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True! accused of killing his cell mate while serving 15 yeRs for torture, kidnapping & gang rape.
I remember being taught (by the founder of our school) the first one in the video (the head twist one) at a grading a while back. It would take a large amount of force to break someones neck like that but it is an excellent controlling technique (where the head goes the body follows) and not one you would want to try to resist, you either go down or forget about turning your head left and right for a few weeks.
And Royce was on the Roids for that fight.
Oh please. Stop trying to weasel.
Just man up and admit you were wrong: UFC isn't a "game," it is "real fighting," just fighting with rules. Just like pretty much all "real fighting" has "rules" of some sort.
It is a tournament of real punches, kicks and elbows...but it is a competition of wit, physical endurance and strength--like a game.
you mean like starting the fight standing, then being stood up by a ref mid fight at his discretion, then having the fight stopped for a minute and it restarting on the feet?
If you don't understand how standing up two fighters, one who is primarily a grappler and one who is primary a striker benefits the striker than I believe any amount of factual reasoning will be lost on you.:flushed:
This is highly debatable IMO. Yes sprawling on a shot and then kneeing benefits the striker, but positions like North South and top Side Control would be insanely dangerous as a grappler if knees were allowed, hell even under side control ala Frank Shamrock vs Renzo.
Thoughts?
Obviously 'vague idea' was tongue firmly placed to the outer region of the oral cavity. But 'real' fight still needs to be defined. If by 'real' it is meant to go all out to win a competition, yes it is real. If by 'real' you mean to injure or totally destroy an opponent, perhaps not so real. As I said, it depends on intent.The discussion of deaths is a direct response to what you wrote:
"Mmm! Depends on the intent. There are some rules in conventional warfare. There were rules for duelling. I have a vague idea people died in both. So no, rules don't make it a game, just a very violent sport where the rules favour fighters with certain skills and ban some of the more damaging forms of attack."
Note that you write, "I have a vague idea people died in both." Deaths, as a direct result of the event, occur in all of these. The point is that the answer must be far more nuanced than just "deaths" or, as I think we agree, that the addition of "rules" does not mean it's not a "real fight."
In short, what the Gracies and UFC proved is that fighters need to practice grappling skills and that what grappling skills most fighters thought they possessed were either the wrong skills or not practiced in such a manner as to make them functional for the fighter.
Again they are trying to hurt each other not injure. There is a difference. In a sporting event you want to hurt the guy to win not injure him. If they were trying to cause injury then they suck at it
So may be participation in this thread.
I think it goes deeper than just having a backup plan if the "dirty trick" doesn't work. Many of the dirty tricks are lower percentage than some of the other potential responses. So, potentially, a better plan is to learn and use those other responses as a primary plan and save the "dirty tricks" for the backup plan, or maybe even roll the two together.
I remember in the early "Sport Fighter vs. TMA" arguments, I used to see "I'll just eye gouge or nut grab" him a lot as a response to stopping a grappler. The assumption was that a grappler was unaware that EMFG's existed and couldn't use them at all. But the reality is that a person who is conversant with grappling usually ends up in a superior position to not only prevent an EMFG but is actually in a better position to perform one. Basic grappling skills can actually enhance your ability perform "dirty tricks."
That's the point of not relying on "dirty tricks." It's not that they don't deserve a place in your bag-o-tricks, it's that we need to know how to actually use them and, as it turns out, it's not what a lot of us (myself included) believed they were prior to the "Gracie Revolution."
I haven't given up EMFG's or GroinGrabs from my martial list, I just have better ways to more effectively apply them. They're higher percentage techniques now.
And if you didn't want to, and even if you still wanted to deny the claims, you and your art were probably looked at as being a chicken, to use a more polite word.
Actually a few legitimate looking holds in there. But I don't believe any are "neck breakers".
I remember being taught (by the founder of our school) the first one in the video (the head twist one) at a grading a while back. It would take a large amount of force to break someones neck like that but it is an excellent controlling technique (where the head goes the body follows) and not one you would want to try to resist, you either go down or forget about turning your head left and right for a few weeks.
