Stephen K. Hayes
- Thread starter Rob Broad
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Deaf
Green Belt
Well it isn't a matter of whether or not you like the guy or not. The question at the beginning of this thread simply asked what is Hayes in regards to modern day ninjutsu. Well my opinion is nothing. He is pretty much wrapped up in his own hybrid called ToShinDo with it's own Shihans etc.
The fact of the matter is that Hatsumi has asked that people who train with SKH not be allowed to train in the Bujinkan and vice versa. Simply because Hayes has not been training with him for quite some time and because of this, Hayes has missed a LOT of what he has been teaching. Sounds pretty simple to me and understandable.
Think of it like this. You have a two doctors both cardiologists and belonging to the AMA. Now the AMA requires these doctors to attend training to keep their skills up to date etc. Now doctor #1 has decided to take his skills and market them by opening up his own clinic, teach seminars to the masses and only attends a couple of training sessions very few years. Doctor #2 has opened up his own clinic as well, teach seminars however he goes to every training session and is continually working on his skills as well. Guess what...doctor #1 is banned by the AMA because his knowledge has become outdated. His skill may still be really good and you may love the dear guy but doctor #2 has the most recent knowledge and understanding about the new technologies.
Now taking that in to mind...can you really blame Hatsumi Sensei for banning learning from Hayes or any other people who have not been training consistently with Hatsumi Sensei from the bujinkan?
I do NOT consider this an ego thing as R. Severe seems to suggest. I consider it just common sense on keeping the art alive and being taught with the correct and up to date information.
FWIW,
Michael
The fact of the matter is that Hatsumi has asked that people who train with SKH not be allowed to train in the Bujinkan and vice versa. Simply because Hayes has not been training with him for quite some time and because of this, Hayes has missed a LOT of what he has been teaching. Sounds pretty simple to me and understandable.
Think of it like this. You have a two doctors both cardiologists and belonging to the AMA. Now the AMA requires these doctors to attend training to keep their skills up to date etc. Now doctor #1 has decided to take his skills and market them by opening up his own clinic, teach seminars to the masses and only attends a couple of training sessions very few years. Doctor #2 has opened up his own clinic as well, teach seminars however he goes to every training session and is continually working on his skills as well. Guess what...doctor #1 is banned by the AMA because his knowledge has become outdated. His skill may still be really good and you may love the dear guy but doctor #2 has the most recent knowledge and understanding about the new technologies.
Now taking that in to mind...can you really blame Hatsumi Sensei for banning learning from Hayes or any other people who have not been training consistently with Hatsumi Sensei from the bujinkan?
I do NOT consider this an ego thing as R. Severe seems to suggest. I consider it just common sense on keeping the art alive and being taught with the correct and up to date information.
FWIW,
Michael
r.severe
Blue Belt
The fact of the matter is that Hatsumi has asked that people who train with SKH not be allowed to train in the Bujinkan and vice versa. Simply because Hayes has not been training with him for quite some time and because of this, Hayes has missed a LOT of what he has been teaching. Sounds pretty simple to me and understandable.
Michael, if that is true about Hayes shihan not training with Hatsumi sensei for a few years then what about Hatsumi sensei not training with Takamatsu sensei for well over 20 years?
Take some time to ponder that.....
This 'deal' with Bujinkan people saying if you haven't trained with Hatsumi sensei is totally out of line and even if Hatsumi sensei has said this this is totally silly..
The time students do not train with their teachers, if they have a great deal of experiece already, in my opinion makes them even better human beings as well as martial students...
You really cannot refine your skills if your head is stuck in the teachers Dojo every week.. This is really a fact of any skills.. being football to tea..
ralph severe, kamiyama
Michael, if that is true about Hayes shihan not training with Hatsumi sensei for a few years then what about Hatsumi sensei not training with Takamatsu sensei for well over 20 years?
Take some time to ponder that.....
This 'deal' with Bujinkan people saying if you haven't trained with Hatsumi sensei is totally out of line and even if Hatsumi sensei has said this this is totally silly..
The time students do not train with their teachers, if they have a great deal of experiece already, in my opinion makes them even better human beings as well as martial students...
