Sparring...what is it and is it worth doing?

[Twin Fist]

I don't need unscripted sparring to develop timing.

YES YOU DO without sparring, you are not going to develop combat effective timing, nor will you learn how to hit a moving, non co-operative target

I don't need unscripted sparring to develop speed.

YES YOU DO if you are not getting hit, you will never learn to develop effective speed

I don't need unscripted sparring to develop power.

YES YOU DO, it is an entirely different game when a partner is co-operating than when they are not

I don't need unscripted sparring to develop technique.

YES YOU DO what works in the air doesnt work against a no co-operative partner

I don't need unscripted sparring to develop confidence.

YES YOU DO the only way to learn that you can actually hit and not kill them, is to hit them, the only way to learn that you can get hit and not die is to get hit

I don't need unscripted sparring to develop mental toughness.

YES YOU DO, but i am thinking that your mind is made up, are you SURE you are taking martial arts? exactly what is it that you are learning?

 

[Grenadier]

I don't need unscripted sparring to develop timing.
I don't need unscripted sparring to develop speed.
I don't need unscripted sparring to develop power.
I don't need unscripted sparring to develop technique.
I don't need unscripted sparring to develop confidence.
I don't need unscripted sparring to develop mental toughness.
I don't need unscripted sparring to develop aggressiveness.
and on and on.

So.....why do I need unscripted sparring again?

Think of it like a tennis player.

Sure, I don't need to practice against a live player to develop timing. I can hit balls launched at me by the ball machine.
Sure, I don't need to practice against a live player to develop speed. I can do all sorts of speed drills.
Sure, I don't need to practice against a live player to develop power. I can lift weights.
Sure, I don't need to practice against a live player to develop technique. I can work on one technique at a time against a ball machine.
Sure, I don't need to practice against a live player to develop confidence. I can keep hitting back those balls launched at me by the ball machine and be confident in my techniques under these circumstances.
Sure, I don't need to practice against a live player to develop mental toughness. As long as I only play against the ball machine, nobody can question my toughness.
Sure, I don't need to practice against a live player to develop aggressiveness. I can crank up the speed on the ball machine!

So....why do I need unscripted sparring again?

Because, no amount of preparation against the ball machine is going to replace the unpredictability that is inherent in a live opponent. Live opponents can hit shots with topspin, underspin, or flat. They can change pace at a whim, without having to turn a dial or punch a button on a machine. They can hit the ball to where you are not, which the machine will probably not be able to do. The live opponents can act and react, and even establish an overwhelming presence on the tennis court, whereas a ball machine is still a ball machine...



The exact same thing can be said about sparring. While you can certainly practice techniques in a pre-arranged pattern, such as in ippon kumite, in the end, no amount of ippon kumite training will substitute for going against the unpredictability of a live opponent.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

What happens in the street CAN NOT be recreated in the "dojo" without all out attacking your students. So, what is created by "sparring"? IMO a false sense of just about everything. Whether anyone openly states it we all feel safe when sparring in a class. the sparring partner is more than likely not going to try and hurt us so our perception and our mind/body perception of the event is VERY different than when you are truly surprised and confronted with a situation without known variables.

Sure, sparring doesn't equate to a street fight, and I don't think anyone here is suggesting that sparring is analogous to self-defense training. Self-defense training is just that; SD training, not sparring. Sparring provides many benefits to training in my dojang, but adding to SD isn't one of them.

Also, as I stated above the rulesets and purpose of sparring differs from place to place. We don't use protective gear in our dojang (other than groin protectors). We have had the occasional KO, bone fx, contusion, etc.. . While I will state that no one's intention is to hurt their sparring partner, I would argue that they are fully aware that they had better do their very best to protect themselves while on the floor. Does this equal to the sympathetic response you may experience on the street? No. But that's not the point of sparring, IMO.

Some would say, sure but sparring is the best thing we can get close to real fighting. Is it? We have data on what happens in "real" events to the body - the physiological and mental aspects. I believe and have proven in my training that these aspects can be more accurately created by other means. Without creating and "connecting" fear to a situation we can manifest the effects and situation physically of fear within the body of the person training while at the same time maintaining almost perfect technique (here fear is used as one example, there are obviously many others). When one does this repeatedly over a certain amount of time the responsive effect of the student to "real" stimulus is much, A LOT, more favorable.

