Sports relation to Self Defence.

[Chris Parker]

If we do what we train why then do the soldiers that do MMA manage to fight successfully in MMA, fight in combat succesfully and fight I mean 'defend' themselves so successfully in street/club situations? All three things train differently. Why are peple so sure that we stay in one frame of mind in situatons, I can succesfully change tack when at work or when in the club and then again between street situations and I'm not a very good martial artist.

I'll try to explain this one. The highlighted aspects above are the important bits...

There are different aspects of the mind of a human being, which have developed seperately over our evolution, starting with the primal survival aspect (sometimes refered to as the Lizard Brain), which then had a social and emotional aspect imposed on top of that (refered to as the Mammalian Brain), and finally the conscious mind on top of that. The oldest is the Lizard Brain, and it is purely concerned with existing from one moment to the next. It is this part of your brain that regulates your breathing, your heartbeat, your sleep and hunger. It is primal and simple, but being the oldest (first evolved) part, it is incredibly strong. In fact, it is the strongest part of your brain, and is in control of pretty much everything.

The Mammalian Brain developed next, and gave us our socialisation and emotional responces, allowing interaction with others, leading to social groups and structures. Think of the same type of social groupings that you see in chimpanzees and you can see the effects of the Mammalian Brain. Chimps express many emotions, and work in a social group, interacting and co-operating quite well. But the human conscious mind hasn't made an appearance here, a number of aspects of it are missing, most notably language. This part of your brain, as mentioned, gives you your emotional responces, which goes towards explaining why you can be "controlled" by your emotions, even in spite of your conscious thoughts (the Mammalian Brain is older than the Conscious Brain, so it's stronger. However the Lizard Brain still trumps it for sheer controlling strength).

The most recent evolution of our brain is the Conscious Brain. This is, realistically speaking, a last-minute tack-on to the actual powerhouse that is our brain. This part, however, is the loudest. As mentioned, one of the key aspects of the Conscious Brain is language, and the recognition and application of it. This allows the communication of ideas, which leads to invention, which leads to technical improvements and adaptations, but also lends itself to internal chatter. This internal chatter makes us think that the Conscious Brain is in control, simply because that's the part we keep hearing all the time. It's actually the weakest of all, is the easiest to take out of the equation, and is in control of very little. But as it is always chattering away, saying "Look at me, listen to me, I am the real you, what I say is true, if I think it then that is the truth!", when none of those claims are actually true (this is what I was getting at with Alcatraz earlier when I was talking about his actual reasons for training, and it being far more than just self defence).

The real you is actually made up of the Lizard Brain and the Mammalian Brain, with a little bit on top from the Conscious Brain, but honestly very little of that. The Lizard Brain and Mammalian Brain combine to make up what is refered to as the Unconscious Mind (or Subconscious, which is a more Jungian term). The real you is not what you think you would do, the real you is what you would actually do. The real you is not what you reason the reality should be, it is what your unconscious knows the reality is.

The aspects of your personality are made up of various layers, namely;
- Experiences. These are the list of encounters of various types that relate to particular aspect of life. The important thing to realise here is that the Unconscious Mind cannot differentiate between reality and fantasy, so if your entire experience in something (say, martial arts) is from watching movies, then that will be taken as the basis for your next few aspects of your personality.

- Beliefs. Coming directly from your experiences, you form your beliefs. If you experience touching a hot stove and being burnt, you get the belief that getting burnt (and by extension touching hot things) hurts.

- Values. From your experiences you get your beliefs. However your beliefs are non-judgemental, they are neither positive nor negative. That is where values come in. From touching the hot stove and learning that getting burnt hurts, most will typically get the value that getting burnt, and being in pain, is not very pleasant, so it will not be valued very highly. On the other hand, though, if after being burnt your mother comes over and dotes a large amount of attention on you, making an over-the-top fuss, maybe giving you treats you would normally never get, then you may associate that reward with the attention from being injured, and then value it highly in order to promote the same attention and reward again. So the one experience can lead to very different values, depending on how it all goes down, and previous experiences (not getting rewards before, for example, can lead to a high value for them due to their scarcity, leading to a high value for recieving them, even trumping the low value for feeling pain).

- Behaviours. This is where those beliefs and values are expressed, and despite what most people think, your behaviours are not governed by your conscious mind at all. They are an expression of your unconscious beliefs and values, just with your conscious mind chattering over the top, making it seem like it's in control. In our example, if the burnt child develops the standard "pain = low value", then the individual could have behaviours that lead them to avoid such experiences again, in a positive, balanced individual that means a degree of healthy caution, in a less balanced one a severe phobia. If the burnt child develops a high value (for the percieved associated reward), then that could lead them to seek out such experiences, leading to dangerous experiences, ranging from being an adrenaline junkie, to more S&M type personalities.

The most important thing to notice in the above is that the Unconscious Mind will always choose what it percieves as the best of any presented options. The child who values pain highly chose it as the better option due to the percieved rewards associated.

