Sports relation to Self Defence.

[MJS]

Karate was formed for the purpose of self defence, nothing else. It wasn't for sport, it wasn't to get you fit, it wasn't for gaining any spiritual enlightenment, It was to fight against 'ruffians and scoundrels'. It had, in fact still does have what you need in the katas. However these days people have taken karate and 'modified' it, beautified it, changed it and gelded it but it's still there the old stuff and it still works if anyone chooses to actually train in karate as it should be done. We have people who are saying that side side products of karate is self defence, the purpose is to get fit or to become more spiritual ( I wonder if they have read Motobu's comments "It is necessary to drink alcohol and pursue other fun human activities. The art of someone who is too serious has no “flavour" )
It's been turned into a sport and a childcare activity, now everyone arguing about whether a martial art can be self defence or whether it's something different. Karate done as the founders intended is self defence, nothing else, pure self defence. Modern thoughts make things difficult and clouded, western reverence of estern 'mysticism' has turned martial arts into something it was never meant to be. Oh how people complicate things. The philosophy behind karate was simple,' you attack me, I'll walk away and you won't'. There was no 'respect' thing going on, no tenets of behaviour no spirituality, just self defence, everything else came form outside, peoples, personal beliefs, religions etc and was inserted into karate to make it this 'art' thing we have now. Rather sad in my opinion but than goodness there's enough around who can see the purpose of karate, what it's for and can use it as a very good self defence system.


The beaurty of MMA is that it is what it says it is on the tin, martial arts, a great deal of techniuws are also in the katas, if people stop useing them as dances and actually looked at whats in there they'd not need anything else.

What a great post!! You hit the nail on the head with what you said here, and this has always been, and always will be, one of my biggest pet peeves in the martial arts today...the fact that so much has been watered down and changed. Some dont want to admit it, and I can't help but refer back to the thread I started a while back, about what happened to the 'martial' in martial arts, but this is what they were all about...fighting. You gain what I consider to be the 'side benefits' of training, but IMO, the main goal is learning to fight. Pretty sad when you go to a tournament and you have seperate kata divisions...traditional and modified. I wonder if the masters of old, are rolling in their graves, at the sight of the cartwheels and assorted gymnastics routines that you see today. I probably would end up getting my *** kicked by someone doing a cartwheel, because I'd be laughing so damn hard, it'd be too difficult to fight.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

What a great post!! You hit the nail on the head with what you said here, and this has always been, and always will be, one of my biggest pet peeves in the martial arts today...the fact that so much has been watered down and changed. Some dont want to admit it, and I can't help but refer back to the thread I started a while back, about what happened to the 'martial' in martial arts, but this is what they were all about...fighting. You gain what I consider to be the 'side benefits' of training, but IMO, the main goal is learning to fight. Pretty sad when you go to a tournament and you have seperate kata divisions...traditional and modified. I wonder if the masters of old, are rolling in their graves, at the sight of the cartwheels and assorted gymnastics routines that you see today. I probably would end up getting my *** kicked by someone doing a cartwheel, because I'd be laughing so damn hard, it'd be too difficult to fight.

could it be that its watered down these days because the need to be able to fight is no longer as important in current day society. Back when these arts originated there were many lawless societies, someone could be killed on the street and no one would care, there was rape and pilleginging, people's farms had to be protected from outlaws etc etc, basically you had to know how to fight whether you liked it or not. These days it is very easy to go through your whole life without ever having to defend yourself as long as you are half sensible. I can understand that there are certain occupations where self defence is a must but we no longer have gangs of outlaws coming into our homes at night and killing us in our sleep (at least not where I live anyway). These are the reasons its been watered down in my opinion, because if only people who need to know how to defend themselves did karate then there would be some very empty dojos around. I think its more that many clubs have 'moved with the times'. Dont get me wrong, I dont agree with it, I train at a club that is very traditional in its teachings and is very old school but I can accept that there are people out there who want to know some basic self defence in case the situation ever arises but they dont want to do some hard core traditional karate class and so many clubs have just provided a facility where people can do this. There are still many 'hardcore' clubs around and if thats what people want its still available, its just not for everyone I guess.

