Old style rank system

[Tony Dismukes]

Is a 4 color system (white, green,.brown, black) really any more "old-school" than any other rank system with colored belts? When Kano introduced the belt rank system, it was just white and black. I've seen suggestions that Mikonosuke Kawaishi introduced the idea of other colors for kyu ranks when he was teaching in Europe, but I haven't been able to find definitive info on what those colors were. I've found one source saying they were white, yellow, green, blue, brown, black and another saying they were white, yellow, orange, green, blue, purple, brown, black. Neither source provided supportive documentation, so I don't know if either is correct.

I don't think I've trained in a system that uses white, green, brown, black. I've encountered: white, green, black (Bujinkan); White, blue, purple, grown, black (BJJ); White, green, blue, brown, black (YDS), no belt rank system at all (Muay Thai, WT, multiple others. I'm just starting in Capoeira, which has a cord system which varies by organization, but typically is built around the colors of the Brazilian flag (green, blue, yellow, and white) in different combinations.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Is a 4 color system (white, green,.brown, black) really any more "old-school" than any other rank system with colored belts? When Kano introduced the belt rank system, it was just white and black. I've seen suggestions that Mikonosuke Kawaishi introduced the idea of other colors for kyu ranks when he was teaching in Europe, but I haven't been able to find definitive info on what those colors were. I've found one source saying they were white, yellow, green, blue, brown, black and another saying they were white, yellow, orange, green, blue, purple, brown, black. Neither source provided supportive documentation, so I don't know if either is correct.

I don't think I've trained in a system that uses white, green, brown, black. I've encountered: white, green, black (Bujinkan); White, blue, purple, grown, black (BJJ); White, green, blue, brown, black (YDS), no belt rank system at all (Muay Thai, WT, multiple others. I'm just starting in Capoeira, which has a cord system which varies by organization, but typically is built around the colors of the Brazilian flag (green, blue, yellow, and white) in different combinations.

The Japanese Jujutsu I trained in the early 70s was White, Green, Brown, Black. Do not remember what the Pre-Olympic TKD was, I only know there was white, yellow, green and a belt or 2 after that before brown and black.

All CMA I trained has had no belt ranks at all. That is old School CMA ranking. All belt/sash ranks in CMA are "New School" no matter the colors used

 

[JR 137]

Kyokushin and it's offshoots are the only ones I've seen put blue before yellow. Here's the order...

White-blue-yellow-green-brown-black (there is an advanced belt in between each).

Tadashi Nakamura is the one who introduced this to Kyokushin. Prior to that, it was white-brown-black. There were 10 kyu levels, but they only got a certificate. Nakamura proposed belts to Mas Oyama while he was teaching American military at Camp Zama. A lot of the senior Kyokushin ranks opposed it, but Oyama basically said try it and see if it works.

Kyokushin subsequently added orange after white. White belt is "mu kyu" (no rank), and orange is 10th kyu. It's the same principle as systems that must earn their white belt.

When Nakamura left Kyokushin to form Seido Juku, he kept his white-blue-yellow-green-brown-black order.

My source of information is Nakamura's autobiography.

 

[Spinedoc]

In USAF aikido, it's the very traditional style of only 2 belt colors. You are a white belt, until you are a black belt, which is when you earn your hakama. My dojo makes one addition, and adds in brown belt for nikyu and ikkyu levels. Otherwise, in most USAF dojos, you wear a white belt until you pass your shodan test.

 

[crazydiamond]

That's more testing than I'd be interested in. Nothing wrong with it, just not my cup of tea, so to speak.

I hear you -kind of stressed about green belt review - but then again no one can accuse my school of giving away black belts. Not many stick around to make it to intermediate

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In USAF aikido, it's the very traditional style of only 2 belt colors. You are a white belt, until you are a black belt, which is when you earn your hakama. My dojo makes one addition, and adds in brown belt for nikyu and ikkyu levels. Otherwise, in most USAF dojos, you wear a white belt until you pass your shodan test.

I nearly went that route with my curriculum. Students seem to like getting a belt every now and then, though, so I left some in the kyu colors.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I hear you -kind of stressed about green belt review - but then again no one can accuse my school of giving away black belts. Not many stick around to make it to intermediate

It's not so much the amount at one time, but the number of times that would get me. I reduced the number of belts in my curriculum to allow students to focus more on the principles, essentially removing two tests. The material is still tested, they just get to do two tests at once, twice.

 

[jks9199]

A Swedish pop music group. Very popular in the 70's and 80's

Nope -- that was ABBA...

And, just for gpseymour...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Nope -- that was ABBA...

And, just for gpseymour...

F***!

 

[Andrew Green]

I was curious if any schools out there still use the 4 belt system( white,green,brown and black)?
My style does. With 6 steps per belt denoted by stripes in the color of the next belt. Black belt ranks work like everyone else's- 1st through 10 dan.
This system while unusual, is helpful in keeping students motivated by allowing you to adjust between 1 and 3 stripes per promotion period. A change in belt color is treated as a more in depth evaluation to better prepare students for eventual Black Belt test. The only drawback I've seen is at tournaments our plain brown belts( takes 2- 3 years) are equivalent to only purple or even green belts of other styles so they have to compete against more experienced people. But overall the system works well and keeps costs down by only buying 3 belts as opposed to 8 or 9. So has anyone seen a similar system or use one like it themselves?

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

I'd say you have 18 steps before black belt then, not 3.

How many belts you have doesn't make any difference at all. Belts are there to support retention and motivation and must work in line the way the curriculum is broken down and taught.

As far as cost goes... who cares? Say you get a new belt every 3 months, which is reasonably common. That's $2-3 per month in belt costs. Pretty small percentage of your cost of being in martial arts.

If it works for you awesome, keep doing it. But there is no right or wrong way, it's a piece of a puzzle and if what you do with belts fits with the rest of what you do rock on.

 

[Chris Parker]

Eh, as Tony said... who says that any of this is "old style ranking"?

Look... the whole idea of belt ranking is modern, starting with Kano Jigoro in the late 19th Century, taking the idea of dan and kyu from the board game Go. Initially, only black and white belts were used, which were more Kaku-obi worn with hakama and kimono, rather than the thinner (more known now) Keiko-obi, or judo-obi (as they're sometimes known) now worn. It wasn't until the early 20th Century that colours started appearing, something attributed to one of Kano's senior students, as Tony said.

Genuinely old style ranking (when dealing with Japanese arts) was the Mokuroku-Menkyo system... a form of licensing within a system used for martial arts, tea ceremony, flower arranging, kabuki theatre... pretty much any traditional art form. It was a way to show the level of authority a student had within a particular art, whereas the idea behind Dan ranking is to show a relative level of skill... which is a bit different.

As far as "white, green, brown, black", that can only be seen as "old style" for a particular style (individual), or even individual dojo, that once used such a format, but doesn't anymore... so the question is, whose ranking system are you referring to? No two arts use the same system, you know...

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Look... the whole idea of belt ranking is modern, starting with Kano Jigoro in the late 19th Century

At some point, as we get further and further into the 21st century, you're going to have to stop referring to the late 19th century as modern.

 

[Chris Parker]

Ha, yeah... I guess so... of course, I'm still going to go by the common delineation of koryu and gendai budo... so anything after 1868 is modern, to me...

... you young whippersnappers....