Take for instance the widely accepted fact that if you do something 25 times or more in a row it starts to form a habit. Well if you were sparring and working on timing over 50 sessions, let's say you get the timing down and repeatable by the 30 or 35th try but youre still "mastering it" even through all 50. Now you take someone of equal athleticism that has performed a realistic but scripted drill for 50 sessions where they were able to perform the drill accurately for more than 40 times with no memory of "bad attempts" or muscle memory from failed attempts. Put those two individuals in a sparring match and my money is on the drilling opponent to perform the timing sequence FAR better - in fact I have done many tests like this and seen it happen first hand.

Having a strong background in sports medicine, I recognize the limitations of reinforced muscle memory when that memory isn't of a "perfect" movement. I will also agree that adding in the variable of free sparring further stunts the growth of proper muscle memory when you are first learning. However, this appears to be a goal of "ideal technique," rather than the purpose of free sparring, which is, IMHO, experiencing a lively exchange of techniques in a free form manner.

Furthermore, I'm still not sure how you approach the experiential component of taking a hit, reactive timing of an unknown attack, or adapting to the unexpected movement of an opponent.

 

[Native]

realistic but scripted drill

I found it.. this is the thing that doesn't work, I believe. Take drilling a cross punch, for example. If you "spar" then a strike will come at you from a different direction often. Even if it is just supposed to be a cross. 50 cross punches, coming at you 50 different ways. Maybe because the attacker just had to side step to avoid a strike, or maybe the defender is in a different position because he lost his balance from a failed counter. Dynamic movements resulting from sparring make this happen. I cannot imagine being able to do this any other way.

Drilling things is a huge part of MA. I've drilled all my techniques countless times and in many different ways. I've taught and witnessed other students do it for years. I've seen them do very well in controlled situations and able to perform these techniques near perfectly. I've also sparred and seen sparring from these same students. Oddly enough, that trap they have practiced with wonderful results when drilling doesn't happen so nicely during sparring. But the more they practice sparring the better they get at identifying when to apply the trap and actually being able to accomplish it. This is my personal experience in training also. Simple observation makes this evident and undeniable. It really is that simple.

Unfortunately, the only way I, and probably others, would believe it is to see it. If you are ever in northern VA...

Thanks
-Adam Marcum

edited for speeling.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Using your basics against the unknown and unscripted is part of the script.

 

[jasonbrinn]

Awesome stuff people - thanks for the great responses and I will think over everyone's carefully going forward.

@Twin Fists - we will just have to disagree. My experience and real world applications have shown something different than what yours has seem to have turned out - maybe I'm wrong but it has not been proven yet (I am ready to change if and when it does though). I have definitely trained MAs my entire life but now I teach self defense and coach people on combatives and sports training.

@Grenadier - agreed to some extent. I am not saying that my methods can 100% prepare someone for the kinds of unexpected and truly dynamic aspects you detailed - what I am saying is that through my methods my students get a much higher percentage of appropriate response reactions by "cleaner" training and they get A LOT better A LOT faster (dramatically faster learning arc) then people who train the traditional way through real experiences (when they fight it seems to be much more beneficial for them than students I train under the traditional method)

@SahBumNimRush - You posted "Self-defense training is just that; SD training, not sparring. Sparring provides many benefits to training in my dojang, but adding to SD isn't one of them" so why then do you spar? I teach SD techniques exclusively for MAs and train people for sports like MMA, etc. To say that sparring isn't done for SD makes me question the whole reason why any MA (which is mostly considered for SD) would spar that felt that way at all? Is the sparring taught as a cultural thing?

 

[jasonbrinn]

I found it.. this is the thing that doesn't work, I believe. Take drilling a cross punch, for example. If you "spar" then a strike will come at you from a different direction often. Even if it is just supposed to be a cross. 50 cross punches, coming at you 50 different ways. Maybe because the attacker just had to side step to avoid a strike, or maybe the defender is in a different position because he lost his balance from a failed counter. Dynamic movements resulting from sparring make this happen. I cannot imagine being able to do this any other way.

