Sparring...what is it and is it worth doing?

[K-man]

Now that things have quietened a little. Some MAs, ie aikido, have very little in the way of 'free' sparring and I would suggest that an aikidoka would be training for many years before that training could be relied upon in a street fight. I've been training aikido for five years now but wouldn't trust it alone. Combined with my karate, great. Hit hard, hit often and if an arm bar happens it happens.

To my mind it is the type of sparring that is important. I have discarded 'point' sparring as irrelevant to 'self defence'. If you're into tournaments then you need to spar that way. However, I don't believe that type of sparring is what guys like Chojun Miyagi had in mind when they were training.

For me, the sparring is continuous and close. We normally practise at less than full speed but it does get willing. Often we will put on full head protection and go a bit harder. Even so, it is still not reality as we generally leave out the 'nasties' such as eye gouges, throat strikes pointy elbows etc.

There are different forms of sparring designed with different purposes in mind. If what you practise works for you in what you want to achieve, then go for it. I can understand where Jason was coming from but I'm not sure it would work for me, but each to their own.

 

[thegatekeeper]

In my opinion, sparring is where the true skills are learned. You learn how to defend, how to dodge, how to hit a moving target, etc. Bag work is use full, but what can you learn in the long run from a stationary target?

 

[Tez3]

Now that things have quietened a little. Some MAs, ie aikido, have very little in the way of 'free' sparring and I would suggest that an aikidoka would be training for many years before that training could be relied upon in a street fight. I've been training aikido for five years now but wouldn't trust it alone. Combined with my karate, great. Hit hard, hit often and if an arm bar happens it happens.

To my mind it is the type of sparring that is important. I have discarded 'point' sparring as irrelevant to 'self defence'. If you're into tournaments then you need to spar that way. However, I don't believe that type of sparring is what guys like Chojun Miyagi had in mind when they were training.

For me, the sparring is continuous and close. We normally practise at less than full speed but it does get willing. Often we will put on full head protection and go a bit harder. Even so, it is still not reality as we generally leave out the 'nasties' such as eye gouges, throat strikes pointy elbows etc.

There are different forms of sparring designed with different purposes in mind. If what you practise works for you in what you want to achieve, then go for it. I can understand where Jason was coming from but I'm not sure it would work for me, but each to their own.

It depends what you train, if you are training people for MMA which Jason said he had, then sparring, freestyle and with a certain amount of contact is necessary if not vital as preparation for that competition. People who enter ski jump competitions for example train by jumping off ski jumps, there's no avoiding it, same as MMA you have to be able to spar. It's like learning to walk before you run. You simply cannot get into the ring/cage, hit and be hit without having learnt to spar first as Jason suggests, it's foolish and dangerous to be honest.

 

[MJS]

Now that things have quietened a little. Some MAs, ie aikido, have very little in the way of 'free' sparring and I would suggest that an aikidoka would be training for many years before that training could be relied upon in a street fight. I've been training aikido for five years now but wouldn't trust it alone. Combined with my karate, great. Hit hard, hit often and if an arm bar happens it happens.

To my mind it is the type of sparring that is important. I have discarded 'point' sparring as irrelevant to 'self defence'. If you're into tournaments then you need to spar that way. However, I don't believe that type of sparring is what guys like Chojun Miyagi had in mind when they were training.

For me, the sparring is continuous and close. We normally practise at less than full speed but it does get willing. Often we will put on full head protection and go a bit harder. Even so, it is still not reality as we generally leave out the 'nasties' such as eye gouges, throat strikes pointy elbows etc.

There are different forms of sparring designed with different purposes in mind. If what you practise works for you in what you want to achieve, then go for it. I can understand where Jason was coming from but I'm not sure it would work for me, but each to their own.

Good post!! Like you said, obviously things have limitations, even working our techniques, but as its been said, sparring is important. IMO, it gives the person a chance to work on a variety of things. Personally, I'm not much for the point sparring, I prefer the continuous.