You really cannot refine your skills if your head is stuck in the teachers Dojo every week.. This is really a fact of any skills.. being football to tea..
ralph severe, kamiyama
heretic888
Senior Master
An artificial argument, considering Takamatsu is quite dead.
Correct and up to date. Well, I guess what everyone has said regarding the ever-evolving Bujinkan is true. If this is true then Hatsumi must have been teaching something else in his early days. Others have said he is teaching as Takamatsu taught him. How can that be so if it is still needing to be "updated?" Pretty interesting. If Bujinkan can get their story straight then perhaps we can really get something resolved here...Deaf said:
Deaf
Green Belt
gmunoz said:
Dude...taijutsu is ever evolving thus changing all the time. Why do you think it has survived as long as it has!?
What I meant by the "updated material" is the more advanced stuff that Hatsumi Sensei is teaching now. In his earlier days, Hatsumi Sensei was teaching very simple stuff compared to what he is teaching now (from what I have gathered from various higher ranking students) thus what your dearly beloved SKH knew 10 or 20 years ago barely scratches the surface of what Hatsumi Sensei was/is teaching. So if you take that into account, what SKH is simply teaching is over 10 or 20 years behind what is currently being taught and he would probably be totally lost if he attended classes now or he may not be...!? However this is really a moot point since SKH is teaching ToShinDo now. Why worry about it! Just do what you want and keep training with what makes you happy Just be aware that what you are learning is what SKH learned quite a few years ago and had refined to his liking and is not Bujinkan.
~Deaf~
heretic888 said:
And it's my understanding, please correct me if I am wrong...
Hatsumi Sensei continued to go and learn from Takamatsu even AFTER Takamatsu turned "ownership" of the arts over to Hatsumi.
The big logical failure in your Arguemnet Ralph, is this...
Hatsumi continues to change, evolve and expand his teachings. Since Takamatsu is dead, he has not made any changes/insights/advancements to the art, therefore aruging that Hatsumi is "behind in his training" because he does not train with Takamatsu is, at best, stupid.
gmunoz said:
What part of the story is "not straight" Gmunoz?
The techniques are the same-same as they have always been... but the methods for using them, the applications they are applied against, the types of body movements used to emply them... those have been modified, refined, etc...
For an art to be effective, IMHO, that HAS to happen. The world, weapons, fighting techniques, society... those things are not static. Learning "An attacker will come at you with their right foot forward and a right hand attack only" because tradition teaches that is a truism based on society 300+ years ago is a stupid way to train today... If you look at how the 'Kan trains... The "Basic 8" in its early years, are still taught today. The difference is, all the Kihon Happo movements were taught big and fancy back at the beginning, and now are taught smaller, less movement, more effective. The big movements were taught to learn the techniques, the small ones to learn to apply the techniques. Same same, but different.
However you look at this, the obvious truth is:
Whatever Mr. Hayes teaches now in his ToShinDo, is HIS interpretation of the old teachings of the Bujinkan, they are not the same things being taught in the Bujinkan today. I wont argue here which is better/worse/or if they are equal in effectivness... its simply a different art that comes from the same roots. IF you think Mr. Hayes is teaching QUEST exactly the same as he taught Shadows of Iga, fine... if not, as a Bujinkan guy, lemme throw your argument back at you a second...
"People say that Hayes is teaching the same thing he learned in the Bujinkan. How can that be so if it is still being "updated?" Pretty interesting. If Toshindo can get their story straight then perhaps we can really get something resolved here..."
heretic888
Senior Master
That's what I've been told and/or read, as well. Apparently, Takamatsu-soke gave Hatsumi the titles to the various ryuha very early in because he possessed the proper "spirit". Hatsumi continued to train with Takamatsu many, many years beyond that point.