Drilling things is a huge part of MA. I've drilled all my techniques countless times and in many different ways. I've taught and witnessed other students do it for years. I've seen them do very well in controlled situations and able to perform these techniques near perfectly. I've also sparred and seen sparring from these same students. Oddly enough, that trap they have practiced with wonderful results when drilling doesn't happen so nicely during sparring. But the more they practice sparring the better they get at identifying when to apply the trap and actually being able to accomplish it. This is my personal experience in training also. Simple observation makes this evident and undeniable. It really is that simple.

Unfortunately, the only way I, and probably others, would believe it is to see it. If you are ever in northern VA...

Thanks
-Adam Marcum

edited for speeling.

Well I live in Raleigh so it is not that much of a drive really. Do you train at a gym or do you teach? Northern VA makes me think of Trident, Irvin's or Yamasaki's - are you at any of these?

What style do you train? If you fight what weight class? I would be more than willing to give you a short sequence to test out on your own so you could see my stuff in action.

 

[Tez3]

I know this may be hard to accept/understand whatever, and I don't expect everyone (nearly anyone) to agree, however, comments that say "you can't learn fighting without fighting", or "without sparring you aren't doing anything" are just not in line with reality. Again, I understand the long time tradition of fight training and sparring but that doesn't mean we should stick with it just because.

Sparring shouldn't be about winning Tez3 it should be about learning.

What is the goal of your sparring?

Sparring was taught to me as a way to hone technical ability and master the dynamic physical nature of a fight while learning to "think on my feet" and adapt. Well, when you break those elements down and really look at it without ego or preconceived ideas then you might just find there are better ways to train those attributes - at least I did.

I don't need unscripted sparring to develop timing.
I don't need unscripted sparring to develop speed.
I don't need unscripted sparring to develop power.
I don't need unscripted sparring to develop technique.
I don't need unscripted sparring to develop confidence.
I don't need unscripted sparring to develop mental toughness.
I don't need unscripted sparring to develop aggressiveness.
and on and on.

So.....why do I need unscripted sparring again?

Did I say sparring was for winning? I said that with scripted sparring I can win, especially if I script it. I actually had already told you why we spar, I guess you didn't read it.

What scripted sparring doesn't do is train you to cope with the unexpected, how can it possibly when you always know what's coming? Everything you do through your scripted sparring we do, we however do unscripted sparring as well because we believe that you need that element of unpredictablity, the rush that comes when you realise you don't know what your opponent is going to do, the aliveness of testing in fact.

Any one of us training in our various styles does what you do yet we value sparring as well as enjoying it. We don't spend all our time sparring, it's only a fraction of what we do yet it ads that aliveness to our training that there really isn't any substitute for. It's not ego or closedmindedness that makes me say this, I've tried to see what you do that is different from the rest of us and there's no difference other than your need to control the students sparring.

The way you write makes me think you assume all we do is spar, it might not be that but it's coming over that you think we spar for most sessions when in fact we don't. sparring is a tiny fraction of what we do but we believe a vital part.

 

[jasonbrinn]

Did I say sparring was for winning? I said that with scripted sparring I can win, especially if I script it. I actually had already told you why we spar, I guess you didn't read it.

What scripted sparring doesn't do is train you to cope with the unexpected, how can it possibly when you always know what's coming? Everything you do through your scripted sparring we do, we however do unscripted sparring as well because we believe that you need that element of unpredictablity, the rush that comes when you realise you don't know what your opponent is going to do, the aliveness of testing in fact.

Any one of us training in our various styles does what you do yet we value sparring as well as enjoying it. We don't spend all our time sparring, it's only a fraction of what we do yet it ads that aliveness to our training that there really isn't any substitute for. It's not ego or closedmindedness that makes me say this, I've tried to see what you do that is different from the rest of us and there's no difference other than your need to control the students sparring.

I respect your opinion and your experience but we just disagree.

I am not "controlling" anything only offering the best instruction I can to offer the most success for my students.

I play the percentages and drilling is higher than sparring time and time again. The body when properly drilled reacts in reality the first time out remarkably well. This kind of training is done in other ways across other disciplines to high result.

I believe in testing your training regimen and acumen by fighting. I think sparring is a bad tradition fun or not that ultimately lends itself to supporting antiquated techniques and bad science principles rampant in most MAs. This is my opinion. An opinion that I have derived after testing. An opinion I offer up for anyone willing to test and find the results for themselves. I am willing to be wrong....when proven so.

