Stephen K. Hayes' To-Shin Do

[r erman]

Wow...

There is so much erroneous info on SKH out there.

Is To Shin Do watered down? From what I've seen, no. It's far more effective earlier on than bujinkan budo taijutsu as typically taught.

There is, however, less emphasis on proper, elongated, classical tsuki, and more emphasis on silly stuff like adrenal stress training, verbal de-escalation, situational awareness, defenses against common/rage attacks...etc. So, no, it's not like the japanese shihan teach. Obviously, with Hayes' long-standing involvement with Buddhism there is also a fair amount of self-development using buddhist principles.

Is it commercial? Absolutely. It's the one thing that bugs me about his program--I still adhere to the old extended-family dojo philosophy--not, here sign this contract, and this collection agency will send you a monthly statement, and with a two year commitment you can sign up for the blackbelt club . Of course I'm not trying to make a living at teaching either.

Has ukemi been eliminated, because it's too stressful? No. Do Quest teachers/students have poor taijutsu? No. In fact SKH has always had much higher standards than many, many other teachers. I've known students who've trained regularly for a decade or more and barely been second or third dan. Not at all like many of the six-year-shidoshi running around the booj.

What else? Oh yeah, is he out of the loop? Quit the Bujinkan? Kicked out? Jeez, guys, why don't you send an e-mail and ask him? I know people who've seen him in Japan recently with Hatsumi. There are actually very recent pictures of him and one of his groups at hombu. Shiraishi-Shihan was at one of his festivals teaching a few years ago...

I think to shin do is a culmination of what hayes has been moving towards since the 80's--an effective, modern self-defense system based on classical methodology. It's packaged well--maybe too well for some of us 'traditional-minded' folks. Kinda reminds me of a taijutsu version of Krav Maga, or one of the other reality-based systems that have a lot of marketing capital.

'Night

(p.s. Shadow Hunter, I don't know what political stuff you are talking about but Paul Mills is the true successor of Parker's You really study Hwa Rang? Which 'branch'?)

 

[Deaf]

Originally posted by r erman
Wow...

There is so much erroneous info on SKH out there.

Such as?

Is To Shin Do watered down? From what I've seen, no. It's far more effective earlier on than bujinkan budo taijutsu as typically taught.

And you have the experience to back this up? You have personally trained in the Bujinkan for how long? Just want to make sure that the above statement is based on experience and not some kyu/sho-dan from ToShinDo who thinks they know Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu because of their rank.

Even Hayes has said that his system is "distilled" and from personal experience in training in both Bujinkan and ToShinDo, it is watered down if you ask me. People not bending their knees and bending their backs, trying to force the techniques to work. Only a very few (those to whom have been training with Hayes before his total immerse into ToShinDo) have I seen them effectively do a technique.

There is, however, less emphasis on proper, elongated, classical tsuki, and more emphasis on silly stuff like adrenal stress training, verbal de-escalation, situational awareness, defenses against common/rage attacks...etc. So, no, it's not like the japanese shihan teach. Obviously, with Hayes' long-standing involvement with Buddhism there is also a fair amount of self-development using buddhist principles.

I think the keyword is LESS EMPHASIS on PROPER taijutsu! Granted, that Hayes has geared this art for more "up-scale and modern" circumstances however in the process he has also left out a LOT of the necessary skills that I believe are essential in dealing with attacks even in this day and age! Such as proper balance, proper posture and timing etc. Who said that the Bujinkan doesn't practice those same type of "silly stuff" that you mentioned? And what is wrong with how Hatsumi Sensei or the Shihan teach classes?

Is it commercial? Absolutely. It's the one thing that bugs me about his program--I still adhere to the old extended-family dojo philosophy--not, here sign this contract, and this collection agency will send you a monthly statement, and with a two year commitment you can sign up for the blackbelt club . Of course I'm not trying to make a living at teaching either.