 

[teekin]

What a great post!! You hit the nail on the head with what you said here, and this has always been, and always will be, one of my biggest pet peeves in the martial arts today...the fact that so much has been watered down and changed. Some dont want to admit it, and I can't help but refer back to the thread I started a while back, about what happened to the 'martial' in martial arts, but this is what they were all about...fighting. You gain what I consider to be the 'side benefits' of training, but IMO, the main goal is learning to fight. Pretty sad when you go to a tournament and you have seperate kata divisions...traditional and modified. I wonder if the masters of old, are rolling in their graves, at the sight of the cartwheels and assorted gymnastics routines that you see today. I probably would end up getting my *** kicked by someone doing a cartwheel, because I'd be laughing so damn hard, it'd be too difficult to fight.

Cartwheels? In a Karate Kata? Really? Why? was there a point?

Lori

 

[Tez3]

What a great post!! You hit the nail on the head with what you said here, and this has always been, and always will be, one of my biggest pet peeves in the martial arts today...the fact that so much has been watered down and changed. Some dont want to admit it, and I can't help but refer back to the thread I started a while back, about what happened to the 'martial' in martial arts, but this is what they were all about...fighting. You gain what I consider to be the 'side benefits' of training, but IMO, the main goal is learning to fight. Pretty sad when you go to a tournament and you have seperate kata divisions...traditional and modified. I wonder if the masters of old, are rolling in their graves, at the sight of the cartwheels and assorted gymnastics routines that you see today. I probably would end up getting my *** kicked by someone doing a cartwheel, because I'd be laughing so damn hard, it'd be too difficult to fight.

Thank you! You may have guessed but I've been training with Iain Abernethy at the weekend which always renews my zeal about how karate should be done! We were doing the Bunkai for Naihanchi, the one that has everything you need to fight in it....including ear biting! Also in there are takedowns we use in MMA, brilliant.

It's been watered down less I believe for the lack of need to defend yourself more for the greed of taking in loads of money. You can train karate as a self defence system and still get all the benefits people claim, self confidence, fitness etc but you have to train hard, these days people simply don't want to do that. They want belts, competitions, pointless sparring and they want it easy. When people say they train traditionally what do they mean? Loads of bowing,nice clean ironed uniforms, calling the instructors sensei, tenets on the wall? or do they learn to fight? Not sparring against other martial artists, fun though that is, but really learning to fight.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Thank you! You may have guessed but I've been training with Iain Abernethy at the weekend which always renews my zeal about how karate should be done! We were doing the Bunkai for Naihanchi, the one that has everything you need to fight in it....including ear biting! Also in there are takedowns we use in MMA, brilliant.

It's been watered down less I believe for the lack of need to defend yourself more for the greed of taking in loads of money. You can train karate as a self defence system and still get all the benefits people claim, self confidence, fitness etc but you have to train hard, these days people simply don't want to do that. They want belts, competitions, pointless sparring and they want it easy. When people say they train traditionally what do they mean? Loads of bowing,nice clean ironed uniforms, calling the instructors sensei, tenets on the wall? or do they learn to fight? Not sparring against other martial artists, fun though that is, but really learning to fight.

when I say I train traditionally I mean we train hard, we walk out out of the dojang sore and out of breath, we spar hard and if you are not up to speed you dont grade. We train techs that may not look pretty but they work. Yes, we have the other traditions such as bowing , clean ironed uniforms etc (as you stated above), tenants etc and I have no problems with that. The way I see it people have a choice, if they want hard realistic training like I do then there are tonnes of clubs around that offer that. For others who prefer a 'lighter' workout (from a martial perspective) and have other goals then there are also lots of clubs that cater for their needs. Its no different to purchasing a car, a meal or a house, there are different models to suit different people's needs and I personally dont have a problem with that. I dont really understand the theory that martial arts have been watered down to make more money. I know of several clubs that train very hard, old school style where the owners have become quite wealthy out of running their club. There are a lot of people out there who want to train hard so there is certainly a market out there to cater for those people. The club I train at has over 4000 members and the hard realistic training has only contributed to those numbers.