Like Tez said....I'm not seeing how someone who trains MMA, could possibly not spar.

 

[MJS]

In my opinion, sparring is where the true skills are learned. You learn how to defend, how to dodge, how to hit a moving target, etc. Bag work is use full, but what can you learn in the long run from a stationary target?

Good points! Bagwork, just like doing a technique slow, is good for fine tuning, and refining the basics. IMHO, you need to test yourself, and that test comes in the form of sparring and unscripted techniques.

 

[Chris Parker]

I'm pretty well known here for not being a fan of sparring, really (and, for the record, I use the term to refer to a more "competitive" format, with two people trying to out-perform each other in a similar skillset under known conditions/rules), but that's mainly to do with the aims and requirements of my systems. When looking at sporting systems, such as MMA, I consider sparring to be an absolute necessity. It just comes down to the reasons for the system, and what it needs.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Sparring to me is, like Chris said, a term I refer to only when talking about competive or sport systems. I do not find it an effective means for training self defense in any way as there is a sort of back and forth mentality in sparring as opposed to the attacker defender mentality of self-defense, or even the sense of urgency that must be fostered between mutal combatants who are fighting in a life or death context.

It is absolutely necessary for any competitive format whether it is point sparring, light contact, full contact, or grappling.

 

[Cyriacus]

I consider "Sparring" in a Not-Sport Context to be Unscripted Striking/Grappling Exchange Practice. It has its uses, if its done right.

 

[Aiki Lee]

we simply refer to what we do when it is time to test it as pressure testing or "true" randori. In our school you do the kata, have a cooperative uke and learn the principle. Once you can do it decently you add more and more resistance, then allow uke to counter, then create a situation where there is no defined uke or tori (receiver or applier of technique) and who ever gets to it first "wins". Occassionally we put on head gear, fingerless gloves, and maybe a chest protector to go a little rougher. When we do that we find that people actually attack differently than when doing a scripted drill. Its as though wearing head gear and gloves and what not now makes it"okay" to really try to hit your partner even though that is what they should be doing in the first place anyway.

We don't call it sparring though; even if what I described sounds like what you call sparring, to us it is not because it is not supposed to be competitive. It is supposed to be a learning aid for execution of the technique in a real life context. For us the purpose of the randori is to see not only can you do the technique under pressure but can your tactic beat the other person's tactic.

 

[MJS]

we simply refer to what we do when it is time to test it as pressure testing or "true" randori. In our school you do the kata, have a cooperative uke and learn the principle. Once you can do it decently you add more and more resistance, then allow uke to counter, then create a situation where there is no defined uke or tori (receiver or applier of technique) and who ever gets to it first "wins". Occassionally we put on head gear, fingerless gloves, and maybe a chest protector to go a little rougher. When we do that we find that people actually attack differently than when doing a scripted drill. Its as though wearing head gear and gloves and what not now makes it"okay" to really try to hit your partner even though that is what they should be doing in the first place anyway.

We don't call it sparring though; even if what I described sounds like what you call sparring, to us it is not because it is not supposed to be competitive. It is supposed to be a learning aid for execution of the technique in a real life context. For us the purpose of the randori is to see not only can you do the technique under pressure but can your tactic beat the other person's tactic.

I do this too, in addition to the regular sparring. I think that it can appear to be sparring, as you said, although it isn't. But, I do think that even if the intent isn't to 'spar' per se, it could turn into that, if the original goal isn't kept in mind. That goal being to simply pressure test your techinques.

 

[jasonbrinn]

Looks like he got scared, or decided to take his little red wagon somewhere else to play........

........my guess is, we'll never hear from him again.

:lfao:

Scared of what? teh internet. No sir, I am not scared.

What's the point of continuing to post when people just attack you personally because they don't like your opinions. Not to mention people posting false accusations and bad information....such as

elder999 posted a quote about Jackson's dorm rooms being free - well maybe they are/were but they sure charged us $500/month when our guy was there so what does this quote do other than try to cast doubt on the statements I made.

