Sparring

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Judo-kid
Like i said you come down and just try my school i will try yours.

Why do I need to try your school? I have nothing to prove, neither to you nor myself... I have trained in both traditional and non-traditional arts... Have you? Your judo background seems to smack less of tradition and more of modern competitive combat sport, so I don't really count it as "traditional," even though judo is often considered a traditional Japanese art.

In good faith i will go to your school first.

Or don't. You are the one that has painted yourself into a corner. If you do show up someday, it will speak volumes about your intentions. If you don't come, that will speak volumes that are just as loud. Either way, no skin off my nose, no sweat off my... back.

Anyhow what do you have to fear from a youngster like me, Maybe perhaps i can teach you somthing TOO

I implied early on that that may well be the case. Confucius made it clear to his students to search out those who could teach them, those who could show them something they did not already know. He said that in every three men, one was a fool who should not be trafficked with. One was a peer who could help in the development of what was already known. The third was a teacher, since he would know more than you.

I know which one I am. Which one are you?

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[SMAC]

I keep reading page one of an interesting thread but when i look at the last few entries its often so far removed from the original theme that i don't bother.
Anyway, sparring!
I like sparring. At my club we do many different forms of sparring. Hands only, legs only, Left side attacks only, right side attaks only, One person attacks(the other just blocks), Judo-style, ground-work, light continuous, point scoring, medium or heavy contact, fully padded up or no pads.
Variety is the spice of life.

 

[Zujitsuka]

I like sparring. It lets me know what I need to work on. Hey, a heavy bag doesn't hit back.

Everyone seems to have a plan - until they get hit. In my humble opinion, if you say you're training for self defense and you don't train hard contact with resisting opponents, you're fooling yourself. An uke is just like a heavy bag - he/she doesn't hit back and is very compliant and predictable.

Another benefit of sparring is that you learn not freak out when you get hit. You just roll with it, give as good as you got, and just keep it moving. Sparring causes an adrenaline rush - nothing like the dump you'll get in a real fight though. However, operating under this adrenaline rush, will help you to better appreciate how your motor skills are not as sharp as they were before the sparring. You also learn to appreciate that eye pokes and such are not necessarily that easy. I always wondered how someone was going to eye jab someone when the can't even punch them in the face with a big boxing glove.

BTW, I train in Jujutsu and Western Boxing. I find them complimentary. My 'tai-sababki' has been greatly improved since I've incorporated some Boxing's principles, and vice versa.

Train hard and kick butt.

Peace & blessings,

 

[fissure]

I always wondered how someone was going to eye jab someone when the can't even punch them in the face with a big boxing glove.

I think that when this refered to it is most often in the context of a grappling situation. Biting/scratching/poking opponents would certainly add to the difficulty of locking in a choke or joint manipulation!

 

[Zujitsuka]

I was just being faceitous fissure. But really though, I know a lot of guys who say, "If someone tried to punch me, I'd just side-step them and poke them in the eye." The chances of someone who doesn't spar getting the timing and distancing down pat to pull this off are very, very slim.

Peace,

 

[KennethKu]

besides, the guy is getting punched 20 times before he can even finish saying, "If someone tried to punch me, I'd just side-step them and poke them in the eye."

How often in a real fight where you get a clean one, two punch, back and forth? The guy will try to jump onto you and plummet you to a pulp ASAP. A lot of MAists got overwhelmed in a real fight.

Should watch the clip where WC great William Cheung got jumped and plummeted while on the ground. Kind of sad for me to watch, as I am partial to WC fighting concepts which form JKD fighting concepts. But it does highlight a couple of things. 1. Don't turn your back to your adversaries. 2. Always be vigilant. 3 Practice ground fighting.