Exactly!Right not something you can train at full speed. Not something you would use in a comp either
North-South? Maybe dangerous for the bottom man. Side-Control? Same thing. The top man has enough control that he can disengage just enough to put his body into a knee shot. Neither are particularly dangerous for the top man if knee shots are allowed. The bottom man is immobilized on his back and simply can't get his body into throwing knee shots. North-South would be a non-starter for knee shots for the bottom man. Side-Control would allow only comparatively weak knee shots for the bottom man, maybe analogous to a jab (maybe). And if the top man sinks his head down on to the bottom man, then the bottom man is going to be hard pressed to make effective shots. Experiment with it yourself and see.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
I think Gracie in the early UFC was just better he had better instincts and saw openings others may not he was special. For some guys they just have it.
Thanks, yeah that is 100% false IMO. As pure arts go, grappling has been proven time and time again, by a large margin to dominate the striking arts.
Lol, I'm saying Hughes dominated the whole fight, standing and ground and did so even while Royce Gracie cheated by using illegal performance enhancing drugs which makes that do inaction all the more impressive!Are you suggesting that Hughes didn't dominate Gracie in every possible way during that fight, that maybe it was just a lucky punch that took him out?
Now we are back to the OP. It's only taken 89 pages.He knew how to fight and what worked in a fight. No fancy forms and flows for him, just real fighting.
So you don't think shamrock was tried and tested? All of the hard work and trading is part of it but natural ability rises to the top.Thing is, Royce wasn't even in the top 3 or 4 in his family at the time, and here IMO is the big difference, Royce had those qualities over the other fighters because he had to a and tons of real, live combat experience. His ***** was tested and tried and he was battle tested. He knew how to fight and what worked in a fight. No fancy forms and flows for him, just real fighting.
Thanks.
Most fights start standing up. The grapplers strength is to clinch and the strikers objective is yo maintain distance. I would suggest of those two it is easier to achieve the clinch.
True most fights start standing, my problem is the the ref choosing to bring the fight back to the fight whenever he wants and also the fact that there are rounds which also disrupt the grappling and gives the standup guy a free ride back to his feet
I would like to see your reasoning! Wrestling starts standing and judo starts standing. Why is MMA different.
Starting standing is fine, but once the fight hits the ground it should be the fighter who gets himself back up off the mat, not the ref and not the end of a round.
Unless the person shooting is highly trained they are likely to get really badly injured against a reasonably trained martial artist. Ballen's post of Tom Hill demonstrates what I mean.
not sure I remember that one, I will go back and look.
So you don't think shamrock was tried and tested? All of the hard work and trading is part of it but natural ability rises to the top.
Thanks, yeah that is 100% false IMO.
As pure arts go, grappling has been proven time and time again, by a large margin to dominate the striking arts. you take a pure striker vs a pure grappler and the grappler dominates because the striker cannot control the distance and has little to no know leg of the clinch and ground.
again I love striking arts, but they are inferior to grappling arts IMO.
True most fights start standing, my problem is the the ref choosing to bring the fight back to the fight whenever he wants and also the fact that there are rounds which also disrupt the grappling and gives the standup guy a free ride back to his feet
Starting standing is fine, but once the fight hits the ground it should be the fighter who gets himself back up off the mat, not the ref and not the end of a round.
Actually no. It takes little effort to break the neck. There are certain things that I will not post on an open forum that change the dynamic.
This is not the place to discuss the how, but yes, we practise it slowly and carefully.Leverage for one, forcing the neck to move in a way it is not designed another. My point is it would not be very likely for the neck to be broken by moving it in a direction it was designed to do by accident. If it was then there would be a lot more accidental deaths and serious injuries in professional and amateur wrestling. It would definitely not be as easy as it is in the movies. You would have to do it on purpose and with a lot of force. Still something to be carefully practiced though.
Thanks, yeah that is 100% false IMO. As pure arts go, grappling has been proven time and time again, by a large margin to dominate the striking arts.
you take a pure striker vs a pure grappler and the grappler dominates because the striker cannot control the distance and has little to no know leg of the clinch and ground.
again I love striking arts, but they are inferior to grappling arts IMO.