I plainly stated my belief - sparring sucks, I stated why I believe in it "trash in trash out", I gave examples of scenarios where I had tested my theory and the results. What happened - people posted links to crappy false web forums spewing lies about me and then people here treated me with not much more respect.

If I stand alone I stand alone - I am not going to compromise my beliefs or the TRUTH to fit in and have people like me. I don't lie and everything I have said is the truth and verifiable.

At the end of the day, who wants to play in any sandbox where kids insist on throwing sand in your face.

 

[Tez3]

Jason, you didn't actually post any proof that your experiments actually showed that sparring 'sucks', you haven't given us anything to go on other than you insisting what you are saying is true. You must see that without anything to go on we have to go with what we know works. Your saying 'well I'm right and you'll have to take my word for it' isn't going to cut it. I for one don't know you from Adam, disregarding anything form anywhere else I don't honestly know if you are a martial artist even, I'm sure you are but can you see our difficulties in believing what you are saying? You won't say who your fighter is, where he fought and against whom, you won't give us any factual evidence to prove what you are saying works. If I said I was a fighter with an unbeaten record of 25-0-0 but refused to give you my name, where I fought and on what promotions and I did it entirely on a diet of bananas and nothing else would you believe it because I wrote it on here?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

If I claimed that I had inherited the grandmastership of an obscure and ancient ninjutsu ryu at the age of eighteen from an old Japanese man who was the janitor at my high school and taught me in secret because he admired my fighting spirit, then everyone here would laugh at me unless I could provide some really compelling evidence. This is because such a story would fly in the face of what is known about traditional Japanese martial arts in general and ninjutsu in particular by those who study such arts.

If I claimed that my tameshiwari was so powerful that I could break a Chevy engine block in two with a downward elbow strike and chop down an oak tree with my knife hand, then everyone here would laugh at me unless I could provide a demonstration. That's because such feats are not humanly possible according to what we know about the limits of the human body.

If I claimed that I trained students to compete in MMA and BJJ and those students were successful and won championships against tough competition without ever sparring or rolling in their training, then no one here would believe me unless I could provide names, dates, and events and that information could be independently verified. That is because MMA and BJJ, as well as Judo, Boxing, and Muay Thai, all require some form of sparring or randori as part of the training regimen for success. There is no one competing in the UFC who has not spent a lot of time sparring. There is no one competing at high levels in Judo or BJJ who has not spent a lot of time doing randori. Everyone who trains seriously in those arts knows the difference that time spent with sparring/randori makes. If I want to claim that I've discovered an approach to training which allows practitioners to skip all the pain and risk of sparring but still win in competition, then the burden is on me to provide some serious evidence.

BTW, Jason, I notice that now you are claiming not only to have trained this one MMA competitor to a championship without sparring, but also to have trained a number of BJJ competitors to compete successfully without rolling. Once again, I'd need verifiable names, dates, events to believe a word of that. I've spent a fair amount of time in BJJ and I've never seen anyone accomplish much of anything in the art without a significant investment of time in rolling. Cooperative drilling is important, but it can't be everything.

 

[elder999]

After conversations on another thread http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...-open-sparring-sessions&p=1452542#post1452542, thought a new thread on what sparring is, how we do it and whether it's worth doing would be in order. I'll let others start off lol!

Well, alrighty then.

I'll reserve my answer to the whole "what is sparring," thing for now-as for "is it worth doing?" I'd answer,Yes, if done with proper coaching and supervision-but that shouldn't be a surprise.

So, as far as “free-sparring” goes, proper coaching and supervision are necessary-precisely for the reasons that Jason thinks “sparring sucks.” The popular saying is that Practice makes permanent,\ and perfect practice makes perfect. Inasmuch as is feasible, it is absolutely necessary for combat sports, and a good tool for a variety of self-defense scenarios and other martial art forms-though not the be all an end all, and not practicable for a variety of methods. With that said, traditional jujutsu forms and their corollaries drill without free sparring, and sometimes without even moderate judo randori. Likewise, free sparring wasn’t always a part of traditional karate, and there are traditionalists who manage to do without it. Indeed, I learned and teach Miyama ryu jujutsu with the same sort of training that Mr. Brinn is describing, and people have used its methods for self-defense quite successfully for decades-myself included. Karate’s one step and three step sparring are great for learning timing tai sabaki and ma-ai, and can be done with a variety of tempos and “scripts.”