 

[Tez3]

when I say I train traditionally I mean we train hard, we walk out out of the dojang sore and out of breath, we spar hard and if you are not up to speed you dont grade. We train techs that may not look pretty but they work. Yes, we have the other traditions such as bowing , clean ironed uniforms etc (as you stated above), tenants etc and I have no problems with that. The way I see it people have a choice, if they want hard realistic training like I do then there are tonnes of clubs around that offer that. For others who prefer a 'lighter' workout (from a martial perspective) and have other goals then there are also lots of clubs that cater for their needs. Its no different to purchasing a car, a meal or a house, there are different models to suit different people's needs and I personally dont have a problem with that. I dont really understand the theory that martial arts have been watered down to make more money. I know of several clubs that train very hard, old school style where the owners have become quite wealthy out of running their club. There are a lot of people out there who want to train hard so there is certainly a market out there to cater for those people. The club I train at has over 4000 members and the hard realistic training has only contributed to those numbers.

the thing is though karate wasn't intended to be a one size fits all model, it wasn't intended to cater for different needs, it was desinged with one purpose in mind, to be able to defend yourself against the bad guys. Nothing less and nothing more. To train traditionally one one have to do that also, no gradings etc.
You ionly have to look at many places to see where it's been watered down to make money and I'm not taking this thread down the route of teaching tiny children again, black belt clubs, sparring clubs, patches, special uniforms, gymnastic katas etc.

Training until you are out of breath doesn't mean you are training correctly, you can do that in a gym frankly. Those that say they are old school? Do they just do one kata for nine years? If not they aren't 'old school' they just like hitting each other, old school is a daft expression anyway, none of us were around in the 1800s so how can people say they train old school? Going into Bunkai and immersing yourself in their depth, that's 'old school', training those techniques are 'old school'. To be truly 'old school' they have to train Jissen not the fancy sparring stuff, more Motubu less Funakoshi I'm afraid. Reading Motubu will also shove the tenets thing out of the window as well.
We don't have thousands we have a few, don't make any money as we don't try to, we just teach people to fight.

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hi Gaius,



I completely agree about the term self defence there. To me it implies a need for there to be an attacker, which is just too close to a victim mentality, as well as being too passive in many cases.

However, to go so far as to think in terms of counter assault, then I think you may be going to far the other way. My personal term is self protection, which is defensive, evasive, and offensive, simply taking the best approach as the situation dictates. There's just a bit too much "naked aggression", "explosive violence", and so on here for this to come across as maturely balanced. Certainly offensive tactics form a part (against a group, or an escalating threat they are ideal), but to have it as your main approach is just as limited as having defensive actions only as your main approach.

Most people we get in front of us these days are not people who have had to fight much if at all in their life, most are very good people who do not have exp with real life and limb violence, most modern people do not have a good mindset for violence.

I am not telling them to strike first allways (but striking first can be a good idea) but when you are assulted, you dont have time to play mindgames and tel yourself "I am going to control the situation" by that time you'll be bleeding or worse. You go in for the kill, once you have them there, then you show restraint, then you can give mercy (and if your in a Nation of Laws, you have to stop short of maiming or killing him unless he is still activly a threat.

Fighting is a hard subject, it is martial, of Mars and Mars has no use for the softer sides of life, although Mars can protect those things.

Armies that want to win train their troops to be aggressive, someone sticking a gun to your head on the street just did an act of personal warfare, handle him in kind.

Someone shooting off their mouth, but no real threat, then by all means walk away from it.

You can seperate martial arts from violent behaiviour but you weaken the arts and more importantly the Artist ability to perform in combat.

Martial arts are a GRRRRRR type of subject, yes the deeper elementsd bring much peace and calm but that is part of the longer ride and people at day 1 have no need or use for that when they came to learn to fight, if they stay then it's appropriate (and daresay needed.)