Another thing to realise is that these processes take place early in your development. In fact, most of your core value and beliefs, and by extension your behaviours, and therefore what we refer to as your personality, are set by the time you are 7 (leading to the classic Catholic statement "Give me a boy until he is 7, and I will give you the man"), with final adjustments being taken on up til about the age of 16. After that, the main methods of changing any aspect of your personality are either therapy, or a traumatic incident.

Essentially, therapy and a traumatic incident are the same thing, just with a different timeline, and more control over the therapy form. In both cases the person is exposed to experiences that confront the established beliefs, forcing an alteration to that belief, or simple abandoning it entirely. This naturally leads to new values, which gives new behaviours, leading to a personality change. I'm sure you've all heard of people who have had a "life-changing experience", been involved in a major accident (or know someone who has), gotten a major illness, and so on. These are examples of traumatic experiences, forcing established beliefs to be challenged, and then new beliefs taking over.

Martial arts are actually very much the therapy version of this (although if I am asked to get someone good at self defence in a hurry, it is much more the traumatic version....), in that you are guided through a range of experiences (techniques, training drills, pressure tests, competition, sparring etc) which challenge your beliefs about what is powerful, effective, and so on in regard to fighting, martial arts, and anything related in your Unconscious Mind, leading to new values, which in turn give rise to new bahaviours. In essence, this means that if you train in such a way that you experience what you consider success in competition, your belief will most likely become that the competitive form of training is good, effective, powerful etc, you will value it highly, and your behaviours will change to match successful actions in the competitive form you train in. Essentially the behaviours match what you value highly out of your new beliefs, based on your experiences.

So the next thing is to realise what is actually happening when you are forming these new beliefs. In your Unconsious Mind there are certain compartments, boxes for certain aspects of your life. These boxes might be "Pleasure", "Relaxation", "Fun", "Taste", and so on. Each of these have their place in either the Lizard Brain or the Mammalian Brain. For example, those listed above will most likely be placed somewhere in the Mammalian Brain, as they are more to do with emotional/sensual inputs and experiences, rather than the pure survival aspect of the Lizard Brain. So you need to understand which part of the brain you are programming when you are training, and that really comes down to how you train it. If you train in a half-hearted fashion, or a light-hearted fashion, then you are basically telling your Unconscious Mind that what you are experiencing is "Fun", or "Pleasure", maybe even "Relaxation", meaning that it is not put into the "Survival", "Serious Life Saving Skill" box in the Lizard Brain.

As you said above, each is trained differently. And that is important (this is why I could say that your MMA training and your SD training is seperate), as if they weren't then there would be bad news. If everything was trained the same (MMA, SD, Military Methods), then the MMA part would see real injuries very often (from training it with the mindset of either SD or Military), or dangerous tactics and strategies would be employed in a real situation (from training them with an MMA mindset). So the more seperation you can generate, the simpler it is to adapt, as all that really needs to happen then is for the Unconsious Mind to recognise the situation it is in, and look to previous experiences in that field to generate the correct beliefs, values, and behaviours. That way an MMA guy who also trains SD and as a member of the Armed Forces can always go to what is appropriate, whereas someone who trains exclusively in MMA can have some issues. The difference is not in the technical approach, it's in the understanding of the mindset in training (what I was talking about in the post above, you don't have the option of changing your mindset in a real situation, so you choose your mindset for the results you want in your training, and that is where you can change things around). And by training with the different mindsets for different situations, that is how you can adapt to different situations as they happen. And that is what I am talking about when I talk about the frame of mind in the situation. It needs to be addressed beforehand (in training), as you will only have available to you what you have already put in.

Okay, that was a long one as well.... hope it made some kind of sense!

 

[Tez3]

It did Chris...but.........what about the female brain?

I defy you to explain that one!! :lol:


It does annoy me though when people assume things about MMAers, it's as if they can't possibly be able to stop thinking about rules, refs illegal techniques etc because they train for competitions. I think they are far more liable to be able to change than those who when punching always pull their punches or who only ever punch the air. Athletes manage to train for pentathons, triathons, decathlons etc so why wouldn't we be able to train MMA and SD? And make them both work.
I think the perception is still that MMAers are thick! they get fit and hit people. The truth is yes they are fit but they also play physical chess during a fight, a lot of intelligent thinking is required to be a fighter in the cage.

 

[Chris Parker]

You really want me to start discussing female psychology here? Really?

I completely agree that MMA athletes are intelligent, frankly if they weren't I don't think they'd last too long!

In terms of how an athlete can train for a pentathlon, triathlon, etc with no issues, well that's partially because the same type of adrenaline dump doesn't occur (taking the conscious mind out of the equation), and also because they do the same thing: train each event seperately so that they know how to pace themselves differently for each type of competition. This really is closer to sports martial arts training. Start chasing that same athlete with a knife, and you'll see a running method rather different to their training and competing, I wager.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It did Chris...but.........what about the female brain?

I defy you to explain that one!! :lol:


It does annoy me though when people assume things about MMAers, it's as if they can't possibly be able to stop thinking about rules, refs illegal techniques etc because they train for competitions. I think they are far more liable to be able to change than those who when punching always pull their punches or who only ever punch the air. Athletes manage to train for pentathons, triathons, decathlons etc so why wouldn't we be able to train MMA and SD? And make them both work.
I think the perception is still that MMAers are thick! they get fit and hit people. The truth is yes they are fit but they also play physical chess during a fight, a lot of intelligent thinking is required to be a fighter in the cage.