Of course, I'm sure one of the Big Guys can come by and tell us for sure any time now.
fwiw... i wouldn't call anyone stupid here but thats just me.
i think what people are trying to say is that hatusmi took what he was taught and enhanced it to make it practicle for today. what was once togakure ryu he changed to bujinkan and made it practicle ninjutsu. so in a sense... yes it should evolve and get better.
the same with hayes he took what he was taught and made it better for him. so hatsumi couldn't train with toshindo or he would be really lost because its hayes's toshindo.
so in a sense unless you learned the orginal togakure ryu you were/are not learning real ninjutsu. so now that hatsumi has changed it, it no longer can be called ninjutsu but bujinkan... just like hayes can no longer call it ninjutsu but toshindo.
i'm not trying to down or trash anyone all i'm saying is that hatsumi took a concept and made it better for him. so did hayes. the only thing is hayes gets bashed for it while hatsumi is praised. who is right? depends on who you ask. i believe there is a whole lot of bias in here so it just depends on how many of one group/style/class/school we have in here. if there are more buji then hatsumi will be right and everyone else wrong... if toshindo then hayes will remain correct. :mp5: :jedi1:
again thats my opinion
i think what people are trying to say is that hatusmi took what he was taught and enhanced it to make it practicle for today. what was once togakure ryu he changed to bujinkan and made it practicle ninjutsu. so in a sense... yes it should evolve and get better.
the same with hayes he took what he was taught and made it better for him. so hatsumi couldn't train with toshindo or he would be really lost because its hayes's toshindo.
so in a sense unless you learned the orginal togakure ryu you were/are not learning real ninjutsu. so now that hatsumi has changed it, it no longer can be called ninjutsu but bujinkan... just like hayes can no longer call it ninjutsu but toshindo.
i'm not trying to down or trash anyone all i'm saying is that hatsumi took a concept and made it better for him. so did hayes. the only thing is hayes gets bashed for it while hatsumi is praised. who is right? depends on who you ask. i believe there is a whole lot of bias in here so it just depends on how many of one group/style/class/school we have in here. if there are more buji then hatsumi will be right and everyone else wrong... if toshindo then hayes will remain correct. :mp5: :jedi1:
again thats my opinion
Enson,
I think you're looking at the "changing" of Hatsumi sensei's teaching different from how it happens. Example...you can take a very low level waza in a ryu and re-learn it countless times. As your development, understanding and skills change, so does the waza itself. Applying high-level methods and theories to a low level waza "changes" it...but it's still the same.
I think you're looking at the "changing" of Hatsumi sensei's teaching different from how it happens. Example...you can take a very low level waza in a ryu and re-learn it countless times. As your development, understanding and skills change, so does the waza itself. Applying high-level methods and theories to a low level waza "changes" it...but it's still the same.
i understand what your saying and that is a good example. the only thing is i believe some think that hayes just got togakure and just one day decided to change it and call it something else... if he did well i don't know. i think it evolved so much that he decided to call it something else. i think gmunoz can give more info on this. being he is a toshindo practicioner. i think i read something like that on his site. i don't remember to well.Jay Bell said:
peace
T
tmanifold
Guest
So basically you are saying ToShinDo and Budo TaiJutsu are not the same. It's been eight pages over that? Let me be the first to say, "thanks Tips". As for not training with the other, why? And who is Hatsumi to say who a student can and can not train with? If I had BB in ToShindo, for example, and I wanted to train with the booj whats stopping me? If I go to the Booj as a white belt, I don't even see the slightest problem. Now thinking that a BB in TSD means a BB the Booj or vice verse could cause a problem. It would be like a black belt in Shotokan starting to train at another Karate dojo and wearing his black belt. It is just plain ego.
Before you put your foot down over something you evidently have very little understanding about, Hatsumi sensei is the Soke. What he says goes. If you don't like it, don't study with the Bujinkan.
The idea here is that former students are teaching in a manner that is much different from what he is trying to convey in his students. That difference can cause issues with understanding and development under his umbrella.
The idea here is that former students are teaching in a manner that is much different from what he is trying to convey in his students. That difference can cause issues with understanding and development under his umbrella.
Response from Hayes sensei to the following inquiry:
"I am very interested to hear the specific differences between what Hatsumi-sensei taught to Mr. Hayes as the "ninja arts" and what is being taught now."
Here are just a few thoughts. Of course, there are way too many to include in a forum like this.