Assult, Close enter kill, are a part of it and IMO needed elements of one's first few years of martial training.

Yes years into it and you can have a differnt mindset, my last fight showed that as I controlled him and hurt him just enough whereas years ago I would have kept going untill he either ran, begged, went out or was broken up enough to not be a threat.

Matruaty is central to allowing people to train aggressivly and not make a Thug Tank but I also see many so called SD Instructors who hide behined "Maturaty" and "restraint" because they would not know real violence if it came up and tire ironed them. Fighting is ****** and low, you need to get ****** and low, you need to become Mad Dog Mean unless you have attainded a more open, combative mindset. Civility allrady was a non factor, time to lend the eye a "Terrible Aspect" as Shakspear said about war.

 

[MJS]

could it be that its watered down these days because the need to be able to fight is no longer as important in current day society. Back when these arts originated there were many lawless societies, someone could be killed on the street and no one would care, there was rape and pilleginging, people's farms had to be protected from outlaws etc etc, basically you had to know how to fight whether you liked it or not. These days it is very easy to go through your whole life without ever having to defend yourself as long as you are half sensible. I can understand that there are certain occupations where self defence is a must but we no longer have gangs of outlaws coming into our homes at night and killing us in our sleep (at least not where I live anyway). These are the reasons its been watered down in my opinion, because if only people who need to know how to defend themselves did karate then there would be some very empty dojos around. I think its more that many clubs have 'moved with the times'. Dont get me wrong, I dont agree with it, I train at a club that is very traditional in its teachings and is very old school but I can accept that there are people out there who want to know some basic self defence in case the situation ever arises but they dont want to do some hard core traditional karate class and so many clubs have just provided a facility where people can do this. There are still many 'hardcore' clubs around and if thats what people want its still available, its just not for everyone I guess.

The town that I live in is, IMO, pretty mild on the crime side. I mean, compared to the larger cities. However, just down the street, at the local supermarket, there have been numerous purse snatchings. Head about 20min north of me, and you'll find Hartford, Ct, where shootings, among other things, happen on a daily basis. Even the city that I work for has alot of crime.

While things have changed from the old days, and despite how aware we are, which I will add, is a good thing, to be aware, I think its foolish to say that the need for Sd isn't as important. Its the people who think that it'll never happen to them, that will end up with something happening.

No longer have people coming into our homes? Take a look at this:

This was a very popular home invasion that happened. There are a few threads on here about it.
http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-steven-hayes-cheshire-home-invasion-0317,0,3111424.story

These dirtbags raped the guys wife, tied the daughters to their beds, beat the **** out of the father, and lit the house on fire. The father was the only survivor.

http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/...rd-Home-Invasion-87583057.html?corder=regular

http://www.al.com/crime/huntsvilletimes/index.ssf?/base/news/123305134696040.xml&coll=1

http://www.wfsb.com/news/14106757/detail.html

This one happened in the town that I live in. The woman lives not far from me, and the condo complex in which the car was found, is not far from mine.

There are others, but I think you see my point. Why have the arts been watered down? To suit the masses. What the public wants, is usually what the school owner gives. Parents are afraid of too much contact, thus the owner doesnt do alot. So, my question is...the owner is giving the 'impression' that what he's teaching will work, when in reality, when little Joey gets his *** kicked, I'd bet anything the parents are going to ask the school owner what happened. But you're right, and I've said it before too...thank God there're still some schools around that offer quality instruction and dont serve up fries and a coke along with the belt. LOL

 

[MJS]

Cartwheels? In a Karate Kata? Really? Why? was there a point?

Lori

Was there a point? I have no idea. Check these out.

Note the weapons katas as well.