 

[bart]

Should watch the clip where WC great William Cheung got jumped and plummeted while on the ground

It's a little unfair to say it that way. Cheung was in a foreign country in a peaceful situation teaching a seminar when somebody he didn't know came in and began shouting at him in a language he didn't understand. Then the person left and Cheung went back to teaching in a peaceful situation and a few seconds later he was tackled mid sentence from behind by that same guy. No good punches were thrown on either side. Nothing really landed with any force. He actually defended himself ok for being attacked by someone half his age. He was just on the bottom. If you watch the video again, Cheung had clear lines to Boztepe's face where the only technique he could have thrown were finger jabs to the eyes and throat. But he didn't. Whether that was out of panic or reserve, I'll never know.

1. Don't turn your back to your adversaries. 2. Always be vigilant. 3 Practice ground fighting.

I agree that we train to be able to defend ourselves in any situation, but self defense in the physical sense is for the most part damage control. Hopefully you can do enough damage while not getting damaged that much to protect yourself.

But when you are teaching MA's (as Cheung was during that seminar) often you have to let your vigilence down. For instance I used to not wear a cup in class because I thought it developed the bad habit of not protecting your groin. But then I began to teach kids and I had to let my guard down some, to teach technique and occasionally while I was working with one 8 year old, I'd get nailed by another accidentally. The same went for teaching adults. I think you have to look at the framework of the situation before you cite a confrontation like that as a demonstration of an MAist getting overwhelmed.

Kind of sad for me to watch, as I am partial to WC fighting concepts which form JKD fighting concepts.

If you disparage Cheung then you still shouldn't be sad watching it as Emin Boztepe is a skilled WC(VT) guy too.

 

[J-kid]

BIting scratching and eye gougeing really over rated.

You will find it will be hard to do on a experience grappler for these resons.

1.He is moving fast.
2 You are trying to keep balanced(if already on ground then trying to not get pinned up)
3 He can do it back to you and since your in his ball park he can do it much more and worse.
4 you might be giving him a submission by sticking those arms out
5 A good fighter will not be dazed by Scratching or Biting,
6 The eye gouging is hard to do on someone who is shifting around you as you roll.
7 Good well rounded grapplers will defend once you do get a eye hook in.
8 you will be trying to stand or doing somthing else and wont wont to confront a grappler ON THE GROUND.

 

[KennethKu]

Actually I have a lot of respect for William Cheung. He is well liked and is a well respected WC master. He is also an accomplished man outside the world of MA.

My point was, when you get jumped, irrespective of the circumstances, unpleasant things can and do happen to you. The issue is not why he got jumped or whether he should have done this or that. It is simply he got jumped and ended on the floor with the other guy ontop and throwing punches at his head. He wasn't injured. Boztepe most likely just wanted to humiliate him. (He could have done a flying side kick to Cheung's back, if he was going for broke.) (Of course Cheung would not have anticipated someone would stoop this low. But it happened.)

I said it was sad for me to watch, b/c 2 WC guys ended up in such situation. Yip Man would have been proud.

 

[Master of Blades]

Didnt take long for this to become a muddle of Challenges and so forth :shrug:

 

[JDenz]

Judo I agree witheverything but number 5. Even an experianced grappler will be hurt when he gets poked in the eye.

How many times to you see some one get poked on accident and have to stop the match. While I agree in a street situation you wouldn't stop like that but even so it will affect the way you fight. Eye poking and biting and stuff like that are not the end all bee all they are made out to be by some of the real real TMA guys that don't train on the ground at all that say an eye poke or bite can let them get out. But they are efective and will always be.

 

[J-kid]

I agree to some point but this may just make them more angry then anything else.

 

[J-kid]

Also if you read number 5 carfully i said ( Scratching or Biting) i did not add in eye poking because a agree with you to a point.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Judo-kid
BIting scratching and eye gougeing really over rated.

Sounds like someone that hasn't really been bitten, clawed, skin-grabbed or had their eyes gouged properly... But then, with the lack of realistic approach to many MMA stylists' training (i.e. sport and competition oriented), these things may not come up as often as in a TMA setting where the training is intended not to win a title but to save a life...