Competing in a free-form format, though? Not without sparring-not very likely, anyway.

Scared of what? teh internet. No sir, I am not scared.

Heheh….:lfao:

What's the point of continuing to post when people just attack you personally because they don't like your opinions. Not to mention people posting false accusations and bad information....such as
elder999 posted a quote about Jackson's dorm rooms being free - well maybe they are/were but they sure charged us $500/month when our guy was there so what does this quote do other than try to cast doubt on the statements I made.

MartialTalk has a policy against fraud busting, Jason-we’re not Bullshido, and, frankly, I don’t care if you’re lying or not.

How do you tell a liar, though? He constantly screams that he’s “telling the truth,” rather than simply show the facts of what he has to say and letting them stand.

If I stand alone I stand alone - I am not going to compromise my beliefs or the TRUTH to fit in and have people like me. I don't lie and everything I have said is the truth and verifiable.

Example-you say some as yet unnamed so and so stayed at Jackson’s back in 2009 for $500 a month. I post a magazine article that says that the rooms were free back then. I didn’t make the claim, and I didn’t write the article. The article makes no mention of you, and wasn't directed at you-it merely states a fact, an observation that runs counter to the information you’ve offered.

Another example-I say that I’ve trained in so and such a martial art, like…I dunno, Miyama ryu jujutsu-I say when and where, and who my teachers were, and what my rank was. And I post the http://miyamaryu.org/blackbelts.html Miyama ryu webpage registry of black belts, and , yup-there’s my name. People on this board know me from back in the 80's and 90's, before "teh internet," sort of. People know me from tournaments back then, and know who my teachers were-people know who I am, and have an idea of what I do for a living, where I went to school, what I used to do, etc., etc., etc.-but, most especially in regard to martial arts, they have an idea of who I am, and-more imporatantly-that I am who I say I am. If I speak with any authority on any of a variety of subjects, well, they know where I'm coming from-from whence that authority emerges-and can deal with me from there.

You, on the other hand, appear to have trained with a who’s who of “never heard of him.”

Interestingly, you also failed to quote or answer my question:

I have a question for Jason, though-Jason, how is your "scripted sparring" any different from ippon kumite, sanbon kumite and kiso kumite?

Or even gohon kumite?

which was, after all, an attempt to play nice on my part-to engage with you and not throw sand in your face.

 

[jasonbrinn]

MartialTalk has a policy against fraud busting, Jason-we’re not Bullshido, and, frankly, I don’t care if you’re lying or not.

How do you tell a liar, though? He constantly screams that he’s “telling the truth,” rather than simply show the facts of what he has to say and letting them stand.

For someone who doesn't care about me you sure go out of your way to try and make me look bad here...?

I was stating my belief in a concept - I offered my data merely to suggest that it wasn't just an idea I had driving home one day but something I tested out. I don't need to prove the system to anyone, myself and my group already have that. I already said I wasn't giving names on here especially seeing how people with different ideas can be treated. I mean I could put up a website in 10 seconds saying MJS is a fraud and then come here and simply post a link and say AH HA what does this mean and leave the shadow of doubt out there - how irresponsible and lacking of integrity that would be though.

I have even stated in conclusion that I understood no one believing it and how unfair it was that I won't put up my data and apologized. But that wasn't good enough for you sir - you had to taunt me and try to tarnish me more by saying I was scared and you probably wouldn't hear from me again as if that would have justified any of your shortsighted and malformed opinions of me.