 

[teekin]

Wow, MJS. So some of the girls have heavy gymnastics backgrounds don't they? Some of the kicks are wonderful to watch and I'd sure go see this in person if it was close but I like both Gymnastics and Kata. Some it it reminds me of synchronised swimming though. I mean there are Swimmers, Ian Thorpe, and Synchro swimmers. So there is real Kata and then there is that. Neato!:uhyeah:

Lori

 

[ralphmcpherson]

The town that I live in is, IMO, pretty mild on the crime side. I mean, compared to the larger cities. However, just down the street, at the local supermarket, there have been numerous purse snatchings. Head about 20min north of me, and you'll find Hartford, Ct, where shootings, among other things, happen on a daily basis. Even the city that I work for has alot of crime.

While things have changed from the old days, and despite how aware we are, which I will add, is a good thing, to be aware, I think its foolish to say that the need for Sd isn't as important. Its the people who think that it'll never happen to them, that will end up with something happening.

No longer have people coming into our homes? Take a look at this:

This was a very popular home invasion that happened. There are a few threads on here about it.
http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-steven-hayes-cheshire-home-invasion-0317,0,3111424.story

These dirtbags raped the guys wife, tied the daughters to their beds, beat the **** out of the father, and lit the house on fire. The father was the only survivor.

http://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/...rd-Home-Invasion-87583057.html?corder=regular

http://www.al.com/crime/huntsvilletimes/index.ssf?/base/news/123305134696040.xml&coll=1

http://www.wfsb.com/news/14106757/detail.html

This one happened in the town that I live in. The woman lives not far from me, and the condo complex in which the car was found, is not far from mine.

There are others, but I think you see my point. Why have the arts been watered down? To suit the masses. What the public wants, is usually what the school owner gives. Parents are afraid of too much contact, thus the owner doesnt do alot. So, my question is...the owner is giving the 'impression' that what he's teaching will work, when in reality, when little Joey gets his *** kicked, I'd bet anything the parents are going to ask the school owner what happened. But you're right, and I've said it before too...thank God there're still some schools around that offer quality instruction and dont serve up fries and a coke along with the belt. LOL

I understand there is still a need for self defence these days but I dont believe it is as important as it was 'back in the day'. Almost all of my mates have never had to defend themselves at any time in their life and probably never will. I doubt the same could have been said back in the days that karate was born when defending yourself was sometimes an everyday occurance.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

the thing is though karate wasn't intended to be a one size fits all model, it wasn't intended to cater for different needs, it was desinged with one purpose in mind, to be able to defend yourself against the bad guys. Nothing less and nothing more. To train traditionally one one have to do that also, no gradings etc.
You ionly have to look at many places to see where it's been watered down to make money and I'm not taking this thread down the route of teaching tiny children again, black belt clubs, sparring clubs, patches, special uniforms, gymnastic katas etc.

Training until you are out of breath doesn't mean you are training correctly, you can do that in a gym frankly. Those that say they are old school? Do they just do one kata for nine years? If not they aren't 'old school' they just like hitting each other, old school is a daft expression anyway, none of us were around in the 1800s so how can people say they train old school? Going into Bunkai and immersing yourself in their depth, that's 'old school', training those techniques are 'old school'. To be truly 'old school' they have to train Jissen not the fancy sparring stuff, more Motubu less Funakoshi I'm afraid. Reading Motubu will also shove the tenets thing out of the window as well.
We don't have thousands we have a few, don't make any money as we don't try to, we just teach people to fight.

the problem is that ALL things evolve and it is unrealistic to think that in 2010 karate will be trained the exaxct way it was hundreds of years ago. These days people may want to learn some self defence as a hobby and they dont want to come home covered in bruises and broken bones and where does the line get drawn? In the old school training people sometimes trained for hours and were not allowed to drink water during their training, they conditioned their bodies to the point of doing long term damage , some of them could barely walk by the time they hit their 40's from all the HARD training. These things were always going to change with time and as society changed, these days you would probably get sued if you made people train that way. There was a lady recently who was grabbed in an under ground carpark not far from where I live, she used some basic techs she had learnt at her local karate club and ran away and made it home safely. For her, today's version of karate worked.