There is nothing wrong with being commercial and making a living BUT if you are going to teach martial arts then I believe it is a responsibility of the person offering the service to provide the correct skills. Otherwise all that person is really doing is cheating people. The only thing that I see people acquiring from ToShinDo is a positive personal/spiritual experience that for some people is GREAT but the physical aspect is solely lacking.

Has ukemi been eliminated, because it's too stressful? No. Do Quest teachers/students have poor taijutsu? No. In fact SKH has always had much higher standards than many, many other teachers. I've known students who've trained regularly for a decade or more and barely been second or third dan. Not at all like many of the six-year-shidoshi running around the booj.

I'm sure the ukemi issue is a per instructors' choice but from many of the ToShinDo people I have seen training and have talked to...ukemi is no longer emphasized as much as it should be thus alot of people's skills are obviously poor quality. And just for the record, what do you think ukemi is? Punching and kicking bags? Or rolling and evading skills? Oh I can name a few teachers and students who have HORRIBLE taijutsu and I can name a few teachers and students who have good taijutsu. You'll find that in any art. Time and rank rarely have anything to do with it! IMHO it all boils down to the quality of instruction an individual receives! If it sucks then that person is gonna suck!

What else? Oh yeah, is he out of the loop? Quit the Bujinkan? Kicked out? Jeez, guys, why don't you send an e-mail and ask him? I know people who've seen him in Japan recently with Hatsumi. There are actually very recent pictures of him and one of his groups at hombu. Shiraishi-Shihan was at one of his festivals teaching a few years ago...

Never stated that Hayes was outta the Bujinkan. However, he has NOT been seen as regularly as many others. Sure I know that Hayes has been to Japan recently and probably frequently but has he trained? Really I could care less about it since that is his perogative.

Geez dude...you are talking what? 6 or 7 years ago? Is that what you consider recent? I was there when Shirashi Sensei was there at the Dayton Dojo and trained.

If my memory serves me correct, Hayes actually "dissed" the Bujinkan and it's methods in a magazine dedicated to Ninjutsu that was published about a year ago or so. I believe the magazine was titled "Ninjutsu". Everyone is entitled to their opinions so I have no beef there, but what I do NOT agree with is that ToShinDo dojos, instructors and students stating that they ARE part of the Bujinkan when in FACT the ARE NOT part of it. Do you have a Bujinkan membership card? Does your instructor have an up to date Shidoshi membership card? They are ToShinDo. Which if you ask me, is a totally different art that is based of of Hayes' experience in the Bujinkan. I don't understand WHY people cannot get this or understand that concept.

I think to shin do is a culmination of what hayes has been moving towards since the 80's--an effective, modern self-defense system based on classical methodology. It's packaged well--maybe too well for some of us 'traditional-minded' folks. Kinda reminds me of a taijutsu version of Krav Maga, or one of the other reality-based systems that have a lot of marketing capital.

Oh puh-leaze! Do you honestly believe that? Packaged well...maybe too well? Being "distilled" is a well packaged deal huh? Sorry but too much distilling causes breakdown.

Deaf

 

[r erman]

Man, you seem to have a lot of animosity.

Originally posted by Deaf
Such as?

I think I pretty well laid out some of the misinfo in my post. On the other hand there are those I've known who have a legitimate beef with Mr Hayes and some of the fanciful stuff he has opined in the past. I also think it should be fairly obvious I'm not involved with To Shin Do, as...I...criticized...the...commercial...slant...of...the...program...,(ahem)

And you have the experience to back this up? You have personally trained in the Bujinkan for how long?

Been training since the early nineties.

Just want to make sure that the above statement is based on experience and not some kyu/sho-dan from ToShinDo who thinks they know Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu because of their rank.

I'd like to make sure your bias is based on experience and not some bujinkan kyu/yudansha who thinks they know Budo Taijutsu because of their rank .