 

[Native]

Well I live in Raleigh so it is not that much of a drive really. Do you train at a gym or do you teach? Northern VA makes me think of Trident, Irvin's or Yamasaki's - are you at any of these?

What style do you train? If you fight what weight class? I would be more than willing to give you a short sequence to test out on your own so you could see my stuff in action.

I train in a combination MA (not to be confused with MMA). It draws heavily from TKD, kick boxing & Hapkido but has elements of some other arts as well, including some ground work. We train in a dojang that does not belong to me. I am an instructor there, but second to our Sabumnim, who teaches almost every class. I don't fight competitively; just sparring. If you are ever in the area I could probably work something out for mat time. But don't make a special trip for me :ultracool

 

[Tez3]

I respect your opinion and your experience but we just disagree.

I am not "controlling" anything only offering the best instruction I can to offer the most success for my students.

I play the percentages and drilling is higher than sparring time and time again. The body when properly drilled reacts in reality the first time out remarkably well. This kind of training is done in other ways across other disciplines to high result.

I believe in testing your training regimen and acumen by fighting. I think sparring is a bad tradition fun or not that ultimately lends itself to supporting antiquated techniques and bad science principles rampant in most MAs. This is my opinion. An opinion that I have derived after testing. An opinion I offer up for anyone willing to test and find the results for themselves. I am willing to be wrong....when proven so.

So why I have I got fighters who fight successfully if I don't follow the way you do it? why are the top ranked fighters still sparring when they train? Why are you right and the most successful trainers and fighters are wrong? I'm sorry but there's nothing to show you are doing anything we aren't. You think we don't do endless drills, don't train endless at our techniques, that we don't go over and over set pieces, combinations etc yet just because we also spar you think we are wrong? Sparring is a half percent of what we do, I've already said this but again you intimate we spend our time sparring time and time again (your words). Basically you are saying you think we spar all the time and don't do drills. Man, we do drills until they come out of our ears, you've no idea how much we drill things, sparring however puts the aliveness in what we do. We will drill something then try it, the surprise on peoples faces when you don't keep to the script is obvious which is why you need unscripted sparring. that lement of surprise, the feeling you don't know what's coming. It makes sure you don't send your fightrs into that cage with a false sense of security, theat they know anything can happen and they have the knowledge to be able to react. It must be a shock for anyone used to scripted sparring to face an unknown opponent who doesn't know the script, I'm sorry but that's not the way to prepare an MMA fighter.

 

[jasonbrinn]

So why I have I got fighters who fight successfully if I don't follow the way you do it? why are the top ranked fighters still sparring when they train? Why are you right and the most successful trainers and fighters are wrong? I'm sorry but there's nothing to show you are doing anything we aren't. You think we don't do endless drills, don't train endless at our techniques, that we don't go over and over set pieces, combinations etc yet just because we also spar you think we are wrong? Sparring is a half percent of what we do, I've already said this but again you intimate we spend our time sparring time and time again (your words). Basically you are saying you think we spar all the time and don't do drills. Man, we do drills until they come out of our ears, you've no idea how much we drill things, sparring however puts the aliveness in what we do. We will drill something then try it, the surprise on peoples faces when you don't keep to the script is obvious which is why you need unscripted sparring. that lement of surprise, the feeling you don't know what's coming. It makes sure you don't send your fightrs into that cage with a false sense of security, theat they know anything can happen and they have the knowledge to be able to react. It must be a shock for anyone used to scripted sparring to face an unknown opponent who doesn't know the script, I'm sorry but that's not the way to prepare an MMA fighter.

I never said you didn't do anything, the response was to the majority of people who treat sparring in the ways they mentioned on the thread. Great for you and your fighters. I never said anyone was wrong only that I have found a higher percentage way for me and mine. If 100% of the fighters train a particular way then the winning methods are at least 50% right? Just cause everyone trains a certain way, including the top guys, doesn't mean there aren't advances made and new ideas formulated.

I respect your opinion and your results. I too, however, have trained with top guys and trained MMA fighters in the exact method I just described with 100% results of my own so that at least means your way is not the only way, right? I am not asking for faith - I am suggesting testing something different and just maybe you might find some different superior results. What's wrong with that?

