correct some principle. They want to practice the form (rote memorization) and I want them to practice the principle. The form should be a tool for practice. I do test forms, but for two purposes: to make sure they know the sequence (since I use them as a tool, I need them to know that), and to make sure they're demonstrating the principles appropriate for their rank (and sometimes specific principles I have that student working on).

I have seen rote work on our Classical forms (which are reasonably close to what you call one steps). It bugs me. When I visit my instructor's school, I often get questions from students about where a foot goes or something of that nature. I always answer it with something like, "Why does that foot matter?" If they can answer that question, they are focused on principle, rather than the rote memorization. That principle becomes more important in live work than the rote memorization, and the live work (realistic application) is, after all, the point.