Even Hayes has said that his system is "distilled" and from personal experience in training in both Bujinkan and ToShinDo, it is watered down if you ask me. People not bending their knees and bending their backs, trying to force the techniques to work. Only a very few (those to whom have been training with Hayes before his total immerse into ToShinDo) have I seen them effectively do a technique.

Oh puh-leaze! Do you honestly believe that? Packaged well...maybe too well? Being "distilled" is a well packaged deal huh? Sorry but too much distilling causes breakdown.

Uh, I won't deny I know what you are trying to say, but, distilling is to derive/extract the essence of(i.e. concentrate), dilluting is watering down. They are completely opposite terms.

The 'too-well' packaging I refer to is the slick, commercial, McDojo feel--but that type of product is what sells...and he wants to get what he has to offer out to the most people.

And yeah, I think Hayes is more worried about self defense than having beginners get, oh, Kocho Dori down pat.

I think the keyword is LESS EMPHASIS on PROPER taijutsu! Granted, that Hayes has geared this art for more "up-scale and modern" circumstances however in the process he has also left out a LOT of the necessary skills that I believe are essential in dealing with attacks even in this day and age! Such as proper balance, proper posture and timing etc. Who said that the Bujinkan doesn't practice those same type of "silly stuff" that you mentioned? And what is wrong with how Hatsumi Sensei or the Shihan teach classes?

Dawg, you twisted my words around, LOL. I have seen some of his people lacking some of these skills, but I've seen far more in the booj not have a clue about anything but playtime and paddy-cake taijutsu.

Nothing is wrong with the way the shihan teach, but the emphasis is different. If you want to learn a historical body of knowledge primarily, Japan is the way to go. No arguments here. That's what I'm trying to say. There are far too many people hanging self-defense on their window signs(not just booj), however, and then pontificating about henka and nagare, but having no idea how to defend themselves from anything resembling a rage attack/sucker punch/weapon assault. If they can show you all the Moguri kata, but zilch about third party intervention, or verbal de-escalation they fit into this group.

How can a person claim to teach self-defense when they spend more time on shogei, and less, if any, on defending from concealable edged-weapons--the most readily available improvised weapon in our society? If you want to teach a cultural treasure first, then do so. But be up-front with those you are teaching. If you claim to be teaching something you aren't, that's being dishonest, and cheating people.

Personally, I have some major disagreements with the lack of intense, resistance-oriented training in a majority of the bujinkan(Hayes training method is not entirely exempt from this either, BTW).

There is nothing wrong with being commercial and making a living BUT if you are going to teach martial arts then I believe it is a responsibility of the person offering the service to provide the correct skills. Otherwise all that person is really doing is cheating people. The only thing that I see people acquiring from ToShinDo is a positive personal/spiritual experience that for some people is GREAT but the physical aspect is solely lacking.

Refer to the above for most of my response to this, although I will say I still really don't like 'commercial' schools.

I'm sure the ukemi issue is a per instructors' choice but from many of the ToShinDo people I have seen training and have talked to...ukemi is no longer emphasized as much as it should be thus alot of people's skills are obviously poor quality. And just for the record, what do you think ukemi is? Punching and kicking bags? Or rolling and evading skills? Oh I can name a few teachers and students who have HORRIBLE taijutsu and I can name a few teachers and students who have good taijutsu. You'll find that in any art. Time and rank rarely have anything to do with it! IMHO it all boils down to the quality of instruction an individual receives! If it sucks then that person is gonna suck!

Ukemi's that stuff with pressure points right, like Dim Mak? Just kidding. For the record I do know what that rollin' 'round is called. The second part of your paragraph seems to line up with what I'm saying above .

Geez dude...you are talking what? 6 or 7 years ago? Is that what you consider recent? I was there when Shirashi Sensei was there at the Dayton Dojo and trained.

Has it really been that long? My how time goes by.

If we ever meet, we can roll, and after I'll buy the first round.

