I'm not sure how I'd go on this issue. I teach a small group of adults at the Y and at a public park. Anything like open sparring would not be allowed at the Y. At the park, guys we knew from other styles would come in and mix it up with a couple of younger, more experienced students of mine. It was a positive experience... and fun. But I already knew these guys. They were good at what they did, had control, and didn't have any serious ego issues. I wouldn't be comfortable opening up sparring at a class in the park to any stranger who walks by. We get all kinds wandering past. Some drunk or on drugs, and out here a lot of guys carry concealed knives and guns. No permit is necessary. Tempers flare and things go bad. I'd rather get together with other individuals and groups I know. Or at least check the guy out very thoroughly. Maybe I'm just getting old and overly cautious?
Do you believe in open sparring sessions
- Thread starter Mark Lynn
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jasonbrinn
Purple Belt
With all due to respect to those who have already posted....
CRAZY!
That is what I know this practice to be. I can't think on one (1) single benefit from such a practice to ANY school - and I have run both a competition styled school and a non-competition styled school. After 30+ years of training, 15 of which I taught, there has never been one good outcome from the kind of "open" session that you are referring to (I should also point out here that I have consulted with many school owners and the results they had were the same).
1. Business - this is just bad for business. You have the liability issues out the yin/yang. Sure, most people are cool and will play fair but it is like Russian roulet and nowadays everyone thinks they are the next ultimate fighting champion if they only had somewhere to prove it (your school)! I have seen the conversion ratios here and they are bleak to say the least. The other end is that your students make friends with someone from somewhere new and now they either leave or start focusing some of their attention away from your school and style! So where is the upside from the Business perspective?
2. School Culture - You have now left a potential hole in the world your students expect you to keep clean and safe for the snakes to creep in. Students are always at different levels of progression and the same goes for their techniques, but guess what, your happy visitor doesn't know about either. Sparring with this individual only causes confusion in the mind of your student and sometimes even discouragement. Maybe you advanced a student to help build their confidence or because they are great in other areas and now comes a student from X school whose instructor grades them 5 years behind the mark to make him look great - your student gets handled like a newbie and the whole dynamic of your gym gets tainted. Or the flip side - this new guy is great and gets your student interested in something you don't teach and now splinters their focus!
3. Sparring Ability - Let me say that I know this is not what 99% of you will believe but it is my GOSPEL TRUTH and that is sparring actually makes people worse fighters. Yep I said that. But I will leave my personal feelings out and play along with the idea that sparring is something worth doing in the first place.... Here comes Johnny from school X where they throw down and just like to bang around in their school. Your students concept of timing, which they are still working on mind you, gets blown to hack and back and their confidence shattered. There is always the potential of getting hurt. Your students could pick up bad habits that work at their stage but hinder them from getting better at the next one. So many more things I could put here but I t.hink you get the point.
At the end of the day there really is NO reason to do this at all. I could seeing bringing in people and groups under a controlled scenario if you are going to be anchored to the idea of sparring anyway but as far as "open" sessions go....
CRAZY!
CRAZY!
That is what I know this practice to be. I can't think on one (1) single benefit from such a practice to ANY school - and I have run both a competition styled school and a non-competition styled school. After 30+ years of training, 15 of which I taught, there has never been one good outcome from the kind of "open" session that you are referring to (I should also point out here that I have consulted with many school owners and the results they had were the same).
1. Business - this is just bad for business. You have the liability issues out the yin/yang. Sure, most people are cool and will play fair but it is like Russian roulet and nowadays everyone thinks they are the next ultimate fighting champion if they only had somewhere to prove it (your school)! I have seen the conversion ratios here and they are bleak to say the least. The other end is that your students make friends with someone from somewhere new and now they either leave or start focusing some of their attention away from your school and style! So where is the upside from the Business perspective?
2. School Culture - You have now left a potential hole in the world your students expect you to keep clean and safe for the snakes to creep in. Students are always at different levels of progression and the same goes for their techniques, but guess what, your happy visitor doesn't know about either. Sparring with this individual only causes confusion in the mind of your student and sometimes even discouragement. Maybe you advanced a student to help build their confidence or because they are great in other areas and now comes a student from X school whose instructor grades them 5 years behind the mark to make him look great - your student gets handled like a newbie and the whole dynamic of your gym gets tainted. Or the flip side - this new guy is great and gets your student interested in something you don't teach and now splinters their focus!
