Tenacious_Red
Orange Belt
Thank you for the clarification, and I do indeed concur. Rules are just a separate construction from what dictates a, "fight."
Sport And TMA....Again
- Thread starter MJS
- Start date
Thank you for the clarification, and I do indeed concur. Rules are just a separate construction from what dictates a, "fight."
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
I think that's the point a lot of people are trying to make. Nobody says you don't need grappling. They say GJJ isn't the only grappling game in town. I learned some grappling in Goju and in my opinion its enough to use against most people on the street but I'd get crushed by even a 2 or 3 striped white belt in BJJ or a guy with a few months of Judo or even a little college wrestling. So I went out and started learning Judo and BJJ. To me and for me Judo is more appropriate for what I do and what I use it for. Other folks may find BJJ better for them or Wrestling or Aikido or any of the other arts that have grappling in it.
Too much credit is given to the gracies in this regard. Grappling was coming not just GJJ but all forms. The gracies were just the best to market it and were just superior fighters not so much the style but the person. Some people are just better. Ray lewis was one of the best linebackers of all time. Lots of people play the position but he was just better. Not because he trained harder or learned something nobody else knew he just had better instincts and could just see the field differently he was special. I think Gracie in the early UFC was just better he had better instincts and saw openings others may not he was special. For some guys they just have it.
Oh come on now..you know it won't work, because its not on youtube!
Seriously though....isn't it amazing how these things in our art, work well enough, in real world situations, to keep us alive and able to post here.
Just because it's not on YT, just because it's not in competition, doesnt mean that the art is a failure.Agreed.
I wasn't talking about those things, so I'll leave those comments to others.
I will say this though...obviously in training there are things that just can't be practiced, this being one example. I have many Kenpo techs that have a neck or arm break in them. Personally, unless it's really a life and death situation, breaking a neck is hardly warranted over the attacker simply punching you. I can think of numerous other things that I'd do first, before I'd even consider a neck break.Nice clips!! As for Keith...yes, I agree with what you said earlier...def. one of the best, most legit fighters in the early days.
Actually a few legitimate looking holds in there. But I don't believe any are "neck breakers".
Yeah that was some brutal fighting, and no the UFC and Dana's "Ultimate Boxing" is not at all like what it used to be!!!!
True! accused of killing his cell mate while serving 15 yeRs for torture, kidnapping & gang rape.
what did you think of Hackneys fighting style? Footwork, movement, etc?
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
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And Royce was on the Roids for that fight.
Holy ****! The moon and stars really are falling into place..lol...because lately, I've been finding quite a few of your posts that I agree with!
First of all I would like to point out that the term 'dirty tricks' is a term that sport fighters often use to describe some things that are not allowed in their sport. In self defence there are no such things as dirty tricks, only things that need to be done. Dirty tricks are not meant as finishers, there are mainly used as distractions to allow for the use of the finishers or to get away.
Tenacious_Red
Orange Belt
That's what I figured. Yeah, I was talking about SD purposes, not the cage.
Great points. Of course, this isn't to say it's impossible for the striker to learn this. If we use Machida (sp) and Liddell (sp) as examples...we really never saw Chuck on the ground.
You know what also forces grapplers to not crash guard to the clinch? A knife. Paradoxically, a knife also forces grappling. No one wants to get stabbed so a knife will typically force a person to stay out of range, which will be punching range or greater (depending on the knife). However, if the other guy is unarmed and, for whatever reason, has to deal with the guy with the knife, the only way to do it successfully is to gain control of the weapon bearing limb. I.E. "grappling."
And here's another spot were RBSD proponents has it right. Grapplers, just because you don't see a knife doesn't mean he doesn't have a knife. Season with other various weapons to taste.
This crap is way to complex and nuanced for many of the overly simplistic pronouncements I've seen in this thread.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Cant' disagree with that.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
For what it's worth, I agree with you that there are rules, overt or implicit, governing just about ever human interaction. Whether called morality, ethics, rules of engagement, code of conduct, courtesy, respect, by laws or whatever else, everything from saying hello politely to war has rules.
So, while there are rules, I think that a distinction can be seen between "war" and "sport." The stakes are much, much higher in a warzone. In the same way, even a formal duel governed by strict rules has a much higher stake at risk than an MMA match.
I think it goes deeper than just having a backup plan if the "dirty trick" doesn't work. Many of the dirty tricks are lower percentage than some of the other potential responses. So, potentially, a better plan is to learn and use those other responses as a primary plan and save the "dirty tricks" for the backup plan, or maybe even roll the two together.
I remember in the early "Sport Fighter vs. TMA" arguments, I used to see "I'll just eye gouge or nut grab" him a lot as a response to stopping a grappler. The assumption was that a grappler was unaware that EMFG's existed and couldn't use them at all. But the reality is that a person who is conversant with grappling usually ends up in a superior position to not only prevent an EMFG but is actually in a better position to perform one. Basic grappling skills can actually enhance your ability perform "dirty tricks."
That's the point of not relying on "dirty tricks." It's not that they don't deserve a place in your bag-o-tricks, it's that we need to know how to actually use them and, as it turns out, it's not what a lot of us (myself included) believed they were prior to the "Gracie Revolution."
I haven't given up EMFG's or GroinGrabs from my martial list, I just have better ways to more effectively apply them. They're higher percentage techniques now.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
LOL,,,yeah, that's pretty much what I was trying to say.
Thanks for putting my thoughts into the words I was seeking. 
lklawson
Grandmaster
I don't disagree at all. My complaint was with the simplistic statement that rules = game.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
BJJ is a derivative of Judo. It was a student of Kano who moved to Brazil and taught the Gracies. I believe his name was Maeda (?). So it"s not at all surprising that a specific Judo tech would be found in BJJ.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
This is actually proper karate. The curriculum is meant to teach you how the principles work, and what the techniques are. How one actually uses the techniques in application is wide open, only limited by one's imagination and their vision for what is possible. To believe that a common curriculum must have a single application always in agreement with what everyone else is doing, is simply erroneous and illustrates a lack of understanding. The curriculum teaches you some possibilities, not set solutions. It is meant to help you see what is possible, and help you use that vision to be effectively spontaneous. What you do with it is up to you.
this can be a legitimate criticism, but is more appropriately aimed at the individual, or even the instructor or the school. But not the style itself. Anyone, of any style, TMA or MMA or whatever, can bring the training intensity up, and can train realistically. Or not.
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