I have nothing but respect for any sport fighter, including MMA fighters.

I don't think that changes the basic premise that we do what we have trained ourselves to do. After many years in law enforcement, I found that I seldom go for face strikes or joint-breaking; I was trained to use non-lethal restraining techniques. I had to work to overcome that tendency; wrestling someone to the ground in an armbar takedown left me reaching for cuffs that were not there, waiting for my partner to dive in who did not exist.

I still instinctively tend to look for a trip instead of a snap kick knee breaker. But in a pure SD situation, the latter would tend to end the threat immediately.

And it's not really about intelligence, the first response is ingrained and requires no concious intervention. Sport is all about thinking and planning. SD tends to be sudden and unplanned. You go with what comes naturally to you at the time, mostly.

 

[Chris Parker]

Ah, missed a bit with this one....

It did Chris...but.........what about the female brain?

I defy you to explain that one!! :lol:


It does annoy me though when people assume things about MMAers, it's as if they can't possibly be able to stop thinking about rules, refs illegal techniques etc because they train for competitions. I think they are far more liable to be able to change than those who when punching always pull their punches or who only ever punch the air. Athletes manage to train for pentathons, triathons, decathlons etc so why wouldn't we be able to train MMA and SD? And make them both work.
I think the perception is still that MMAers are thick! they get fit and hit people. The truth is yes they are fit but they also play physical chess during a fight, a lot of intelligent thinking is required to be a fighter in the cage.

Now, my above long-winded post about the various levels of the mind I was hoping may have helped dispell this idea that you can still "think" your way through this type of thing. Really, it just doesn't work that way, as (as stated above) you are dealing purely with an unconscious responce in these situations, rather than conscious choice (to "stop thinking" about the rules would be conscious-mind, not unconscious responce). So the first realistic thing to do is to take out any kind of "Well, I think this makes sense, so that's what I'd do!" approach to these ideas, because I guarantee you that that will not be what you actually do (which is why anytime someone here or elsewhere has asked "what would you do if....?" I have said it's impossible to answer without being in the situation itself. You really don't know until you're in it, so to speak).

The conscious mind is not the powerful part of yourself. It is not in control, despite all the noise it makes. And if you ever find yourself thinking "well, I'd do this", then you have missed the reality of how this actually works, mainly because under the high stress, high adrenaline conditions of a real assault, that part of you that thinks "well, I'd do this" is the part of you that shuts down. If you rely on it, you're relying on nothing.

With your comment about MMA fighters being able to "change" more readily than non-contact style fighters, well no, really. Neither is more likely to change, as again that is a conscious mind aspect. What I feel you are getting at is that the MMA guy will be more able to land powerful, solid strikes in his own defence than the non-contact guy, yes? Okay, that's agreed, but the thing to realise is that that is not changing or adapting to an SD situation. The MMA guy will simply follow his training, which involves hitting and hitting hard. But he won't necessarily be doing anything that different to the ring (opponent in front of me, my job is to knock them out), whereas if he was adapting and changing to an SD mentality, he may look for options such as avoidance, escape, verbal defusion and so forth, which are not covered in MMA training. The non-contact guy, on the other hand, if it does come to physical blows, will potentially still pull their strikes (the MMA guy won't, although he may not go for a full knock-out punch first off, as he'll be used to wanting to last a number of rounds, and wear down his opponent. An SD guy, in a physical situation, should be looking for a straight knock-out pretty much immediately), simply because that is how they trained.

But here's the thing. I explained above the ways our behaviours (including our abilities to fight and defend ourselves) are formed (experiences give beliefs, beliefs give value, value + belief give behaviours). Now, you may think that that makes it all very easy to generate a certain set of behaviours, but unfortunately (as demonstrated with our burnt child above) the way it all happens is rather individual. There is every likelihood that the non-contact guy (on an unconscious level), despite experiencing success in his chosen sport, just doesn't believe what he does is powerful for use in a real situation. That can lead to his training all being put in the box in his head marked "Sport", and nothing in the one marked "Survival!" So, even if he has years, or even decades of training behind him, when it really comes down to it, nothing comes out, as there is simply nothing there (where it needs to be) to come out. By the same token, an MMA guy could have an experience where he really injures someone, in a match or in training, which leads to an unconscious belief that if he does something he will permanently injure someone, which he gives a very low value to (or gives a high value to not hurting anyone), meaning that his expressed behaviours (what he does under the high stress high adrenaline conditions of an assault, which is actually a fair bit different to the stress and adrenaline conditions of a match) make him hold back, in which case a non-contact guy could concievably be better adapted to a real assault or attack. Gee, this is fun isn't it?

The only way to know is to check behaviours by simulating the conditions that you want to be able to perform under as closely to reality as possible. Andy Moynihan here, for example, recently underwent a reality shooting experience, where they went to the extreme of drawing blood to simulate a number of effects. Now, that's a bit extreme for most people, but it's very realistic.