3. Sparring Ability - Let me say that I know this is not what 99% of you will believe but it is my GOSPEL TRUTH and that is sparring actually makes people worse fighters. Yep I said that. But I will leave my personal feelings out and play along with the idea that sparring is something worth doing in the first place.... Here comes Johnny from school X where they throw down and just like to bang around in their school. Your students concept of timing, which they are still working on mind you, gets blown to hack and back and their confidence shattered. There is always the potential of getting hurt. Your students could pick up bad habits that work at their stage but hinder them from getting better at the next one. So many more things I could put here but I t.hink you get the point.
At the end of the day there really is NO reason to do this at all. I could seeing bringing in people and groups under a controlled scenario if you are going to be anchored to the idea of sparring anyway but as far as "open" sessions go....
CRAZY!
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My belief on "open" sparring sessions?
Well, that depends on how open you want it to be.
If we're talking about letting random individuals just walk into the dojo, and challenge to a sparring match, absolutely not.
There are simply too many things that are beyond my control if I were to allow this to happen. For one thing, I don't know what the individual's true skill level is. Furthermore, and more importantly, I don't know what kind of character he has. Would he be an honorable combatant, and back down if he were easily winning? Would he refuse to resort to dishonorable tactics if he were badly losing?
I honestly do not know what the answers are, just from a cursory glance, and I really don't want to bother wasting precious calories finding out. If such individuals want to spar our students, then they should join the dojo, plain and simple.
Furthermore, insurance companies, and legal entities, would certainly frown upon this. It doesn't matter if someone signs a waiver or not. They probably don't hold much value in court.
The way I see it, the dojo wars of the John Timothy Keehan / Count Dante days came about from the abuse of such policies, and is an event I would *not* want to recreate...
For a cooperative effort with another dojo? Now that's entirely possible. If another dojo wants to engage in a cooperative training session for kumite, and if the dojo is a good one, then I'm not opposed to having such sessions take place. If anything, this could be a great way to gain exposure to a wider variety of people, and get valuable experience.
For example, if you have a dojo with a good number of talented fighters who are trying to make the US National Team, and if there's a rival (friendly rival, that is) dojo nearby that needs skilled practice partners, then a joint training session between the two might be an excellent idea. Several of the big names in Hawaii do this, and it becomes a mutually beneficial thing to both dojos. In this case, you have two high quality schools, with professional folks who aren't going to be thugs, gaining valuable benefits from each other.
Well, that depends on how open you want it to be.
If we're talking about letting random individuals just walk into the dojo, and challenge to a sparring match, absolutely not.
There are simply too many things that are beyond my control if I were to allow this to happen. For one thing, I don't know what the individual's true skill level is. Furthermore, and more importantly, I don't know what kind of character he has. Would he be an honorable combatant, and back down if he were easily winning? Would he refuse to resort to dishonorable tactics if he were badly losing?
I honestly do not know what the answers are, just from a cursory glance, and I really don't want to bother wasting precious calories finding out. If such individuals want to spar our students, then they should join the dojo, plain and simple.
Furthermore, insurance companies, and legal entities, would certainly frown upon this. It doesn't matter if someone signs a waiver or not. They probably don't hold much value in court.
The way I see it, the dojo wars of the John Timothy Keehan / Count Dante days came about from the abuse of such policies, and is an event I would *not* want to recreate...
For a cooperative effort with another dojo? Now that's entirely possible. If another dojo wants to engage in a cooperative training session for kumite, and if the dojo is a good one, then I'm not opposed to having such sessions take place. If anything, this could be a great way to gain exposure to a wider variety of people, and get valuable experience.
For example, if you have a dojo with a good number of talented fighters who are trying to make the US National Team, and if there's a rival (friendly rival, that is) dojo nearby that needs skilled practice partners, then a joint training session between the two might be an excellent idea. Several of the big names in Hawaii do this, and it becomes a mutually beneficial thing to both dojos. In this case, you have two high quality schools, with professional folks who aren't going to be thugs, gaining valuable benefits from each other.
We have open mats for charity quite often, people will come and grapple, not spar, with each other with usually a few pro fighters as well as instructors along to show techniques etc. They are friendly, you get to roll with people outside the club and it raises money for good causes. Money is tight so paying for a session is a good way to fund raise these days, people can't afford to just donate. fighters and instructors are good at giving their time and usually the venue is free, someones club or the gym at a uni.
oftheherd1
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When I taught, I set aside an area at the back, where on breaks, people could go and do as they wished as far as attacking and defending. I had a very small and select student group, so it was easy to manage. Even so, it wasn't all that popular after a while. Possibly because we were such a small group.