Anything else would probably be better served in pm.

'Night

 

[Deaf]

Originally posted by r erman

Man, you seem to have a lot of animosity.

No, not really. I really could care less about ToShinDo or SKH really, I do however have a problem when ToShinDo practioners or dojos claim that because they are ToShinDo, they are automatically in the Bujinkan which is not true. Just a matter of pride and not wanting people to think nor compare me with ToShinDo.

I also think it should be fairly obvious I'm not involved with To Shin Do, as...I...criticized...the...commercial...slant...of...the...program...,(ahem)

No you did not make it fairly obvious that you were not involved in ToShinDo. The only thing you did criticize was the commercialism of the business. From all aspects of your posts, it looked very much like you were a practioner of ToShinDo. Sorry if I did misinterpret that.

Been training since the early nineties.
I'd like to make sure your bias is based on experience and not some bujinkan kyu/yudansha who thinks they know Budo Taijutsu because of their rank .

What area are you from? Just curious really.

My opinions are based totally on experience (training within the SKH system and Bujinkan both). I have no bias but I do know poor taijutsu when I see it.

Dawg, you twisted my words around, LOL. I have seen some of his people lacking some of these skills, but I've seen far more in the booj not have a clue about anything but playtime and paddy-cake taijutsu.

Well I can't disagree with you nor agree with you there. I have not had the exposure to different groups/practicioners within the Bujinkan except for my surrounding area and they are pretty damn good IMHO.

Has it really been that long? My how time goes by.

If we ever meet, we can roll, and after I'll buy the first round.

Yes time does go by quickly! And I'll buy the second round.

Deaf

 

[r erman]

I live in Southwest Missouri.

 

[Brother John]

Originally posted by higuma
And when the student advances to a certain point the art starts to be his/hers. It is a living, growing, evolving art and as such is in constant flux. Nature is not static and neither is the Bujinkan.

This is the very thing that I think makes Bujinkan Ninpo so very interesting and enticing.

As I learned in studying biology:
The organism that adapts
survives
The organism that adapts best
thrives

Your Brother
John

 

[albert]

Hayes' "Quest Centers?" that's hilarious.

 

[arnisador]

I saw in the current (Jan. 2004) issue of Black Belt that there is now a study-at-home option for this:
http://www.skhquest.com/proshop/default.aspx

Stephen K. Hayes is your personal instructor in these in-depth training DVDs exploring the classical roots of To-Shin Do. Each training session maps directly to skill certification available at the Hombu Dojo.

 

[arnisador]

Once you know that you just have to go all the way to Black Belt, you may be invited to join the Black Belt Club - a special group of advancing students who already "feel like a Black Belt inside" even though still wearing a colored belt on the outside.

Twice-per-month Black Belt Club classes provide training in skills that will be expected as part of your Black Belt test. BBC "advanced self-protection" classes include techniques related to knife, stick, firearm defenses, and ground submission self-defense, along with specialty seminars related to the Japanese roots of our To-Shin Do martial art.

Black Belt Clubs--always a warning sign, to my mind.

 

[shiro]

Yes He does still teach the Bujinkan Style Martial arts Samurai and Ninjutsu fighting wazas. But The Quest Centers do not only teach those. They teach ToShin Do, Meditation, Yoga, TaiChi, Ground fighting. They are always changing things to try to provide for their students.
I hope this answered Your original Question.

 

[gmunoz]

If the quest centers under hays are not teaching "authentic ninjitsu" what is it exactly they are teaching?

I would recommend calling the Quest Center in Dayton personally to answer all your questions specifically regarding To-Shin Do. Seems like most of the answers you're getting about To-Shin Do and Quest are biased in favor of Bujinkan organization. Try getting your about TSD and Quest directly from them. It may help.

Quest Centers have a variety of different programs. To-Shin Do is only one aspect of it all. To-Shin Do is a 21st century application of Ninjutsu as the perils of ancient Japan are non-existent today. No one today is going to use a blow-gun in a fight. TSD is a self-defense style for today.