But to be effective in all areas here, you would need to do exactly what you have said here: "Train MMA and SD... and make them both work". If you train them both seperately, and compartmentalise them in different sections of your unconscious responces (by employing the appropriate mindset to each, and not allowing them to get confused in your head), then yes, it can absolutely work. But training just MMA and thinking that is SD training, or really any martial art or sport, and thinking it's by definition SD training, won't. What you will be doing is training for the conditions of the training itself, whether that is a sport, a tradition, or something else, and typically you are training a skill set that is removed, in some cases very far removed from what would be required for SD application. The mechanics may, and probably will work, but that is not what SD training is about.

Oh, and you may notice that the above explaination of the conscious/unconscious mind(s) is how I read posts here and elsewhere. These posts are really simply expressions, or behaviours, which show me (by writing style, word choice, care of construction, and so on) a fair amount of the values and beliefs of the persons writing them, which can give me a fair few clues about the experiences that lie behid them. There's typically a lot more revealed than most think.... and that may go a way to explaining my personal behaviours in my posting style as well. I'll let you think on that one...

 

[alcatraz]

Chris,

How do you then explain those who trained to a high level in their particular sporting format, and yet were still able to 'switch on' when it came to a violent live situation?

For many, many years, I was succesful in both Semi-Contact sporting formats such as WKF/WUKO Kumite, Semi-Contact (Points), and Light-Contact (Continuous); and later I dabbled with some sucess in Knockdown Karate, and Full-Contact Kickboxing formats.

At the same time, I was also working in the Nightclub Security industry, and had to 'switch on' on a near nightly basis.

I also grew up in what was a rather 'rough' part of Glasgow, and as a teen found myself in many scrapes. Despite the fact I competed in Sport Karate as a teen, due to the way my instructor taught us, I was able to defend and protect myself.

In recent years, I've found myself having to defend my wife and myself from someone who pulled a knife on us in a cinema carpark.

This idea that someone who has trained to any sort of level in a sporting Martial Art format can't switch between modes is flawed, as I could give at least a dozen examples (albeit anecdotal) of people who have trained in Sport Martial Arts 'switching on' and defending & protecting themselves (and others).

Also, I have never said anywhere in any of my posts that Sport training should replace SD training as a viable alternative, and if you re-read my opening post correctly, you will see that I actually suggest the opposite.

The point I WAS making is that some sporting formats which are full-contact in nature do lend themselves to SD better than some so called non-sporting Martial Arts.

 

[Tez3]

I think nearly anyone would be able to switch quicker than someone who only ever punches air to be honest! The whole point of learning to punch is to hit something even if it's only a pad. Hitting nothing for your entire training does nothing, I've seen places where they do that and the instructors carefully positioning the arms and fists to be 'just so' perfect in techniques but these people don't know how to hit someone!

It's not me saying that MMA fighters can't switch and I've never said it's a 'thinking' thing, they do it automatically but the point is they do it, I know I've seen it and done it. What I've been saying it that those who say MMA is all very well in the ring/cage but when there's no rules/ref/rounds etc then MMA fighters can't turn it on because we fight as we train are wrong, I'm saying, well yes they can, why they can do it is of less interest tbh than the fact they can fight without being constricted by rules thus proving they can turn to whatever they need to do. There are plenty who say MMAers ( and other fighters) can't fight in the street because they only ever train to fight with rules.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I think nearly anyone would be able to switch quicker than someone who only ever punches air to be honest! The whole point of learning to punch is to hit something even if it's only a pad. Hitting nothing for your entire training does nothing, I've seen places where they do that and the instructors carefully positioning the arms and fists to be 'just so' perfect in techniques but these people don't know how to hit someone!

It's not me saying that MMA fighters can't switch and I've never said it's a 'thinking' thing, they do it automatically but the point is they do it, I know I've seen it and done it. What I've been saying it that those who say MMA is all very well in the ring/cage but when there's no rules/ref/rounds etc then MMA fighters can't turn it on because we fight as we train are wrong, I'm saying, well yes they can, why they can do it is of less interest tbh than the fact they can fight without being constricted by rules thus proving they can turn to whatever they need to do. There are plenty who say MMAers ( and other fighters) can't fight in the street because they only ever train to fight with rules.

Its all relative though. I agree that throwing punches to the air is nowhere near as effective as actually hitting something. But to be fair, I dont think its accurate to say that hitting air achieves 'nothing'. If you get one guy who sits around on the couch all day and does nothing and compare him to someone who throws 200 punches a week at the air, I can tell you who will throw the better punch. It may not be ideal, and I certainly wouldnt train that way but people tend to be too quick to dismiss things as 'useless'. Different training methods have varying degrees of teaching effective ways to defend yourself but very few things are 'useless'. I gave the example earlier of WTF sparring, people say its 'useless', but it does teach timing distancing, getting hit, reflexes etc. Yes, its very limited, but not useless.