 

[Tez3]

I never said you didn't do anything, the response was to the majority of people who treat sparring in the ways they mentioned on the thread. Great for you and your fighters. I never said anyone was wrong only that I have found a higher percentage way for me and mine. If 100% of the fighters train a particular way then the winning methods are at least 50% right? Just cause everyone trains a certain way, including the top guys, doesn't mean there aren't advances made and new ideas formulated.

I respect your opinion and your results. I too, however, have trained with top guys and trained MMA fighters in the exact method I just described with 100% results of my own so that at least means your way is not the only way, right? I am not asking for faith - I am suggesting testing something different and just maybe you might find some different superior results. What's wrong with that?

Nothing wrong with something different, only what you are doing isn't different, it's what everyone else is doing minus the unchoreographed sparring.

 

[Native]

From everyone's account, we are not talking about a big chunk of training here. Maybe 5%, 2% or 0.5% ... I'm wondering why NOT spar? Sparring, at the very least, is a lot of fun and why not put some fun in your training 2% of the time?.

Jason contends that it is not the most efficient way to train. But do you think it actually regresses one's training? If that is the case, I'm afraid there are way too many successful examples to the contrary. History as a witness, the burden of proof lay at your feet. You should consider that your training has perhaps lead you to the wrong conclusion. You have misinterpreted or miscalculated somewhere. You have seen success at what you do, but consider it may not be because you have omitted sparring.

Like I and Tez have said, everyone drills. We drill A LOT. A lot more than sparring. Sounds like the biggest difference is you are missing about 5% of your training.

Edit.

Nothing wrong with something different, only what you are doing isn't different, it's what everyone else is doing minus the unchoreographed sparring.

What Tez said.

 

[jasonbrinn]

Nothing wrong with something different, only what you are doing isn't different, it's what everyone else is doing minus the unchoreographed sparring.

You assume too much. How can you know what I am doing when all I have given you is the basis of how we do what we do...? Take some junior guys, if you can and they are willing, and cycle them out of your normal training protocols and have them do everything minus sparring plus some heavily scripted sessions - do this for about 2 months and then cycle them back in to the regular training sessions and you will see the results for yourself.

 

[jasonbrinn]

From everyone's account, we are not talking about a big chunk of training here. Maybe 5%, 2% or 0.5% ... I'm wondering why NOT spar? Sparring, at the very least, is a lot of fun and why not put some fun in your training 2% of the time?.

Jason contends that it is not the most efficient way to train. But do you think it actually regresses one's training? If that is the case, I'm afraid there are way too many successful examples to the contrary. History as a witness, the burden of proof lay at your feet. You should consider that your training has perhaps lead you to the wrong conclusion. You have misinterpreted or miscalculated somewhere. You have seen success at what you do, but consider it may not be because you have omitted sparring.

Like I and Tez have said, everyone drills. We drill A LOT. A lot more than sparring. Sounds like the biggest difference is you are missing about 5% of your training.

Great points, especially the point that the sparring might not have been the factor. I went through this though and I had two groups train the two different ways. Each group was evenly matched and the ONLY difference in the training was the scripted versus unscripted sparring and the results were ridiculously in favor of the scripted sparring method. This "test" went as far as taking a previously completely untrained person from never being in a fight through this training method and never taking a single punch or even 1 sparring match into the MMA arena at the bottom of the heavyweight weight class against very experienced fighters and going 4-0 and winning the championship title in VA all within 1 year. Now, I could have gotten lucky with that fighter, but that is not the only set of results I have had to lead me to believe heavily in this method.

YES - I think unscripted sparring is bad. I think it creates at the very least a much longer learning arc, and at the worst bad mental connections for the fighter/student.

*Oh, and in the test mentioned above - the sparring sessions for the group that did the unscripted sparring were lead and taught by a Nationally Rated Boxing Coach with the #3 guy in the nation in the gym at the time helping out.

 

[Native]

Great points, especially the point that the sparring might not have been the factor. I went through this though and I had two groups train the two different ways. Each group was evenly matched and the ONLY difference in the training was the scripted versus unscripted sparring and the results were ridiculously in favor of the scripted sparring method. This "test" went as far as taking a previously completely untrained person from never being in a fight through this training method and never taking a single punch or even 1 sparring match into the MMA arena at the bottom of the heavyweight weight class against very experienced fighters and going 4-0 and winning the championship title in VA all within 1 year. Now, I could have gotten lucky with that fighter, but that is not the only set of results I have had to lead me to believe heavily in this method.