 

[Tez3]

the problem is that ALL things evolve and it is unrealistic to think that in 2010 karate will be trained the exaxct way it was hundreds of years ago. These days people may want to learn some self defence as a hobby and they dont want to come home covered in bruises and broken bones and where does the line get drawn? In the old school training people sometimes trained for hours and were not allowed to drink water during their training, they conditioned their bodies to the point of doing long term damage , some of them could barely walk by the time they hit their 40's from all the HARD training. These things were always going to change with time and as society changed, these days you would probably get sued if you made people train that way. There was a lady recently who was grabbed in an under ground carpark not far from where I live, she used some basic techs she had learnt at her local karate club and ran away and made it home safely. For her, today's version of karate worked.

Why do people assume that training all those years ago was about bruises and broken bones, again that's a modern thing, training all those years ago was in kata, yes kata! You talk about old school but are talking about the 1960s, I'm talking about the origins of karate, that's how it should be done and according to you that's what people what, self defence training with added bonus! In the real old days they wouldn't spar with each other, karate wasn't meant for that, it's not for use against trained martial artists,it's for self defence and kata holds all that you need. One kata in particular, they would spend years studying it and doing it, no bruises and broken bones for them but perfect practice of kata.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Why do people assume that training all those years ago was about bruises and broken bones, again that's a modern thing, training all those years ago was in kata, yes kata! You talk about old school but are talking about the 1960s, I'm talking about the origins of karate, that's how it should be done and according to you that's what people what, self defence training with added bonus! In the real old days they wouldn't spar with each other, karate wasn't meant for that, it's not for use against trained martial artists,it's for self defence and kata holds all that you need. One kata in particular, they would spend years studying it and doing it, no bruises and broken bones for them but perfect practice of kata.

If kata is ALL you need then why do people keep saying that to learn to fight you have to hit and get hit, and apparantly hitting the air is 'useless'? Now all of a sudden kata is all you need. Personally , Id much rather spar against trained martial artists, their speed, power and precision is much more advanced than someone on the street. Each to their own I guess.

 

[MJS]

Wow, MJS. So some of the girls have heavy gymnastics backgrounds don't they? Some of the kicks are wonderful to watch and I'd sure go see this in person if it was close but I like both Gymnastics and Kata. Some it it reminds me of synchronised swimming though. I mean there are Swimmers, Ian Thorpe, and Synchro swimmers. So there is real Kata and then there is that. Neato!:uhyeah:

Lori

IMO, if someone can jump into the air and do something fancy or drop into a split, thats fine. I'm in no way, jealous of them. That stuff is fine for show, but for SD....IMO, I dont see any value in it.

 

[MJS]

I understand there is still a need for self defence these days but I dont believe it is as important as it was 'back in the day'. Almost all of my mates have never had to defend themselves at any time in their life and probably never will. I doubt the same could have been said back in the days that karate was born when defending yourself was sometimes an everyday occurance.

You're entitled to your opinion. I'll respect that. I'm simply saying the stats are out there. Yes, depending on area, that will play a part in it. I could most likely walk in my neighborhood at 2am and make it home with no issues. Walk around a larger city at 2am...well, those odds of making it back home safe are slim. Then again, as I said, even in my small town, crime happens. Car theft, cars broken into, cars vandalized, a home invasion, purse snatching....I'd be crazy to think that crime doesnt happen, just because I havent been a victim.

 

[MJS]

If kata is ALL you need then why do people keep saying that to learn to fight you have to hit and get hit, and apparantly hitting the air is 'useless'? Now all of a sudden kata is all you need. Personally , Id much rather spar against trained martial artists, their speed, power and precision is much more advanced than someone on the street. Each to their own I guess.

I"m not as big a fan of kata as others, but I think the main differences may be if you're doing the kata on someone. I do kata, and I always try to teach at least 1 application for the moves, however, I prefer to spar as well. I feel that you need to balance out your training equally, vs. focusing on just one thing.