 

[Tez3]

Its all relative though. I agree that throwing punches to the air is nowhere near as effective as actually hitting something. But to be fair, I dont think its accurate to say that hitting air achieves 'nothing'. If you get one guy who sits around on the couch all day and does nothing and compare him to someone who throws 200 punches a week at the air, I can tell you who will throw the better punch. It may not be ideal, and I certainly wouldnt train that way but people tend to be too quick to dismiss things as 'useless'. Different training methods have varying degrees of teaching effective ways to defend yourself but very few things are 'useless'. I gave the example earlier of WTF sparring, people say its 'useless', but it does teach timing distancing, getting hit, reflexes etc. Yes, its very limited, but not useless.

Sorry, hitting air is useless, all you get is bad joints. The best punch is one that connects, the guy on the couch will be aiming to hit so more chance of him getting the KO than the guy who hits air, who doesn't know how to connect.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi alcatraz,

Chris,

How do you then explain those who trained to a high level in their particular sporting format, and yet were still able to 'switch on' when it came to a violent live situation?

Hmm, I really don't think you're reading everything I'm writing here. Training in a sporting system doesn't stop you being able to generate success, or defend yourself, the point has simply been that there are real concerns with it as a training form if self defence is your actual aim, as it goes against the ideals of self defence quite a bit. That said, I don't ever like not answering questions, so I'll try to clarify for you here.

Experience gives you your beliefs, your beliefs form your values, and in turn these generate your behaviours. Now, if someone such as yourself has spent their entire time (or at least the majority) in sporting systems, particularly if that is where they started, then the initial and primary experiences with their understanding of violence is based on those sport-system training methods. Those experiences then give beliefs ("what I'm doing is powerful, I can look after myself, I can hit someone when I need or want to, the more I compete the better I get at defending myself...." etc) which may be realistic or not (that really doesn't matter). Those beliefs give rise to your values ("sport training makes me good at defending myself, therefore I value sport training highly, because I value self defence highly" and so on). Again, these values are not necessarily based in reality, because that isn't a factor here. If your belief system says that your sport training equals self defence training (whether it's realistic or not), then when faced with a real attack or assault your unconscious mind will look for any relevant experiences to reference, which will be based on your training, and that coupled with a sense of confidence/belief in yourself, is more important than any technique, punch, kick, throw, or anything else of that ilk.

In essence, if they placed things in a "self defence" category in their mind during training, whether the training was actually geared up for it or not, then that will give a reference to enable the sport-trained person to defend themselves.

For many, many years, I was succesful in both Semi-Contact sporting formats such as WKF/WUKO Kumite, Semi-Contact (Points), and Light-Contact (Continuous); and later I dabbled with some sucess in Knockdown Karate, and Full-Contact Kickboxing formats.

Which all went towards your experiences, reinforcing your established beliefs and values, leading to your behaviours.

At the same time, I was also working in the Nightclub Security industry, and had to 'switch on' on a near nightly basis.

Honestly, this was probably far more important than all your years of sport training. You deliberately put yourself in a position where you absolutely had to bring the "survival" aspect of your mind to the fore, and every experience there would have had a more powerful affect on your beliefs and values than all the tournaments you entered.

I also grew up in what was a rather 'rough' part of Glasgow, and as a teen found myself in many scrapes. Despite the fact I competed in Sport Karate as a teen, due to the way my instructor taught us, I was able to defend and protect myself.

I wouldn't mind your expanding on "how your instructor taught you", as stated there are many forms, such as Tez's MMA group who also teach SD as a seperate but integrated aspect, so I'd be curious as to what methods you were taught. Again, glad you could look after yourself, but really this is not the premise of your thread.... but I'll get back to that at the end.

In recent years, I've found myself having to defend my wife and myself from someone who pulled a knife on us in a cinema carpark.

Cool, well done, what exactly happened? What did they do? What did you do?

This idea that someone who has trained to any sort of level in a sporting Martial Art format can't switch between modes is flawed, as I could give at least a dozen examples (albeit anecdotal) of people who have trained in Sport Martial Arts 'switching on' and defending & protecting themselves (and others).

Okay, in my initial post here I stated (I think in the very first paragraph) that sport training (and all other martial art training) are not designed for self defence, but that that did not mean that they didn't give you assistance, provide you with benefits for self defence, and so on. The point was more that if self defence is your actual aim, there are better methods to approach it than martial arts.

But to get to the point here, I have also known many people who have been able to defend themselves after training in sport systems (including myself, by the way. My background includes Tani-ha Shito Ryu Shukokai Karate-do, developed by Tani Sensei to improve success in competitions, and Rhee Tae Kwon Do, as well as others), as I have known TMA guys who have been able to defend themselves. And I have known people with absolutely no training whatsoever in Traditional, Sport, Modern, Eclectic, or any other form of martial arts at all who have been able to defend themselves. Does this prove that sport training still works, or does it highlight that the method of training is an influence, more than a cause of ability for defence? So I'm sorry to say that your anecdote don't actually make your claim any more or less valid. The common thing amongst all of them is that they access the survival part of their brain, and have the beliefs and values to generate the behaviours necessary ("I believe that I can defend myself, I believe that I have a right to defend myself, I value my health and safety highly, I don't value being hurt or made into a victim, I fight back, kick, scream, whatever it takes"). And that can be anyone.