You will find it will be hard to do on a experience grappler for these resons.

1.He is moving fast.
2 You are trying to keep balanced(if already on ground then trying to not get pinned up)
3 He can do it back to you and since your in his ball park he can do it much more and worse.
4 you might be giving him a submission by sticking those arms out
5 A good fighter will not be dazed by Scratching or Biting,
6 The eye gouging is hard to do on someone who is shifting around you as you roll.
7 Good well rounded grapplers will defend once you do get a eye hook in.
8 you will be trying to stand or doing somthing else and wont wont to confront a grappler ON THE GROUND.

My favorite is #5... When someone is missing an ear, a lump of skin and meat (not a love nibble, mind you, but a bite that'd take a leg off a Thanksgiving turkey), or a digit, I suspect they will back off a tad no matter how tough they fancy themselves to be.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[bart]

BIting scratching and eye gougeing really over rated...grappler for these resons.

Just raising some questions:

1.He is moving fast.

He's also expecting you to stay in once place or backstep, but usually not to sidestep or jump/dive out of the way.

2 You are trying to keep balanced(if already on ground then trying to not get pinned up)

A lunge is usually an off balance and committed move. The Experienced Grappler (EG) is trained to compensate, but should the target not be in place when the EG gets there, he's got to recover and that takes time.

3 He can do it back to you and since your in his ball park he can do it much more and worse.

Generally NHB/Pride/UFC type fighters train to do legal moves. They can improvise, but they're not trained to do it reflexively. In this it depends more on the individual than the style.

4 you might be giving him a submission by sticking those arms out

True, but a striker is trained to strike quickly and you have to admit, it's hard to catch a non-committed motion, especially if you're trying to seize the limb that's moving. If a seize is missed, it very likely opens up another gouge which my bite harder.

5 A good fighter will not be dazed by Scratching or Biting,

That's like saying a good fighter will not be dazed by seeing his ear in your mouth or will not be dazed by a good gouge to the sac. It depends where the gouge, scratch, or bite is. If you have a death grip with your teeth on a guy's nose, chances are it will faze them. When people see damage to themselves, they panic, especially if they know it has something to do with that greasy wetness pooling where their ear used to be.

6 The eye gouging is hard to do on someone who is shifting around you as you roll.

Realistically, shifting around as you roll is hard to do on pavement, stairs, and uneven ground. Eye gouging penetrates the same holes as punching, which your NHB heros seem to have little trouble doing to each other.

7 Good well rounded grapplers will defend once you do get a eye hook in.

EG's will defend against hits period. Experienced strikers will do the same. But a gouge to the eye will always get their attention. Sometimes it will make them react quicker and turn their fight ON. But others will panic, which I think to generally be the case. It depends on the individual and the framework of the injury. One thing to remember is that if they can't see you, you have a better chance of getting away or attacking them when they can't defend, EG or not.

8 you will be trying to stand or doing somthing else and wont wont to confront a grappler ON THE GROUND.

If you're not an EG, you DON'T want to confront an EG on the ground. That's a fact. Don't fight an enemy where the enemy has the advantage. Grapplers took the fight to the ground, because they didn't want to be in a striking game, where the enemy was strong. It's the same principle, just applied in a different manner. It goes both ways.

True fact, NHB training is for a ring against someone who wants to fight you. That makes the framework of the fight they train for involve two willing combatants. Much less time is spent on capturing somebody who's trying to escape than in trying to fight someone who wants to fight you on the ground. A lot of grapplers will be out of their element if your sole purpose is to escape them and then return the fight to stand up position.

Also, usually public fights involve more than one person on each side. It's always one crew vs another crew. Never forget the guy you're fighting on the ground has friends close by who will kick you and stab you and bludgeon you. Most of the time, they don't even care if they hit their friend accidentally. It's not wise to go to the ground while fighting a guy who has his friends around him.