Example-you say some as yet unnamed so and so stayed at Jackson’s back in 2009 for $500 a month. I post a magazine article that says that the rooms were free back then. I didn’t make the claim, and I didn’t write the article. The article makes no mention of you, and wasn't directed at you-it merely states a fact, an observation that runs counter to the information you’ve offered.

What do you want, the receipts? Anyone can find an article anywhere just about to support anything. Is this what you consider research? Funny how someone who states he doesn't care has time to google for article quotes to cast doubt but not enough follow through to get real results. You said you could make a phone call - I gave you the exact dates and amounts paid and you already know that the fighter came from Raleigh NC and you can't get this verified? Strange my friend, strange.

Another example-I say that I’ve trained in so and such a martial art, like…I dunno, Miyama ryu jujutsu-I say when and where, and who my teachers were, and what my rank was. And I post the Miyama ryu webpage registry of black belts, and , yup-there’s my name. People on this board know me from back in the 80's and 90's, before "teh internet," sort of. People know me from tournaments back then, and know who my teachers were-people know who I am, and have an idea of what I do for a living, where I went to school, what I used to do, etc., etc., etc.-but, most especially in regard to martial arts, they have an idea of who I am, and-more imporatantly-that I am who I say I am. If I speak with any authority on any of a variety of subjects, well, they know where I'm coming from-from whence that authority emerges-and can deal with me from there.
You, on the other hand, appear to have trained with a who’s who of “never heard of him.”

FACT: NO ONE that I have ever stated that I trained with has denied it. So, elder999whatever, where do you draw these false and slanderous claims? Don't you have anything better to do than make half accusations based on NO research at the expense of honest people like myself?

Interestingly, you also failed to quote or answer my question:



which was, after all, an attempt to play nice on my part-to engage with you and not throw sand in your face.

What we do is different. It is really just drilling with a partner. The types of training you mentioned are much more rigid in form than ours. It would seem the concepts and reasons for doing them are very similar however.

Look - I don't know why you attack me but can;t it just stop. I don't have a problem with you or anyone on this site. It was an idea that I was sharing nothing more. If you don't like me than fine - I can't change that. If you want to talk and get ALL of my references and numbers than fine - I already gave you my email and phone number plus you could PM me if you want to. I HAVE trained with everyone I say I have and I have done EXACTLY what I say I have. If you care to know the truth then try talking to the person you question.

It looks like we have more in common than not. My first art was Kyokushin and I have a 2nd dan in Daito-ryu. Why couldn't we just be friends and agree to disagree about how to train? My teachers;

Kenny Buffaloe (kyokushin karate / muay thai)
James Dozia (karate - where I got my 3rd dan)
Brent Angell (shorinji ryu / tai chi chuan)
Duncan Leung (wing chun)
Bill McGrath (pekiti-tirsia through seminars)
Carlos Machado (bjj through seminars - association member in the past)
Carlos Lemos (bjj - direct classes)
Seigo Okamoto (daito ryu - i got my 2nd from him directly - through seminars as he lives in Tokyo - 99% train this way)

I am leaving some out but these are the major contributors to me.

 

[MJS]

Well, I still stand by what I said earlier....sparring, while not the end all/be all, BUT, I still feel that it has its values. IMO, its just one way to test your stuff. Yes, we can pressure test our empty hand stand up techniques without sparring, but as I said, that can easily become sparring, if you're not careful. Nonetheless, I still maintain that unscripted training is key.

 

[elder999]

What we do is different. It is really just drilling with a partner. The types of training you mentioned are much more rigid in form than ours. It would seem the concepts and reasons for doing them are very similar however.
.

Care to expand on this? "Different" how? "Much more rigid" how? They certainly can be done at any pace and level of intention or contact-so, if the concepts and reasons for doing them are very similar, and they're 'scripted training," how is your "just drilling" less rigid and different?

 

[Cyriacus]

For someone who doesn't care about me you sure go out of your way to try and make me look bad here...?