YES - I think unscripted sparring is bad. I think it creates at the very least a much longer learning arc, and at the worst bad mental connections for the fighter/student.

*Oh, and in the test mentioned above - the sparring sessions for the group that did the unscripted sparring were lead and taught by a Nationally Rated Boxing Coach with the #3 guy in the nation in the gym at the time helping out.

Impressive that you actually did such an experiment. The long history of sparring as a part of training and the Conventional wisdom, or common sense, on this subject have an enormous weight. And I'm not one to do something just because it's popular. Hell, I wouldn't watch a Harry Potter film for 3 years just because everyone was into it.. and I have 3 kids that are Potter freaks! Maybe not the best example, but you get the point.

Your philosophy is so far from sensible to me that the only way I would ever be able to give it credit would be to spend a lot of time experimenting myself. Or you would have to provide a whole lot of examples and evidence. I mean a whole lot. If you believe in it, keep working it and find different ways to prove it with fact and examples. Otherwise, I fear you are on a small island.

-Adam Marcum

Edit: And BTW, if you are citing instances as proof of something, you really should include names, dates and other specifics that could be followed up on if someone chose to. Otherwise it's just as easily a fantasy, not a fact.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

@SahBumNimRush - You posted "Self-defense training is just that; SD training, not sparring. Sparring provides many benefits to training in my dojang, but adding to SD isn't one of them" so why then do you spar? I teach SD techniques exclusively for MAs and train people for sports like MMA, etc. To say that sparring isn't done for SD makes me question the whole reason why any MA (which is mostly considered for SD) would spar that felt that way at all? Is the sparring taught as a cultural thing?

Hoshinsul a.k.a. "self-defense" training focuses on more damaging techniques and defenses against "all" attacks (grabs, chokes, strikes, locks, weapons, etc.), many of which are "illegal" in "normal" sparring in my dojang. Sparring in TKD (presumably due to its roots in Shotokan) is primarily a competitive thing. While there is a large spectrum of TKD from "traditional" to "sport" and everything in between, sparring is still at its basic level a competition between two partners and themselves. Unless you are a higher rank and sparring a junior, in which case it is a teaching moment for the junior rank.

There are aspects of sparring that lend themselves to SD training, but I wouldn't want to count on my sparring experience alone to help me in a street fight. The ruleset of TKD sparring simply doesn't lend itself to the variables of a street fight. The same could be said about just about any art that spars. Take BJJ for example, if you took a fight to the ground on the street, you are neglecting to realize there could be a second or third or more assailants waiting to punch, kick, stab, shoot you while your grappling the first guy on the ground. Or the "bum rushes" you see in MMA to take someone down (not sure what the move is really called, no offense intended: a movement where you put your head down and lunge at the opponent attempting to grab them around the waist to take them down), the ruleset does not allow strikes to the spine, which is an obvious target if someone tried that on the street.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

This "test" went as far as taking a previously completely untrained person from never being in a fight through this training method and never taking a single punch or even 1 sparring match into the MMA arena at the bottom of the heavyweight weight class against very experienced fighters and going 4-0 and winning the championship title in VA all within 1 year.

Yeah ... I'm going need something to back that up - names, dates, events - before I give it even the slightest bit of credibility. Going from untrained to MMA champion (even amateur) against experienced opponents without ever doing a single sparring session doesn't strike me as particularly plausible. I'm pretty certain there's not another MMA camp out there which trains its fighters that way.

 

[Big Don]

Sparring is using all your abilities, knowledge, strategies, and tactics and a small part of your strength. Sparring, at my school, is an all out, no holds barred, brawl, in a controlled environment. The way my Sifu explains it:

Two things are going to happen in sparring: You're gonna get hit, it is gonna hurt.

He also explains that sparring is NOT about punching and kicking, anyone can throw a punch or a kick, sparring is about learning to take a punch and a kick. As a great military commander, whose name escapes me, stated: No plan survives first contact with the enemy. You can be the baddest mofo around at set drills, but, what if your opponent throws a left kick instead of a right punch?

I said that with scripted sparring I can win, especially if I script it.

C'mon Tez, if I scripted it, I'd win every single time in dramatic and exciting fashion...