 

[J-kid]

Your statement is full of untruths, It appears you have never grappled or trained/faced a Expericend Grappler.
You said, That if fast enough a EG can not get that limb.
Hnmm if that where true no one could ever get submissions and we know thats not true. Real good fighters will just get pissed off when you do that kind of crap, Also you note when grappling in diffrent places they may not be able to, Yet you forget if you are grappling they have you in control and they are the ones working you and may use the stairs to there advantige. You need to realize how good EGs are, Bart you need to face one.

 

[J-kid]

You to Yiliquan1

 

[Matt Stone]

Out of curiosity, Judo-kid, do you know the names of the wrestling coaches from Iowa State? A number of years ago, I was matched up against a guy that was trained by them for wrestling competition. The guy was 5 years younger than me, way stronger (he lifted constantly) and a very experienced wrestler. His office matched him against me, champion against champion sort of, for a friendly competition.

He did his best, as did I. He had several opportunities that could have caused some parts of me come back in more than one piece. The overall concensus, however, was that he would have been in much worse shape than me given the number of shots I set out and touched him with...

That was an experienced grappler, a state champion in wrestling to boot.

All it says for me was that on that day I did well. He did a number on my ribs much later, giving me a rib that is permanently dislocated and sticks out like a kickstand! But the point is, I have done some mat time against "EGs" and did just fine...

Thanks for your comments, though. Perhaps you simply need to go up against an ES instead of some shopping mall kiddie class veterans...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[J-kid]

EG is someone who dos it all.
You have to have submissions to takedowns to groundwork.
You need
Jujutsu
Sambo/Judo
Wrestling all kinds.


he is missing over half the list come on.

 

[bart]

Your statement is full of untruths, It appears you have never grappled or trained/faced a Expericend Grappler.

Quite a statement!

You said, That if fast enough a EG can not get that limb.

Actually it comes back to reading skills. I said:

"True, but a striker is trained to strike quickly and you have to admit, it's hard to catch a non-committed motion, especially if you're trying to seize the limb that's moving. If a seize is missed, it very likely opens up another gouge which my bite harder. "

Last time I checked hard did not equate inability. It just denotes difficulty. Of course a strike can be caught. I didn't say anything to the contrary. I just said there's some difficulty in doing that. Read first, flame later.

Real good fighters will just get pissed off when you do that kind of crap,

Real fighters, EG or not, do that kind of crap (gouges, bites, scratches, whatever incapacitates the opponent).

Also you note when grappling in diffrent places they may not be able to, Yet you forget if you are grappling they have you in control and they are the ones working you and may use the stairs to there advantige.

This is that same knee jerk reaction you do that I was talking to you about before. Here's what I said:

"Realistically, shifting around as you roll is hard to do on pavement, stairs, and uneven ground. Eye gouging penetrates the same holes as punching, which your NHB heros seem to have little trouble doing to each other. "

You make the mistake of assuming that a grappler is always in control. Control moves back and forth during a fight. My comment above said that those strikes move in on the same line as punching does. Stairs and environment can be used against either person in a fight, again EG or not.

It appears you have never grappled or trained/faced a Expericend Grappler...You need to realize how good EGs are, Bart you need to face one.

I could say you've never faced a good striker and should go find one. But I don't wish you any harm. I would prefer that nobody got in fights and that we all live peacefully.

But I should tell you that although I have not knowingly faced anyone from the UFC/Pride/Etc, I have fought in the Dog Brothers. I also worked a year or so as a bouncer at a bar popular for "fresh out of jail" parties from Folsom prison almost every weekend night. Those were some mean guys, some fresh off of stints that took up the better part of your life. I think some of them may have fought a little and grappled some. I have all of my teeth, enough said.

I should also tell you this: fighting is fighting. There are always rules of some sort (either agreed upon or not) and I have respect for grapplers. But grappling is just one method of fighting. It's a part of the arsenal of any good fighter at least in knowing how to combat it. Some people are really good at it. Some people aren't. They compensate in areas that they're better in.