I was stating my belief in a concept - I offered my data merely to suggest that it wasn't just an idea I had driving home one day but something I tested out. I don't need to prove the system to anyone, myself and my group already have that. I already said I wasn't giving names on here especially seeing how people with different ideas can be treated. I mean I could put up a website in 10 seconds saying MJS is a fraud and then come here and simply post a link and say AH HA what does this mean and leave the shadow of doubt out there - how irresponsible and lacking of integrity that would be though.

I have even stated in conclusion that I understood no one believing it and how unfair it was that I won't put up my data and apologized. But that wasn't good enough for you sir - you had to taunt me and try to tarnish me more by saying I was scared and you probably wouldn't hear from me again as if that would have justified any of your shortsighted and malformed opinions of me.


What do you want, the receipts? Anyone can find an article anywhere just about to support anything. Is this what you consider research? Funny how someone who states he doesn't care has time to google for article quotes to cast doubt but not enough follow through to get real results. You said you could make a phone call - I gave you the exact dates and amounts paid and you already know that the fighter came from Raleigh NC and you can't get this verified? Strange my friend, strange.



FACT: NO ONE that I have ever stated that I trained with has denied it. So, elder999whatever, where do you draw these false and slanderous claims? Don't you have anything better to do than make half accusations based on NO research at the expense of honest people like myself?


What we do is different. It is really just drilling with a partner. The types of training you mentioned are much more rigid in form than ours. It would seem the concepts and reasons for doing them are very similar however.

Look - I don't know why you attack me but can;t it just stop. I don't have a problem with you or anyone on this site. It was an idea that I was sharing nothing more. If you don't like me than fine - I can't change that. If you want to talk and get ALL of my references and numbers than fine - I already gave you my email and phone number plus you could PM me if you want to. I HAVE trained with everyone I say I have and I have done EXACTLY what I say I have. If you care to know the truth then try talking to the person you question.

It looks like we have more in common than not. My first art was Kyokushin and I have a 2nd dan in Daito-ryu. Why couldn't we just be friends and agree to disagree about how to train? My teachers;

Kenny Buffaloe (kyokushin karate / muay thai)
James Dozia (karate - where I got my 3rd dan)
Brent Angell (shorinji ryu / tai chi chuan)
Duncan Leung (wing chun)
Bill McGrath (pekiti-tirsia through seminars)
Carlos Machado (bjj through seminars - association member in the past)
Carlos Lemos (bjj - direct classes)
Seigo Okamoto (daito ryu - i got my 2nd from him directly - through seminars as he lives in Tokyo - 99% train this way)

I am leaving some out but these are the major contributors to me.

Pro Tip: Because Youre implying that other methods are inferior instead of just stating a preference.
Also, I want zero part in this discussion

 

[Buka]

There's a whole lot I don't know about martial arts. There's a whole lot I'll probably never have time to learn. But I do know one thing. If you don't have free sparring, martial arts ain't worth squat.

 

[Chris Parker]

Seigo Okamoto (daito ryu - i got my 2nd from him directly - through seminars as he lives in Tokyo - 99% train this way)

Hi Jason,

Not really wanting to get into the rest of this, but I am interested in your Daito Ryu training. Am I right in reading this as saying that your only Daito Ryu training is at seminars, rather than a more formal, regular training? And you were awarded Nidan for that? And, knowing that each different line of Daito Ryu has different ranking requirements, what was needed for Nidan for yourself?

There's a whole lot I don't know about martial arts. There's a whole lot I'll probably never have time to learn. But I do know one thing. If you don't have free sparring, martial arts ain't worth squat.

Now, that depends entirely on what the art is teaching, and why and how. None of the systems I train in have sparring as part of their training methodology, and they are about as serious a "martial art" as you can find, and many old systems are the same. I'd also argue strongly against it's usability or necessity for self defence. However, if the art is geared towards sporting applications or similar, then it's indispensable. It just comes down to context and usage, really.

But to say that "if there isn't free sparring, martial arts ain't worth squat" can be taken as offensively inaccurate. Maybe your art, but not all martial arts. That just needed to be said, really.