All rights. Face punching point scoring and self defence.

[RTKDCMB]

Again with the cherry picking?

Sticking with the fruit/vegetable references.

 

[drop bear]

Again with the cherry picking?

1. Boxing is NOT proven against anything but boxing. All the examples on the Internet would not constitute proof in any sense.
2. Showing that boxing can work is not showing that it is better. Everyone has agreed from the off that combat sports training is helpful in a fight.
3. You are still trying to reduce SD to fighting when my whole argument is that there is more.to learn. The point of my challenge was to find out what your sports teach with relation to the other areas of SD. You are still avoiding this masterfully.
4. You still haven't addressed the fact that you mooted your whole argument by suggesting that the audience you are speaking to are looking to go out and get into fights. Which is illegal.
Lastly. Even if I wanted to play your game, ignore every other concern and discuss fighting using SD based systems, I couldn't show you any examples. Because when they worked they avoided the fight altogether.

There would have to be some example of your self defence working against multiple attackers or some sort of evidence your self defence works against multiples or weapons? That was what you asked of me.

So far you have provided no proof or even reasonable logic except some fruit references. So my proof as poor as it is would still be more valid I imagine.

OK the other areas of self defence I don't learn from a self defence class. Because they are notoriously bad at teaching those skills. The most reliable method to learn skills like defensive driving or law or how to have positive interactions with people how to make a police statement what locks to should use to prevent break ins and all the other skills you might need to get through life is to go to the people who actually use those skills.

And lastly no. You missed the point. Not wanting to get bashed is not the same as wanting to fight people.

 

[Steve]

I


And protecting a third party, and legal implications and since you raised them avoidance and deescalation...



What? The question was where are these things taught in boxing clubs? Not "'oo's the 'ardest?".



Why on earth would I do that? My whole point has been that while combat sports are good at teaching you to fight, there is much more to self defense which makes learning self defense at a self defense school the better option.

By your logic a diplomacy course would be totally sufficient for self defense because they teach one of the skills used in SD.

for what it's worth, I do think communications skills are more helpful for self defense than martial arts. Martial arts for self defense is like earthquake preparedness for routine home maintenance.

 

[drop bear]

for what it's worth, I do think communications skills are more helpful for self defense than martial arts. Martial arts for self defense is like earthquake preparedness for routine home maintenance.

Then why isnt actual effort put into training it?

Ok it is just never in martial arts. As an explanation go look at a pick up forum and see how they deal with conflict from guys. Then look at the systems we use and suddenly ours seem very poor in comparison.

 

[Steve]

Then why isnt actual effort put into training it?

Ok it is just never in martial arts. As an explanation go look at a pick up forum and see how they deal with conflict from guys. Then look at the systems we use and suddenly ours seem very poor in comparison.

Hey. I agree. But it would be hard to sell your self defense system if you acknowledge that what you spend 99% of your time teaching people will likely never be more useful to them for self defense than tae bo, regardless of how effectively you can fight.


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[drop bear]

Hey. I agree. But it would be hard to sell your self defense system if you acknowledge that what you spend 99% of your time teaching people will likely never be more useful to them for self defense than tae bo, regardless of how effectively you can fight.


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Not really. Being able to fight empowers you as a person. And empowerment is fundamental to self defence.

There is a big difference between deescalating a conflict where you are doing them the favor. As opposed to where they are doing you one.

You read about it on the forums all the time. Where people suffer from the emotional toxicity of backing out of a fight.

 

[Steve]

Lots if things are empowering. Tea bo gets you in shape. Being fit is empowering.


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[drop bear]

Lots if things are empowering. Tea bo gets you in shape. Being fit is empowering.


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I agree. And that is why guys roid up if they are concerned about conflict. Martial arts is one method of many.

 

[Steve]

I agree. And that is why guys roid up if they are concerned about conflict. Martial arts is one method of many.

Right. Nothing wrong with knowing how to handle yourself. But for self defense, it's more psychology than practicality.

 

[DaveB]

There would have to be some example of your self defence working against multiple attackers or some sort of evidence your self defence works against multiples or weapons? That was what you asked of me.

No it wasn't. For the third time I asked you what boxing teaches in regards to these elements of self defense. I'm not interested in YouTube clips of people fighting. I'm not interested in proving or disproving what style is most effective since it is a pointless question with no answer.

