O.K.. Gotta ask...Stephen K Hayes?

[loki09789]

Tom might remember a local student of Hayes (Dave Geary) who worked out with us when the commercial school was up and also came to some of Jerome's stuff. Dave trained regularly and made the monthly trip to work with SKH directly for 4-8 hours at a shot for years.

If he, as a student, is an example of what SKH can do himself as well as a product of his instruction then he is good, VERY good at his art and as a teacher. My problem with some of this 'public shadow warrior' business is that so much of Ninjutsu historically had more to do with intelligence/espionage/assasination/spec ops skills than simply using weapons and empty hand techniques. Either as a Hatsumi lineage inheritor or as the head of Quest, what other areas does SKH promote/teach? To specify, Ninja were mission oriented (small scale and large scale objectives) and that dictated the skills, tactics.... what modernizations or adaptations are in place as a response to the modern age vs. the traditional preservation goal of most commercial martial arts.

And yes, the days of sugar cookieing on the beach after coming in from the water was an adventure, but damn if the sand didn't get everywhere....and I do mean EVERYWHERE.

 

[Shogun]

I am just now starting SKH's courses, but I have followed his actions for a while. To answer the question, He does not water anything down. Mr. Hayes teaches classical and Modern Ninjutsu. As far as going to schools, then 6 weeks later the instructor is certified to teach Ninjutsu, this is total nonsense. SKH does certify for individual parts of ninjutsu. He can certify for, say, the Kihon Happo. or Kuji no kata of Kukishinden ryu hikenjutsu.


Kyle

 

[r.severe]

The 'earth', 'fire', 'water', etc.. are part of the Japanese culture.
Ninjutsu comes from the Japanese culture.

Hayes shihan might have had a great ideal with the godai... but... I don't believe from my experience that it is part of the Bujinkan arts as Hayes shihan used them...

But from his position.. he did a very good service in coming up with using these as a teacher aid and a foiundation of his methodology...

I hope this helps...

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Deaf]

I am just now starting SKH's courses, but I have followed his actions for a while. To answer the question, He does not water anything down. Mr. Hayes teaches classical and Modern Ninjutsu. As far as going to schools, then 6 weeks later the instructor is certified to teach Ninjutsu, this is total nonsense. SKH does certify for individual parts of ninjutsu. He can certify for, say, the Kihon Happo. or Kuji no kata of Kukishinden ryu hikenjutsu.
Kyle

Ummm...I think this is false dude. Hayes doesn't teach kihon happo or kuji or Kukishinden Ryu Hikenjutsu (unless he shows those things in a seminar). What he does teach at his schools is ToShinDo. Which by his own words is a "distilled" version of what he learned in the Bujinkan.

I can honestly verify that YES he did (I don't know if he still does) offer anyone from any style a chance to teach ToShinDo and YES he did rank them up to higher levels in a very short short short time period. In fact that is one of the reasons (and there are quite a few) as to why I quit training with him. The day total strangers from another style came in and attended 4 workshops (and still could not do the techniques) were promoted to a higher rank then myself and others within my group (we have been training for the better part of 2 years!). I saw this, questioned it and then decided that this was not the environment nor the affilation that I wanted to be training with. So I went my way, found a Bujinkan instructor and never look back.

I give the guy credit where he deserves...he did expose the art to the masses and he is skilled however that is about it in my opinion. I used to really respect the man but now...I can't really say anything positive about him from what I have seen in his actions and the quality of students that have walked out of his dojo.

~Deaf~

 

[Cryozombie]

I can honestly verify that YES he did (I don't know if he still does) offer anyone from any style a chance to teach ToShinDo and YES he did rank them up to higher levels in a very short short short time period.

~Deaf~

That is pretty much what my instructor who started out under Mr. Hayes said as well. Shogun, isn't your experience "studying under" Hayes from his quest videos?

 

[Frank Anford]

I give the guy credit where he deserves...he did expose the art to the masses and he is skilled however that is about it in my opinion. I used to really respect the man but now...I can't really say anything positive about him from what I have seen in his actions and the quality of students that have walked out of his dojo.

~Deaf~

bit confused here...
He exposed ninjutsu to the world (positive)
He is skilled (positive)
What are the negative "actions" you've witnessed deaf?
and
isn't Stephen Hayes a Buddhist Priest? Thats pretty positive!

 

[Cruentus]

bit confused here...
He exposed ninjutsu to the world (positive)
He is skilled (positive)
What are the negative "actions" you've witnessed deaf?
and
isn't Stephen Hayes a Buddhist Priest? Thats pretty positive!

