Sparring

[Astra]

yilisifu:Agreed. Learning a whole new art(Wing Chun) for the past 5 months, I can only say that I am somehow beginning to grasp the concept the techniques that are beeing taught to me, and am far from "doing them as I should be." Even extremely simple ones, like Pak-Sao which is just basically "extending the arm out"

 

[yilisifu]

Repetition is the mother of learning, Astra. I laugh and tell my newer students not to worry; in 10 years they won't even have to think about how to do it.....

 

[fissure]

Repetition is the mother of learning, Astra. I laugh and tell my newer students not to worry; in 10 years they won't even have to think about how to do it.....

This is the key, I think. Being able to respond with a particular tech. or even a certain avenue of action without the need to think it through first.
Remember when you learnt to drive? The basics were developed quickly, but it takes considerable time for it to become second nature.

 

[J-kid]

Hey yilisifu i thought you where joking because it said JK (i thought meaning Just kidding).

But please do tell me some of them names of the people you defeat and what art there are how big and strong and how old there where, Also how long they have been in martial arts.

 

[fissure]

how big and strong and how old there where, Also how long they have been in martial arts.

Hey Judo-kid, you bring up an interesting issue. In other threads there has been put forth the idea of you sparring with other members of this board. These i think, are grown men. I try not to bring up your age when ever possible, but I know that most guys are not full grown at your age. This begs the question - how big and strong are you? Are you in a position to go up against guys 10 or 15 yrs. older than you? I meen no offence with this.

 

[chufeng]

JudoKid...

YiLiSifu competed back in the 60s and 70s...MMA back then was frowned upon...Tradition was the key...BUT, these young upstarts, the MMA folks wanted to make a name for themselves...and they did...and they beat a lot of good folks who, unfortunately, did not train in the same tradition as YiLiSifu...

Because YiLiSifu often would compete in a tournament organized and run by these folks, he rarely would win on points...(MMA gets point for illegal contact...traditional MA guy gets points taken away for same conduct) instead, he would take the disqualification and knock the silly guy right out of the ring. Bowing to the referee and judges he would accept defeat as the MMA friends would be helping the guy out of the tangle of chairs and back to his feet.

So, since you are so interested in names...who have you beaten lately?

:asian:
chufeng

 

[chufeng]

Fissure wrote:

"Are you in a position to go up against guys 10 or 15 yrs. older than you?"

Try 30 years older...and fat...and arthritic...and willing, regardless.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[fissure]

Maybe he will bring you some Tiger Balm, if he comes down to train!

 

[yilisifu]

Aside from competition, I also foolishly engaged in challenge matches in my younger years. There were no rules. No padded rings with roped off sides. No protective gear of any kind. It was an actual fight (although some other person often acted as a referee of sorts, in case things got too wild).

Names? I don't remember. Ages? My age and several years older (at the time) which means from about 20 to 30. Size? Some were rather small and others were rather large. Some had really big mouths but small skill.
Most of them had trained in martial arts for quite some time. Several years, anyway. We didn't bother to exchange that kind of information prior to trying to bash each other's faces.

Things were very different in the martial arts back in the 60's and even the 70's. Protective gear hadn't been invented, so all fighting was bare-knuckled. No one was sure what "light contact" meant and a lot of people got hurt. Some critically. A handful were killed (very bad for the arts in those days). Broken bones were fairly common as were faces that looked like they'd been struck with a hammer.

Things have improved in competitive fighting since those days. But training back then was very rigorous and also very traditional. People took their training very seriously and trained very hard, doing exactly what their teachers told them to do.
Challenge matches don't happen anymore; not like they used to. People discovered lawyers and lawyers discovered lawsuits...and that pretty well put an end to it. And I think that's a good thing, too.

The point is that I fought people trained in various martial arts; from judo and jujutsu to various forms of karate and even some kung-fu (which was rare in those days) as well as western boxers. And I am here to say that REAL traditional martial arts work.
Much of what passes nowadays for traditional martial arts, isn't. Traditional martial arts training is very serious and extremely rigorous. Sometimes brutal. No point-sparring. No hand or foot pads. If you puke, you clean it up. If you bleed, you clean it up.
It is highly disciplined (THAT'S the key). And that's how I train my students today.

 

[JDenz]

To the guys challanging Judo-kid if you were as pure and unemotional in your posts as you claim to be you guys wouldn't be challanging Judo. You guys have a liftime of experance on him. That would be like a profighter challanging a blue belt. If you won would that give you alot of satisfaction. If you have een training 20 years why don't you challange someon like Matt Hume, Baroni, Coleman.

 

[fissure]

To the guys challanging Judo-kid if you were as pure and unemotional in your posts as you claim to be you guys wouldn't be challanging Judo.

Who challenged Judo-Kid? Yiliquan1 offered him the chance to train with him and his class in another thread. Judo-kid said he would consider it if they could spar.
The banter here has centered on MMA vs. TMA in general - maybe I missed something?

 

[yilisifu]

I don't see where any challenges have been issued by anyone here.