There was heavy emphasis on what 16th Century aggressors would throw at a defender. These attacks were based on the ways people moved, the way they dressed, and the environmental conditions of those days. (We never went into anything like defending against boxer jabs, wrestler takedowns, kick boxer round kicks, and small group verbal-hassle-and-test surprise muggings because those were not things that were threats in the 1500s.)
Every technique ended with the aggressor on the ground maimed to the point of total immobilization, and more often than not, dead or dying. (No legal system to protect or prosecute defenders in those days...)
Many of the kamae and techniques were performed in odd ways designed to keep the aggressor from seeing the face of the defender.
Many of the techniques involved unusual hidden weapons that would be impossible, impractical, and illegal today for anyone but some sort of counter-intelligence agent. (How to tear the face off with a circular swipe of the shuko, etc) And if you are a counter-intelligence agent today, modern technological developments far outshine the capabilities of these crude 500 year old iron, bamboo, and string implements.
There were all sorts of methods demonstrated for escaping burning buildings with tatami floors and cedar plank ceilings, walking through Japanese gardens designed to detect intruders, etc.
The biggest difference was the ninja mind set. Hatsumi Sensei told me in 1982 that he did not believe many people could fully grasp the ninja way of thinking and seeing ("Only 2 or 3 in a generation, if that many..." were his words). I disagreed with him strongly at the time, even argued with him about it (politely, of course). Throughout the 1980s I tried to teach the ninjutsu that I had learned from him in Japan in the 1970s, even though it had been "retired" in Japanese dojo.
By the time I got to the 1990s, I had come to understand totally what he was trying to tell me. I completely agree with Hatsumi Sensei's views on the inadvisability of teaching authentic ninjutsu at this point. (Yes, I am aware that there are people teaching Bujinkan taijutsu and calling it ninjutsu, but I doubt the authenticity of their methods as real ninjutsu if they did not spend a lot of time with Hatsumi Sensei in the 1970s or me in the 1980s) When I started my school in 1996, I moved ninjutsu to the background and offered a modern adaptation that was much more appropriate for the times.
"I am very interested to hear the specific differences between what Hatsumi-sensei taught to Mr. Hayes as the "ninja arts" and what is being taught now."
Here are just a few thoughts. Of course, there are way too many to include in a forum like this.
There was heavy emphasis on what 16th Century aggressors would throw at a defender. These attacks were based on the ways people moved, the way they dressed, and the environmental conditions of those days. (We never went into anything like defending against boxer jabs, wrestler takedowns, kick boxer round kicks, and small group verbal-hassle-and-test surprise muggings because those were not things that were threats in the 1500s.)
Every technique ended with the aggressor on the ground maimed to the point of total immobilization, and more often than not, dead or dying. (No legal system to protect or prosecute defenders in those days...)
Many of the kamae and techniques were performed in odd ways designed to keep the aggressor from seeing the face of the defender.
Many of the techniques involved unusual hidden weapons that would be impossible, impractical, and illegal today for anyone but some sort of counter-intelligence agent. (How to tear the face off with a circular swipe of the shuko, etc) And if you are a counter-intelligence agent today, modern technological developments far outshine the capabilities of these crude 500 year old iron, bamboo, and string implements.
There were all sorts of methods demonstrated for escaping burning buildings with tatami floors and cedar plank ceilings, walking through Japanese gardens designed to detect intruders, etc.
The biggest difference was the ninja mind set. Hatsumi Sensei told me in 1982 that he did not believe many people could fully grasp the ninja way of thinking and seeing ("Only 2 or 3 in a generation, if that many..." were his words). I disagreed with him strongly at the time, even argued with him about it (politely, of course). Throughout the 1980s I tried to teach the ninjutsu that I had learned from him in Japan in the 1970s, even though it had been "retired" in Japanese dojo.
By the time I got to the 1990s, I had come to understand totally what he was trying to tell me. I completely agree with Hatsumi Sensei's views on the inadvisability of teaching authentic ninjutsu at this point. (Yes, I am aware that there are people teaching Bujinkan taijutsu and calling it ninjutsu, but I doubt the authenticity of their methods as real ninjutsu if they did not spend a lot of time with Hatsumi Sensei in the 1970s or me in the 1980s) When I started my school in 1996, I moved ninjutsu to the background and offered a modern adaptation that was much more appropriate for the times.