Also, I have never said anywhere in any of my posts that Sport training should replace SD training as a viable alternative, and if you re-read my opening post correctly, you will see that I actually suggest the opposite.

Let's test that, shall we?

In my humble opinion, the study of Martial Arts primarily should be with a self defence/protection frame of mind.

That's not to say that other reasons for participating in Martial Arts are not legitimate, but we should be asking the question, 'Do these other reasons bond with, or detract from that Self-Defence element?"

Perhaps the nearest non self-defence aspect of training which is closest in relation to SD is the sport element.

I know, I know...Sport is NOT self defence, etc, blah, blah, blah...But surely some form of contact training is preferential to none, and the various sport formats do allow, rule sets notwithstanding, a degree of pressure testing your art in a controlled enviroment.

This got me to thinking however.

As you can tell, I'm a huge advocate of Sport Martial arts, and that comes from my background and experiences, but, do some methods and systems delude their students into believing that their particular sport format will transfer well into a live self-protection scenario?

For example, some Sport Karate formats teach students to pull techniques prior to impact, and as for WTF Taekwondo..I'm sorry to say that in my 33 years studying Martial Arts (24 of which have been as an adult) I can see no practical transfer from mat to street from that particular format.

On the other hand Sporting formats such as MMA, Kyokushinkai, Lei Tai, Muay Thai, and other Kickboxing methods, are more suited as a base for crossover intoSelf-Defence/Protection.

I know it's not what you train, but rather how you train, but are certain methods of sport martial arts more detrimental to self-defence than others?

Well, you're not really a fan of WTF-style training (although I actually gave some defences to that as self defence-pro, you're writing it off completely... hmm, interesting that I seem more open to the sport system being helpful for self defence than you are, isn't it?), but the rest doesn't in any way suggest what you're now claiming. You do not claim anything like "the opposite (of the idea that) sports training is a viable alternative to SD training", which would be saying that it is... in fact, you laud a number of sporting training methods as being better for SD! You comment that the nearest element to SD is the sport aspect (at least, I think so.... that's a rather convoluted sentence you have there....).


The point I WAS making is that some sporting formats which are full-contact in nature do lend themselves to SD better than some so called non-sporting Martial Arts.

And so I continue to suggest that your understanding and experiences in martial arts are actually fairly limited in this area, mainly due to the fact that you seem to have a rather limited understanding of self defence and how it differs from martial arts training. Actual self defence is maybe 5% physical, when it comes down to it, whereas martial arts training is primarily physical. And if your understanding of self defence is limited to physical confrontations, then you've missed most of the most important lessons that self defence training has to offer.

Now, I said I'd get back to what this thread has been about, didn't I? Okay. This thread started with you declaring that all martial arts should be trained with SD as it's primary focus (disputed, by the way), and then went on to question if there are better or worse training methods within sporting systems. So the argument has never been "can you realistically learn things that can help you defend yourself in sport systems?" as that has not been disputed (which is why I suggested you actually haven't read my posts clearly...). Sporting systems can help, as can any training, however if you are truly focused on self defence as a primary, or sole goal, then what on earth are you doing in a sport system? Unless, of course, your reasons are a little broader, and a little different...

Hey Irene,

I think nearly anyone would be able to switch quicker than someone who only ever punches air to be honest! The whole point of learning to punch is to hit something even if it's only a pad. Hitting nothing for your entire training does nothing, I've seen places where they do that and the instructors carefully positioning the arms and fists to be 'just so' perfect in techniques but these people don't know how to hit someone!

It's not me saying that MMA fighters can't switch and I've never said it's a 'thinking' thing, they do it automatically but the point is they do it, I know I've seen it and done it. What I've been saying it that those who say MMA is all very well in the ring/cage but when there's no rules/ref/rounds etc then MMA fighters can't turn it on because we fight as we train are wrong, I'm saying, well yes they can, why they can do it is of less interest tbh than the fact they can fight without being constricted by rules thus proving they can turn to whatever they need to do. There are plenty who say MMAers ( and other fighters) can't fight in the street because they only ever train to fight with rules.

No, I don't think anyone suggests that MMA guys and girls can't fight, just that the training is geared to fighting in a ring, which has different needs, requirements, focus', ideals, aims, forms of success, and so on, than self defence. The argument is more that, as Bill said, if all you have in your toolbox is a hammer, you tend to treat everything like a nail.

You know what, I love a good anecdote, and these pretty much sums up our approach to self defence versus the approach of a sporting system (in this case BJJ). The first is one of our black belts in Sydney, the second is me during my time cross-training in BJJ as part of my preparation for my latest grade assessment.

1) One of our Black Belts in Sydney decided to broaden his knowledge and experience by going along to do some training in a BJJ school local to him. The class was great, but the focus was a little different to what he was used to. As these guys were ground-specialists (and we're not), he was pretty much taken to school a fair bit (so was I in my BJJ time... got them a few times, picked it up faster than a number of others, but still, it's their element, not mine), which is a great lesson in ego, amongst other things. As our Black Belt was changing after a class, the BJJ instructor noticed the word "Ninjutsu" on the Black Belts bag, and asked about it. Our guy explained that it was a old survival art, and covered a fair bit. The BJJ instructor said "You know what jiu-jitsu is? Say I'm in a bar, and I turn around and knock into a guy, and I spill his drink, well I can just get behind him and choke him out! That's jiu-jitsu! So, what's ninjutsu about then, huh?". Our Black Belt replied "It's about buying the guy another drink."