 

[Tez3]

Oh dear, its getting quite peevish isn't it? they practised kata and didn't spar against each other in play fights with points if they touched each other, they learnt kata and they learnt to fight with the end product being a dead attacker. There was no sport, no weekly training to 'feel good', no promising to be a good little boy outside the dojo, these guys were deadly serious with the emphasis on deadly.No nice competitions in sparring or kata to see who did the techniques nicely. They worked or they died, or were maimed at best.
The kata weren't designed to be 'performed' they were/are a living aide memoire of techniques to be used in earnest. It wasn't to learn confidence, balance or anything else, it was your ancient DVD of techniques. The founders would turn in their graves if they could see what it's turned into, apart from Funakoshi I suppose, it's mostly his fault, this 'fairyfication' of kata, no wonder people don't like it much. Karate was never intended to be a sport for the delectation of the west, played at and mucked around with. It wasn't intended for 'sparring' it was intended for fighting as self defence.
Sparring as done by most martial artists is a two way thing between martial artists using the same techniques against each other, even if you hit hard it's give and take, fighting on the other hand is against someone who wants to knock your block off or worse and you are defending yourself for real. Thats the difference. Sparring is sport - fighting is not sport. Learn to fight otherwise when you get attacked you will enter that two way conversation and lose. In full contact competition such as MMA your opponent is trying to knock you out firstly sub you if they can't KO you so you had better learn to defend yourself pretty quick. However they will still use martial arts techniques whatever the rules. The best way to defend is to attack ( and yes there is a first strike in karate, of course there is, the first to move usually wins) so learn to attack, learn to fight, sparring till you get sweaty doesn't count.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Oh dear, its getting quite peevish isn't it? they practised kata and didn't spar against each other in play fights with points if they touched each other, they learnt kata and they learnt to fight with the end product being a dead attacker. There was no sport, no weekly training to 'feel good', no promising to be a good little boy outside the dojo, these guys were deadly serious with the emphasis on deadly.No nice competitions in sparring or kata to see who did the techniques nicely. They worked or they died, or were maimed at best.
The kata weren't designed to be 'performed' they were/are a living aide memoire of techniques to be used in earnest. It wasn't to learn confidence, balance or anything else, it was your ancient DVD of techniques. The founders would turn in their graves if they could see what it's turned into, apart from Funakoshi I suppose, it's mostly his fault, this 'fairyfication' of kata, no wonder people don't like it much. Karate was never intended to be a sport for the delectation of the west, played at and mucked around with. It wasn't intended for 'sparring' it was intended for fighting as self defence.
Sparring as done by most martial artists is a two way thing between martial artists using the same techniques against each other, even if you hit hard it's give and take, fighting on the other hand is against someone who wants to knock your block off or worse and you are defending yourself for real. Thats the difference. Sparring is sport - fighting is not sport. Learn to fight otherwise when you get attacked you will enter that two way conversation and lose. In full contact competition such as MMA your opponent is trying to knock you out firstly sub you if they can't KO you so you had better learn to defend yourself pretty quick. However they will still use martial arts techniques whatever the rules. The best way to defend is to attack ( and yes there is a first strike in karate, of course there is, the first to move usually wins) so learn to attack, learn to fight, sparring till you get sweaty doesn't count.

I think your first paragraph sums up nicely why people dont train like that today. Also, I train in a tkd club where when we spar my opponents are trying their hardest to knock me out and vice versa. When I was younger i trained in a karate club where people were also trying to knock your head off, so I can assure you its not just MMA where your opponent is trying to knock you out. You really should visit more dojos before insinuating that its only MMA where you spar to knock your opponent out.

 

[Steve]

Well. I think it's clear what needs to be done. 50 karateka trained only through the use of kata, 50 untrained thugs, and 50 "sports" martial artists. We wall off New York, toss them all in, wait a few months and see who's declared king.

Otherwise, this is all conjecture. Of course, I have my own opinions about what works and what doesn't. But I also think we should all train how we like, in whatever way makes sense to us and hope that none of us ever has to find out whether any of it works.