Another progam that Quest Centers offer is the traditional Ninjutsu that was taught to Mr. Hayes from Dr. Hatsumi. If one prefers the more traditional art then that aspect is available as well. Yoga and meditation are among other things taught through the Quest system.

Again, it would be better to get your specific Quest and TSD answers by calling and asking personally. From this forum you're most likely to get naive and biased towards one's personal ninjutsu style. Everyone is entitled to their perference and opinion - that's alright. But if you have specific questions about Quest call so as to not allow haters to corrupt your decisionmaking.

 

[gmunoz]

But... again, I wanted to know, thats why I asked if it was the same group... I wasn't trying to cast stones...

Oh no! Never! Not you!

 

[Cryozombie]

Oh no! Never! Not you!

Would you like me to? Probably not...

 

[gmunoz]

Would you like me to? Probably not...

Please don't! I don't know what I'd do! OH PLEASE!

 

[shiro]

Gmunoz
I just wanted to tell You to follow Your gut on Your training.
This is my last post so good luck to all the people whos heart is in their training.
Good Day

 

[Enson]

i personally don't think this should be your last post shiro! i have seen this happen so many times. fellow ma'rs try and put you down so much that you just leave. come hang out in the modern ninjutsu with us. i think you could be a great help!

 

[Gary Arthur]

I have just taken a brief look at the posts here on TO-SHIN DO and it seems that most seem to be very negative about it. One person even mentions that the TO-SHIN DO schools are closing down left right and centre. well my partner has just returned from the Florida Quest Centre in September and he said that he could not believe how busy it was. Maybe that person could give us some actual facts about which Quest Centres have closed.

As some one involved in Ninjutsu for nearly 19 years and having trained with Hatsumi, Tanemura and An Shu Hayes on more than one occasion, I feel, as do my students that An Shu Hayes continues, as he always has done to provide top quality martial arts instruction. Therefore on the 12th November 2004 My self and my partner Steve Auburn will be opening the very first UK Quest Centre.

I agree that the way An Shu Hayes teaches may not be for everyone, and neither is Genbukan, Bujinkan or any other organisation. We are all different and that what makes us interesting, but it seems to me that many of these post are put up here with the people making those posts having never trained with Stephen K Hayes, In TO-SHIN DO or seen the DVDs. Most of what seems to be on this site is rumour.

Check it out yourselves, you may be surprised.

 

[gmunoz]

Gary, you've really dun it now! Welcome to martialtalk. Perhaps you can help clear up most of the rumors out there. Again welcome.

 

[Cryozombie]

Maybe that person could give us some actual facts about which Quest Centres have closed.


Check it out yourselves, you may be surprised.

I don't know about left and right... but the Quest Center I attended briefly on RT 19 in... hmmm... I forget specifically which suburb of Chicago it was... but it was on Rt 19... is closed.

I dont think that answers your question, because it's only 1 school, but Its the only one I know of that closed. I also think, but this is just my opinion, that it closed because it was too close to the Quest Center that opened in Naperville.

Ive also stated in the past... My MAIN concern with the training there was the "Its all about the Benjamins" attitude... Requirements for a 1 year contract paid in ADVANCE, and as part of the dojo curriculum we were required to purchase and read books by hayes in order to rank test. (The problem I had with that, is that I had several of the books required, however, we were required to purchase them FROM the dojo.)

The whole thing seemed very $MONEY$ and I was really put off... Even when Hayes was out here doing a seminar over the Summer he was charging 30 bucks to get into the autograph session/book signing...

I was glad when I found the Bujinkan after that and discoverd Ninjutsu was NOT all moneymill.

 

[Enson]

gary arthur,

welcome to martial talk. will be looking forward to your post on modern ninjutsu. your advice and guidence should be a great help.

peace
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