No machismo required, just being aware enough to recognise what is really needed to look after yourself.

2) During one particular session I was being taughta mounting position transitioning into a controlling arm-lock. As I performed the move, I stopped to look at it a little more thoroughly. The instructor saw me, came over, and misinterpretting why I had stopped, reassured me that I was doing it correctly. "If you get them like that, they can't do anything!" he proudly told me. "Okay" I said "but what about my groin? I feel a little exposed here." "Oh, no, he can't do that. It's against the rules."

Frankly, the technique was great. But from a less-limited perspective, it was flawed in that there was no consideration for the openings it created, as they couldn't be taken advantage of within the rules. I was also constantly told how it was for real fighting, and then had my knee position corrected (to where I felt far less control, and more vulnerable) as "that is where you need to be to get the points." Suffice to say that BJJ isn't for me... and a workshop with Royce Gracie actually confirmed that quite solidly.

 

[Tez3]

Chris, there's a fair few posts on MT and other places where people say that MMA is no good because we train for rules and refs etc. I know peoples mindsets about this lol and that they get their info from watching UFC, ugh.

We don't train for BJJ points, I know they do things a bit differently, such as getting points for knees on stomach etc. If we put a knee on the stomach it's because it's going to meet their spine. We do differentiate between what is good for MMA and what is good for defending yourself, sometimes it's just a small adjustment, sometimes it's a recommendation not to use it for one or the other. We do a fair bit of control and restrain stuff too as well as the stuff we do for multiple attackers (that tends for us to be more as in a riot situation against non English speaking people and the regimental dinners)

 

[sgtmac_46]

Minor quibble; rules intended for safety prohibit certain strikes in sport. Since we do what we train to do, in SD one might pass over methods that might more quickly end an altercation.

While that would, in theory, seem correct.......I suspect in practice it often doesn't manifest itself that way.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Yep. The main issue is the "proper understanding of the difference in application". This is absolutely necessary, however most people seem to put it in at the wrong time (ie "when in a real situation, I'll turn off the "sport" mindset and go into SD mode"). The difference needs to be understood at the level of training the responces in the first place, as in a real situation your conscious mind (the part that would say "hang on, this isn't a competition") basically goes walkabout. So you need to train with that SD mindset if that is the responce you want, rather than with a sporting mindset.

The addition to Bill's point is that you may indeed pass over more effective methods, but you may also find yourself going for things that are counter-productive in an SD situation, such as trading blows, not escaping, looking to go to ground without first taking care of possible members of a group etc etc etc.

It's been my real world experience that the benefits gained for those skills practiced under realistic stress, i.e. heavy sparring, give far more advantages than practicing skills many deem 'too dangerous' for hard sparring.

In other words, in the real world, folks get knocked out by those who have 'merely trained sport boxing' for example, more times than not.

It goes back to the old Mike Tyson quote about 'everyone having a plan until they get punched in the nose'........well, if you're not getting punched in the nose while trying that eye gauge, there's no realistic expectation you'll pull it off when someone is punching you in the nose.

Again, my personal experience supports this........lots of folks I know with theoretical 'lethal skills' have been rendering unconscious by a mere 'sport fighter'.

 

[sgtmac_46]

If we do what we train why then do the soldiers that do MMA manage to fight successfully in MMA, fight in combat succesfully and fight I mean 'defend' themselves so successfully in street/club situations? All three things train differently. Why are peple so sure that we stay in one frame of mind in situatons, I can succesfully change tack when at work or when in the club and then again between street situations and I'm not a very good martial artist.

A punch is a punch and a kick is a kick. The only realistic difference is one of mindset, and it suggests that the mindset of those who enter the ring in a combat sport are probably more geared to the kind of killer instinct necessary to prevail in a 'street fight'.

The reason many folks get in to boxing and MMA is that they LIKE hitting people and getting hit, they enjoy fighting, and are quite willing to engage in it. That mindset is the FIRST step to prevailing in ANY violent encounter. Far more important than the specific techniques.

Now, one could argue, with some measure of merit, that 'the willingness to runaway' is a key component of 'self-defense'.......and by some measure it is.........but if what we are talking about is the ability to engage in and impose your will in a violent confrontation, then the kind of temperament that drives many to engage in 'combat sports' is the exact mindset necessary to prevail in other violent encounters.

That's the same kind of aggressive personality that drives one to climb mountains and join Special Operations units...........the need to express oneself in an aggressive manner and overcome near impossible obstacles.

 

[sgtmac_46]

When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. I had a friend who came home from Vietnam and gouged the eyes out of a man who broke into his car. With his thumbs. He said it was how he was trained.

That's BS...(on his part, not yours)....I train to shoot people, too, but that doesn't mean I shoot everyone who resists arrest.