The critics seem to feel that he jeprodized the integrity of the art for the purpose of comercialization. This is more of a criticism over his capitalistic ideal rather then his buddhist ones. :wink1:

 

[Shogun]

Ummm...I think this is false dude. Hayes doesn't teach kihon happo or kuji or Kukishinden Ryu Hikenjutsu (unless he shows those things in a seminar).

Actually, I am a Long Distance student, and one can study in individual parts of the art, thru video.

unless he shows those things in a seminar

isnt that what we were talking about? Taekwondo teachers attending his seminars? if not I am lost......

 

[Pyros]

In Bujinkan you need to be 5th dan to get a licence to teach on your own. Bussey never got that far! He was only a 1st dan and demanded that he should be given an instructor's licence. Nagato Sensei granted him 4th dan and said that go take the 5th dan test if you feel you are ready to become an instructor. Bussey left and never trained with them again (when asked about the reason for quitting Bujinkan, he claimed that the Bujinkan teachings conflicted with his religious beliefs). He came to the USA and marketed himself as the great ninja master king of combat.

Hayes got the instructor licence fair and square. And he didn't leave Bujinkan then to run for money. He studied there for years more, gaining even higher ranks. Then he thought he could make some changes, for example he brought defences against the "typical" attacks (like boxing type attacks and so on) sooner and consulted sports education experts for more effective, or at least more scientific methods of forming a learnable syllabus. At least according to his own word, he got the green light for doing this from Hatsumi Soke.

 

[Cryozombie]

Hayes got the instructor licence fair and square. And he didn't leave Bujinkan then to run for money. He studied there for years more, gaining even higher ranks. Then he thought he could make some changes, for example he brought defences against the "typical" attacks (like boxing type attacks and so on) sooner and consulted sports education experts for more effective, or at least more scientific methods of forming a learnable syllabus. At least according to his own word, he got the green light for doing this from Hatsumi Soke.

I don't think any of that is in question, I think the issue everyone is arguing about is if he allowed Dojo owners from other styles to teach ninjutsu after attending a few seminars or not. 2 people I know (Well, 1 i KNOW, and the other being Deaf) who were involved with Shadows of Iga claim this is in fact what he did... and at least one other instructor with him wont comment beyond that, but doesnt train there anymore. Prior to the SOI becoming "Quest" I only had an introductory course at a SOI school, which I did not sign up for because I was offput by the fact I had to sign a 1 year contract AND buy Mr. Hayes books from the dojo in order to achieve rank in the art. That wasn't for me. So I was not around to see it happen, but I see no reason that I would be lied to either.

 

[heretic888]

My problem with some of this 'public shadow warrior' business is that so much of Ninjutsu historically had more to do with intelligence/espionage/assasination/spec ops skills than simply using weapons and empty hand techniques. Either as a Hatsumi lineage inheritor or as the head of Quest, what other areas does SKH promote/teach? To specify, Ninja were mission oriented (small scale and large scale objectives) and that dictated the skills, tactics.... what modernizations or adaptations are in place as a response to the modern age vs. the traditional preservation goal of most commercial martial arts.

Heh. That's probably why its not called 'ninjutsu' anymore. :uhyeah:

 

[Deaf]

bit confused here...
He exposed ninjutsu to the world (positive)
He is skilled (positive)
What are the negative "actions" you've witnessed deaf?
and
isn't Stephen Hayes a Buddhist Priest? Thats pretty positive!

If you read my post again, you will see that I stated one negative action (that being of promoting someone from a different art up to a high rank and being able to teach ToShinDo after only a few workshops where as...people who have been training for several years within his dojo (who put in the sweat, blood and many hours) were totally shrugged off. It was all about the money. That is ONE negative action that I have witness.

The quality of the level of students that are being produced from his dojo is seriously lacking! Granted there are some that are ok or good but from what I have seen from several coming into my dojo to check things out. I'm not impressed and a bit angry that these people have been mislead or misguided and taught virtually NOTHING for well over 6 months to years! Especially at the prices that they charge!!! Now this is really MY OPINION and the subject can open up a huge can of worms so that is all I really have to say about that particular negative action.

And the other point that really really boils my blood...His art is TOSHINDO...NOT Bujinkan and I wished he and his students would get that through their heads! To have a person from ToShinDo come up to me (with a black belt) and act like he/she is my equivalent or superior AND claims affiliation in my art (I'm extremely proud of my art) is just WRONG. I don't see anyone from Jinekan nor Genbukan doing this. In fact these branches make no claim other than that the founders have trained in the Bujinkan in the past. Where as, I CONSTANTLY hear many ToShinDo people claim they are ranked and licensed with the Bujinkan which in fact they are not. "But...but...I was TOLD at the QuestCenter that I'm a member and recognized by the Bujikan etc." One word I have to say about that one...HORSES@#T!