- Stephen K. Hayes
gmunoz said:
Gmunoz, thanks for the post.
It does, amongst other things, emphasize that if Mr. Hayes feels that way now, that he is indeed out of touch with the way many things are currently taught in the bujinkan. (at least in the limited scope of my training). We do indeed train against boxer jabs, wrestler takedowns, kick boxer round kicks, etc... if he wasnt taught that back then, and still believes it is not being taught... he is missing some of the current Bujinkan. I think it was great he could recognize that was lacking... I dont neccessarily believe he needed to leave the Bujinkan over it... but he felt confident in doing his own thing.
Mr Hayes said:
This is somthing I am totaly ignorant of... so I am asking... What of students of other students of Hatsumi durring that same time period? Is Hayes implying with that comment he is the only one Hatsumi Sensei taught authentic ninjutsu to that actually taught it to others? if so, is that actually accurate?
Enson said:
I didn't call anyone stupid... I called a particular notion stupid. It wouldnt matter who said it.
i understand now that i went back and read what you said. it could have been taken that way though.Technopunk said:
gmunoz thanks for that post. it cleared up alot of things for me.
technopunk, well i guess it would be his original students that were taught authentic ninjutsu per what hayes says.
r.severe
Blue Belt
These are some really great points... on the subject..
Hatsumi sensei is soke.. but what is the big deal?
He controls his Bujinkan Dojo with request like don't train with so and so..
This is like saying don't look outside my bible or you're going to he((...
What can a man fear the most?
Himself?
"Hatsumi continues to change, evolve and expand his teachings. Since Takamatsu is dead, he has not made any changes/insights/advancements to the art, therefore aruging that Hatsumi is "behind in his training" because he does not train with Takamatsu is, at best, stupid."
One point is I have not been called stupid in many years..
The point of Hatsumi sensei making changes is more or less like saying Tanemura sensei changing, Manaka sensei, Ralph Severe, Steve Hayes, etc.. and there is a problem wuth their changing, expanding technique and growing..?
I do not see any 'stupid' in these points.
Please point them out if you can.
I never said Hatsumi sensei was behind in anything.. now did I?
I feel that's a twisted and a simple agenda to mislead what I said.
The point being, Takamatsu sensei is dead.. true..
So the point being.. Hatsumi sensei has no teacher..
So how has he grown and others haven't grown outside their teachers supervision and how are the ones who do their own thing any different from Hatsumi sensei?
Hatsumi sensei is no different from any other man alive..
We all change..
We all grow..
We all expand..
My point is the more you follow Hatsumi sensei the more you cannot experience combative ryuha waza....
ralph severe, kamiyama
Hatsumi sensei is soke.. but what is the big deal?
He controls his Bujinkan Dojo with request like don't train with so and so..
This is like saying don't look outside my bible or you're going to he((...
What can a man fear the most?
Himself?
"Hatsumi continues to change, evolve and expand his teachings. Since Takamatsu is dead, he has not made any changes/insights/advancements to the art, therefore aruging that Hatsumi is "behind in his training" because he does not train with Takamatsu is, at best, stupid."
One point is I have not been called stupid in many years..
The point of Hatsumi sensei making changes is more or less like saying Tanemura sensei changing, Manaka sensei, Ralph Severe, Steve Hayes, etc.. and there is a problem wuth their changing, expanding technique and growing..?
I do not see any 'stupid' in these points.
Please point them out if you can.
I never said Hatsumi sensei was behind in anything.. now did I?
I feel that's a twisted and a simple agenda to mislead what I said.
The point being, Takamatsu sensei is dead.. true..
So the point being.. Hatsumi sensei has no teacher..
So how has he grown and others haven't grown outside their teachers supervision and how are the ones who do their own thing any different from Hatsumi sensei?
Hatsumi sensei is no different from any other man alive..
We all change..
We all grow..
We all expand..
My point is the more you follow Hatsumi sensei the more you cannot experience combative ryuha waza....
ralph severe, kamiyama
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