 

[Chris Parker]

Chris, there's a fair few posts on MT and other places where people say that MMA is no good because we train for rules and refs etc. I know peoples mindsets about this lol and that they get their info from watching UFC, ugh.

We don't train for BJJ points, I know they do things a bit differently, such as getting points for knees on stomach etc. If we put a knee on the stomach it's because it's going to meet their spine. We do differentiate between what is good for MMA and what is good for defending yourself, sometimes it's just a small adjustment, sometimes it's a recommendation not to use it for one or the other. We do a fair bit of control and restrain stuff too as well as the stuff we do for multiple attackers (that tends for us to be more as in a riot situation against non English speaking people and the regimental dinners)

Yeah, I was refering more to this thread in particular, I don't think anyone has suggested that MMA guys can't fight here. My apologies for any misunderstanding. One of our Instructors in Brisbane has been cross-training in MMA for a little while now, so such myths don't really exist for us!

It's been my real world experience that the benefits gained for those skills practiced under realistic stress, i.e. heavy sparring, give far more advantages than practicing skills many deem 'too dangerous' for hard sparring.

In other words, in the real world, folks get knocked out by those who have 'merely trained sport boxing' for example, more times than not.

It goes back to the old Mike Tyson quote about 'everyone having a plan until they get punched in the nose'........well, if you're not getting punched in the nose while trying that eye gauge, there's no realistic expectation you'll pull it off when someone is punching you in the nose.

Again, my personal experience supports this........lots of folks I know with theoretical 'lethal skills' have been rendering unconscious by a mere 'sport fighter'.

While, again, I'm far from saying that sport systems don't give benefits my point is more about the highlighted section above. By training in such a way (realistic pressure, sparring being one version, not my favourite, but one) you are far more likely to generate success than if you don't. Regardless of whether it is a sporting system, hard contact, or not. But once more, this is only focused on the physical side of things, and that is a very limited, machismo approach.

 

[Tez3]

Handy hint for ease of eye gouging...always lick your fingers first, saves the eyeball sticking to your fingers.

I've found that people who do the gouging the eye out with only the thumb are also very good at the striking the nosebone until it goes into the brain strike too.

 

[sgtmac_46]

While, again, I'm far from saying that sport systems don't give benefits my point is more about the highlighted section above. By training in such a way (realistic pressure, sparring being one version, not my favourite, but one) you are far more likely to generate success than if you don't. Regardless of whether it is a sporting system, hard contact, or not. But once more, this is only focused on the physical side of things, and that is a very limited, machismo approach.

Machismo gets a lot of negative press in the age of the common man.......but the reality is that in violent physical altercations (fleeing aside) machismo, testosterone, whatever you want to call it..........is a key element of imposing your will.


Now, don't get me wrong.......I do agree that there is a difference between combat sports and combat, as i've mentioned...........but that difference can be overstated. There's a reason why boxers who find themselves in a street confrontation quite often knock their assailants unconscious in short order, even multiple assailants (despite not 'training' for multiple assailants). The skills of hitting and getting hit translate very well.

 

[alcatraz]

Chris,

You keep bandying statements that I don't understand Martial Arts, or I dont understand self-defence, and you also keep refering to my comments as being my point of view as though that is something negative.

Nowhere have I said that my POV is correct and all others are wrong. However, as this is a discussion board, I'm sure that my POV and perspective are as valid as your own. Yes?

First of all; I understand Martial Arts very well. After 33 years of study, and research, I think it's safe to say I know my subject matter rather well.

Second. I understand the field of self defence/protection very, very well, as this is my primary concern in the study of martial arts, and one which I pass onto my students.

I know all about physical and verbal indicators, prevention, etc, etc..but at the end of the proverbial day, the physical aspect of what we as martial artists do, is train to fight, and whilst we hope that we never have to use that training, the fact is that whenever we practice a drill, or a Kata, or spar, that activity is geared towards a physical endgame.

Which brings me to the next point. The point of this threas was to discuss my opinion, that those who train in full-contact sporting formats are more likely to be able to defend themselves in a violent altercation than someone who may study self-defence/protection in what I call a theory based art.

Let's, as an example, take the opposite ends of the martial spectrum.

You have Mr Smith who has decided that he wants to learn Martial Arts for Self-Defence and joins a GKR Karate class.

You have Mr Jones who has decided that he would like to train to fight under a full-contact sporting system such as MMA.

Now let's say that Mr Jones and Mr Smith are the same age, and, provisionaly the same fitness level. They both put the same hours into their training.

If both Mr Smith and Mr Jones were attacked, I would bet 12 to the dozen that Mr Jones would be more likely to survive a violent confrontation than Mr Smith, despite the fact that Mr Jones was only training for a sport.

 

[alcatraz]

Oh and as a PS, Chris.

I also said that Self Defence/Protection was my PRIMARY reason for studying Martial Arts, but nowhere have I said it was my sole reason.

I enjoy the aesthetics of Martial Arts, I enjoy the history, I enjoy the diversity, and yes, I enjoy the sporting side, as a spectator, participant, and coach.

But those reasons are secondary to the self-defence/protection element.