Those are two actions I have given you and there are more that are a bit more personal which I don't care to discuss in the open.

Now like I said, I give Hayes credit where he deserves it but that is as far as I go.

~Deaf~

 

[Deaf]

Actually, I am a Long Distance student, and one can study in individual parts of the art, thru video.

isnt that what we were talking about? Taekwondo teachers attending his seminars? if not I am lost......

Well no, because Kihon Happo and the Kuji no kata of Kukishinden ryu hikenjutsu are NOT ToShinDo. They are Bujinkan. Now I believe Hayes has videos that cover that particular stuff but it is NOT part of the ToShinDo curriculum etc.

The TaeKwonDo teachers were actually attending a Quest Owners workshop which is geared specifically on teaching and learning the ToShinDo cirriculum. Once again nothing Bujinkan related.

I think your main confusion is thinking ToShinDo is Bujinkan etc. It isn't. It is a totally different animal regardless of what Hayes claims.

~Deaf~

 

[Jay Bell]

Correction....Steve Hayes is still part of Bujinkan and trains actively under Hatsumi sensei.

The following statement is incorrect:

I CONSTANTLY hear many ToShinDo people claim they are ranked and licensed with the Bujinkan which in fact they are not.

In the Hayes umbrella, you can train in Bujinkan and Toshindo....many of his students, local and distant are ranked in Bujinkan.

 

[stauburn]

I think Hayes deserves alot of credit and respect for what he has done for ninjitsu in North America. There isn't a person here who wasn't a Hayes junkie if they started out training in the 80's and we all have had an instructor ( or themselves) that grew out a Hayes beard and moustache...

All of us here has owned, borrowed or stolen and Hayes book at some time and ran around around the park kicking trees and practicing ukemi. I have never met the man and don't follow his present program of teaching, but I would jump at a chance to attend a class? seminar of his because I know I would learn more than I have from some dedicated bujinkan instructors that I have met in the past.

People always seem to be talking about what he teaches , doesn't teach and that he is out to make money ..my answer to that is who cares...if something out there works for you and you like it so be it. You can study Genbukan, Bujinjikan, ToSHin DO or whatever at the end of the day all that matters is if you can save your own *** if need be.

As many people before me has said....Stop talking & train...

 

[Shogun]

Ditto.

I have one more question. If the Hayes curriculum is watered down, and/or lacking depth, (claims about unskilled students, and all) then why do I have to study 2 beginning kata for 5-9 months?

just a thought.......

 

[Cryozombie]

Ditto.

I have one more question. If the Hayes curriculum is watered down, and/or lacking depth, (claims about unskilled students, and all) then why do I have to study 2 beginning kata for 5-9 months?

just a thought.......

"Kata" in ninjutsu is a movement Idea. You should perfect those movement ideas. I wonder, however, why you only have 2...

 

[Cryozombie]

As many people before me has said....Stop talking & train...

But... I'm sitting at my desk at work, I cannot train! :boing2:

And besides, maybe my time on MT is training!

 

[Shogun]

"Kata" in ninjutsu is a movement Idea. You should perfect those movement ideas. I wonder, however, why you only have 2......

I am ware of that. I was refering to the talk of unskilled students. if someone practices 2 kata for 6 months at a time, and still does'nt have the skills, then, you know..... maybe they should try something else....like sitting. It is just that I cant understand why people would say someone is unskilled if they must spend this long on each kata. I am not complaining....but others seem to be.

I purchase the monthly lesson, and each one has 2-4 kata on it. I dont use it only as a source of MA though. I also study at the Seattle Shinobu dojo (bujinkan) occasionally.

 

[Deaf]

Correction....Steve Hayes is still part of Bujinkan and trains actively under Hatsumi sensei.

The following statement is incorrect:

Never said that Hayes wasn't still part of Bujinkan nor that he wasn't actively training with Hatsumi Sensei. In fact I never even tried to deny any of that. All I stated was that Toshindo is Toshindo and not Bujinkan!

In the Hayes umbrella, you can train in Bujinkan and Toshindo....many of his students, local and distant are ranked in Bujinkan.

No the statement is correct. The people who are strictly in Toshindo (NOT training in the bujinkan as well) are not ranked in Bujinkan. I know of several people who do in fact train in both Toshindo and Bujinkan, so with these people I have no problems. I just have problems with the Toshindo only people thinking they are part of the Bujinkan.

The entire argument I am stating is that Toshindo is Toshindo and not Bujinkan.

As I have state before, I give Hayes credit for many of his past accomplishments and many of us would probably have not had the opportunity to train within the Bujinkan if it wasn't for him. Just like any other human being...he has his pros and cons.

~Deaf~