 

[Matt Stone]

I, for one, haven't challenged him. I'm not sure anyone else has, either.

I offered him the chance to come and hang out with our training group, to participate, to see how a TMA group trains and practices. All of this for no other reason than to allow him the first hand opportunity to gain information he has yet to acquire from any other source than folks in his school, his teacher, and others that hold the same preconceptions he holds.

I thought that MMA was a load of manure until I met the guy that taught me Modern Arnis. After talking with him, learning what he was about, what he thought about training (which, to my surprise, was far closer to TMA party line than I would have thought possible), and what he was able to do, I gained a new found respect for MMA in general - as long as it is approached correctly.

Judo-kid is just that - a kid. I wouldn't challenge a child. Hell, I won't challenge an adult (for ethical, moral, and legal reasons) either. I just wanted to have a friendly exchance of information, from a senior student to a junior student. Mutual information exchange, mutual benefit. Then Judo-kid got a little big for his britches. Whatever.

I doubted he would come in the first place, and his comments and behavior lately have reinforced my belief that he never had any intention to do so. I think it goes a long way toward shedding light on his real intentions. If he was all about training, no matter the source, then he would have taken the opportunity. The offer is still there (for anyone that wants to take it - we won't turn anyone away) for what it is worth. But he seems to think that I am the one with a need to prove myself.

Again, whatever.

Today is my victory over my self of yesterday. Tomorrow is my victory over lesser men (because I have endured and lasted another day). That is the challenge I take up, not whether I can beat a given person on a given day...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[yilisifu]

Very well put.

No one denies the effectiveness of Mixed Martial Arts; but many of us will insist that traditional martial arts are every bit as effective today as they were centuries ago.

And it comes down to WHY each of us trains in martial arts. If it's all about fighting, then we're wasting our time; a shotgun is more effective than any punch or takedown can ever be.

But if we're interested in improving ourselves and learning more about who and what we are, then let's keep training. To master ourselves...not to defeat others.

:asian:

 

[chufeng]

No challenges...just opportunities...

I've got nothing to prove...I'm 45, fat, gray, balding, and arthritic...
Why would I challenge a strong, energetic, robust youngster?

It seems that the challenge is:

Does JudoKid want to learn what real traditional martial arts are like? Or, does he want to continue to bad-mouth them with no first-hand knowledge of what they entail...

If the former, good for him; if the latter, how sad.

That's all...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[J-kid]

Like i said you come down and just try my school i will try yours.

In good faith i will go to your school first.

Anyhow what do you have to fear from a youngster like me, Maybe perhaps i can teach you somthing TO

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Judo-kid
Like i said you come down and just try my school i will try yours.

In good faith i will go to your school first.

Anyhow what do you have to fear from a youngster like me, Maybe perhaps i can teach you somthing TO

Like it or not, you're putting a condition on the invitation given to
you FIRST. The polite MANLY thing to do is to go there first. Be
a man.

 

[TkdWarrior]

Yiliquan very well put
i for the one never want to miss an oppurtunity to train the traditional way... there's not much traditional school around my place there was one in aikido n i enjoyed learnt lot about aikido...
-TkdWarrior-

 

[Matt Stone]

When I was living in Japan, I had the opportunity to train with a teacher who had inherited his sword style from his father, who learned it while assigned to the Emperor's Imperial Guards...

I squandered that opportunity because I was busy with other things.

Eventually, I went to train in his karate style, which I found out later was really only Shotokan with a dab of Muay Thai and Kyokushin (not that that should take away from what he did).

I loved his dojo - the Spirit Dojo - because of its spirit. Very traditional, but very much alive and reactive to changes in real life...

Later, I came across a guy (Martial Talk's very own RyuShiKan) I knew had a good background, but I wasn't too sure about what he could do or how he would teach. I trained with him once and was hooked from the get go. Again, very traditional, but alive.

So what, right?

I didn't enjoy either of the training opportunities so much so because of what they taught (because in both cases it was very similar to what I had already done), but because of how they taught it.

Judo-kid's background in training would, very likely, have a lot to do with the influences he was subjected to when he first started. I was lucky in that my teacher, YiLiSifu, instilled in me a respect for what had gone before while maintaining an eye toward how it would stay alive and real. It is entirely possible that Judo-kid's dislike for TMA stems from either his teacher or senior students that he respected. With no information to allow him to objectively decide, that would be the only explanation I could see.

If he comes out, fine. If not, fine. I will continue to train either way...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[chufeng]

Anyhow what do you have to fear from a youngster like me, Maybe perhaps i can teach you somthing TO

Maybe you can teach me something new...I'm more than willing to learn...

...and, I have NOTHING to fear from a youngster...
the worst thing that could happen is that you hit me real hard in a vital point and I die...so what? If you learn something from that...it may well have been worth it...

On the other hand, I will NOT hit you on a vital point...
I will allow you many openings to attack to...
...and I won't make you suffer beyond your ability to endure it.

OK??!!

But really, we'll just have a good time...
We'll sweat and work on traditional stuff...and you'll have something to base your "opinions" on.

:asian:
chufeng