So far you have provided no proof or even reasonable logic except some fruit references. So my proof as poor as it is would still be more valid I imagine.

You're imagination is misinformed.
Examples that do not constitute evidence are of equal value to not presenting evidence.

As for reasonable logic, what could be more logical than, "if you want to learn self defence, go to a self defence school." Itis the definition of a logical argument. As is the supporting reasoning that there are specialist elements (as named repeatedly through the thread) that self defence specialists will be able to instruct on that will be missed by schools that only teach sport fighting.

OK the other areas of self defence I don't learn from a self defence class. Because they are notoriously bad at teaching those skills. The most reliable method to learn skills like defensive driving or law or how to have positive interactions with people how to make a police statement what locks to should use to prevent break ins and all the other skills you might need to get through life is to go to the people who actually use those skills.

So you finally raise a counter argument. It does not support your premis; SD schools being bad at "soft" SD skills does not make combat sports better, which was your contention.
Furthermore, I disagree based on my own experiences, but as a more relatable point for you to consider, who do you think teaches police forces and other violent encounter proffessionals?

And lastly no. You missed the point. Not wanting to get bashed is not the same as wanting to fight people.

You are right, I did misunderstand you. However I disagree with your assumptions. I think there are a great many people who want to feel safer through knowledge of what to do and when, but don't want to train kungfu or boxing. I think the vast majority who take up such arts/sports for self defence simply don't realise that self defence is a wider field. I certainly didn't until I had many years of martial arts geekdom under my obi.

 

[drop bear]

, who do you think teaches police forces and other violent encounter proffessionals?

Here it is a mma guy from Brisbane.

 

[drop bear]

You're imagination is misinformed.
Examples that do not constitute evidence are of equal value to not presenting evidence.

You could find one example somewhere couldnt you? I found two examples in about ten seconds. I mean there is more than just your say so. There would have to be.

 

[drop bear]

As for reasonable logic, what could be more logical than, "if you want to learn self defence, go to a self defence school." Itis the definition of a logical argument. As is the supporting reasoning that there are specialist elements (as named repeatedly through the thread) that self defence specialists will be able to instruct on that will be missed by schools that only teach sport fighting.

Ok so say a sport fighting coach says he is a self defence specialist and teaches all the skills needed to defend yourself. Nothing stopping them coming up with no examples of their method working. Like what you are suggesting.

It is reasonable then to suggest their soft skills are as effective as yours.

 

[drop bear]

Wait. Wait ignore all that. I think I have figured out the essence of my point.

The best martial art for self defence is not based on what it promises it is based on what it delivers.

 

[Koshiki]

Silly and ineffective as I find the whole "Vids or it didn't happen" mindset, this thread seems to be straying past that into "vids or it can't happen." Which is, well, a bit weird. I get the idea that claims require proof, but I would have thought the variety of arts practiced here have, well, mainly proved themselves. Many times.

So again, silly as I found it, I did a quick search for "armed attack karate." The following are, literally, all from the first page of results. The remaining results were two results for MMA, which no one has calle dinto question, one result for boxing, and then a variety of "how to" articles. Unfortunately most news seems to go with generic "Karate"and "Kung fu" so it's hard to say what styles these are in particular. Anyway, now that we have proof that at least some practitioners of some martial arts have in fact defended themselves against multiple attackers, armed attackers, and even multiple armed attackers, maybe we can get past "vids or nothing"?

Armed Robber Stopped by Martial Art Instructor (Kung Fu)
Albanian Gunmen Thwarted by Karate
Knifeman Attacks Marine Martial Arts Instructor Karate Black Belt
Robber tries to Rob Karate Instructor
Muggers defeated by karate, 6 vs 2

So yeah, there we go. It took more time to post the links than it did to find them. Moving on?

 

[drop bear]

Silly and ineffective as I find the whole "Vids or it didn't happen" mindset, this thread seems to be straying past that into "vids or it can't happen." Which is, well, a bit weird. I get the idea that claims require proof, but I would have thought the variety of arts practiced here have, well, mainly proved

Yes but were they fighting or self defence?

 

[Koshiki]

Yes but were they fighting or self defence?

Well, fighting as last ditch self defence, I suppose. Which is where I thought we were going, based on the boxing examples given earlier. No?

 

[DaveB]

Can the erroneous questions be put to bed now?

It proves nothing because it is too small of a sample. Not everything is captured on video. No Internet discussion will ever prove or disprove anything no matter how many clips are posted on it.

The best we can do is make a sound argument for those reading to weigh the merits.

You are absolutely correct that the quality of any ma is in it's performance when tested, but no individual has ever done the research necessary to make the kind of assumptions or generalisations that you are making. Which is why I focus on the quality of your argument: what is it your boxing club or mma club teaches in relation to the other aspects of self defense?
Your avoidance is as good as an admission of inadequacy.

 

[drop bear]

Well, fighting as last ditch self defence, I suppose. Which is where I thought we were going, based on the boxing examples given earlier. No?

I just thought i would try out this open ended self defence argument. I mean all of those cases are good for what they are. But i wouldn't recommend them as self defence arts as they are two different things.

I mean they did not fully utilise skills like awarness or horse riding that are essential self defence skills


See what i did there?

 

[Koshiki]

I just thought i would try out this open ended self defence argument. I mean all of those cases are good for what they are. But i wouldn't recommend them as self defence arts as they are two different things.

I mean they did not fully utilise skills like awarness or horse riding that are essential self defence skills

I do see what you did there. Again, I'm not really interested in questioning or proving the efficacy of one style or another. However, since the topic of "proof" keeps derailing the original topic of training general targets versus specific ones, I hoped satisfying the stated requirements might lubricate the conversation a bit more.

So here is my two. And both pensioners to boot.

72 Year Old Retired Boxer Beats Up A Robber

BuckeyeSports.com - Ohio State Buckeyes Football, Basketball, Recruiting, News, Rumors & Forums Front Page

So now show your self defence system working against multiples or weapons.

This was the originally supplied proof, the challenge being to find evidence of a system's efficacy when, if I may quote you verbatim, "working against multiples or weapons."

You said specifically multiples and weapons. I will find the quote.

"Take up the challenge: explain why boxing in a ring is going to be better at dealing withweapons or multiple assailants."

Because it is proven against multiples and weapons.

Now take up your own challenge.

Here again, I was reacting to your request to, again, verbatim, "take up your own challenge," of, as you state in the first sentence of your post, "specifically weapons and multiples." Or, as you quote in the third sentence, "dealing withweapons or multiple assailants." And as you mention again in the next sentence, "proven against multiples and weapons."

There would have to be some example of your self defence working against multiple attackers or some sort of evidence your self defence works against multiples or weapons? That was what you asked of me.

So far you have provided no proof or even reasonable logic except some fruit references. So my proof as poor as it is would still be more valid I imagine..

In this post you again demanded "proof or reasonable logic." You then referenced your two articles of boxers winning fights as "still more valid." Again, this is in the context of, in your own words, "sort of evidence your self defence works against multiples or weapons."

You could find one example somewhere couldn't you? I found two examples in about ten seconds. I mean there is more than just your say so. There would have to be.

And again here, you reference your two examples, and again ask for comparable evidence. Somehow, I guess I got the vague idea that you were asking for evidence of, as in your own proof, actual combat, not avoidance, and also, as you mentioned many times, in instances of multiple assailants and weapons. A brief reminder, your own evidence consisted of an older boxer beating up a knife wielding assailant, and in the second case, three assailants.

Under my apparently false understanding of the request for proof, I've linked to examples of multiple assailants, and armed assailants, and even multiple armed assailants. Since that was, to anyone reading the thread, the sort of evidence being demanded, I hoped that spending three minutes providing it might steer the conversation to more fruitful waters.

Now, if the entire reason you provided proof and then spent three pages of the thread asking for comparable proof from other arts was so you could when presented with proof say, "AHA, so they DID actually have to fight," and then grin mischievously, then OK, well played, jokes on me.

If however, you wrote all those posts asking for evidence of combat effectiveness against weapons and multiples because you were actually looking for said evidence, then moving the target in a n attempt to pretend the evidence was poor is, well, not a very convincing argument.

You may remember, in my oh-so-fruity post, I clearly stated that I find MMA style training to be among the best training methods for dealing with actual violence, closely followed by other contact training such as boxing.

On a side note, I find the fruit metaphors entertaining.