We would simply not have allowed someone in off the street to do so for liability reasons.
We would simply not have allowed someone in off the street to do so for liability reasons.
How does training with someone who does MMA beneficial to your students? IMHO, it could open them up to more contact, more aliveness, more pressure, the chance to see what may/may not work, the chance to see how well they can do on the ground, in a grappling situation. Of course, these are only a few things, but my point is simply that it'll take people out of their comfort zone. As for keeping control....its important to have a mutual understand that this is a friendly match. People aren't fighting for cash or belt. That said, check the egos at the door. Injuries will happen. But, IMO, theres a difference between an accident and an intentional cheap shot.
You know what I find funny? In so many of your posts, you have to constantly remind people of your training time. Yes we know...no need to keep bragging or talking about it. Does this somehow, in your head, think that it makes you a better or more knowledgeable person? IMO, it makes you sounds like a braggart, but thats just me. Honestly, I dont give a crap if you've been training for 50yrs....no need to remind people every post you make. Just post something productive.
And you have that potential with any other student that walks in your doors as well. IMO, its not bad for business...instead it makes it known that your school is open, friendly, and welcomes anyone.
Advanced a student to build their confidence? LOL! LOL! So thats what you promote Jason??? Sorry, there've been hundreds of threads on that, and IMO, thats just wrong. Earn it...with hard work, blood, sweat and tears. THAT is what builds confidence...not having something handed to you. By doing that, you, as the inst., are instilling in the students that they're better than they really are. Perhaps it's a good wake up call. Theres a good saying out there...its called...You Suck! Train Harder!!! Too bad more people don't follow that motto.
Oh God forbid someones fragile glass mind gets shattered..LOL! You can't be serious...are you??? So, instead of letting your students know what works/doesnt work, you're happy with instilling some false **** into them, telling them that everything they know will work, so it doesnt hurt their witty bitty feelwings...so when their *** in on the line on the street, and they get their *** kicked, THEN they'll come crying back to you, asking why it happened? But, but, but Sensei, you said this would work. You made me believe it would. What happened?
YOU SUCK! TRAIN HARDER!!!!
When training most MMA people don't go full on, they drill to learn the techniques then when rolling with someone only go as far as feeling the techniques put on before tapping or loosening off. There's a big chance of people being injured if we don't train this way, pro fighter who fight for a living don't need injuries before a fight nor do amateurs who do it for fun so you are going to be safe enough with MMAers most of whom like expanding their experiences with others, they are always up for learning stuff too so it could be a rewarding experience having them in.
I like open sparring sessions. I just want some time to evaluate someone before feeding them to the sharks or vice versa. In other words I want to know their skill sets, conditioning, etc. so that I can place them up against someone that will not only challenge them but make it interesting for both parties. The outcome should be for everyone to learn and get better! Not for someone to just waltz in and stroke their ego. Sparring against new people is really, really good for your training!
One thing for sure is that for liability reasons any participant should be a member of said school for insurance.
This can be very, very positive when done right!
One thing for sure is that for liability reasons any participant should be a member of said school for insurance.
This can be very, very positive when done right!
sfs982000
Master Black Belt
I think having an open sparring policy is a great idea, there are the networking possibilities from members from other schools as well as testing your skills against opponents from other styles. I looked into a couple other schools around my area and unfortunately they don't offer that option due to liability issues. Personally I don't see the issue as long as I sign a waiver and adhere to the schools sparring rules.
jasonbrinn
Purple Belt
Sorry YOU feel that way. I am not making assumptions that everyone in every post on each thread understands the context from which I bring my statements (I only have 20 posts here). Bragging is when you talk about things you can do not things you have done - that's called history. I am sorry this somehow rubbed you the wrong way I just wanted to set the tone for my comments as someone who has "been there done that" and not just a guy with a random idea on some internet forum bored to death. However, thank you and from now on I will save the history for my profile and when people ignorantly question my ability to make the statements that I do...like for instance;
Yep. Its called coaching. I am not sure if you are familiar with this or if you have ever taken someone into actual sporting events or trained them for real life scenarios but, not to brag, I have. It is customary to build a students, athletes, etc., confidence by having them meet and make goals. It is done in all walks from high school football, to the UFC to the military. 99% of anything just about is mental (of course that is not a real number based on data collected but I believe most will agree).
I guess to you rank means some validation of fighting ability? How skewed! So then a Black Belt from Karate should fight well against a Black Belt from BJJ or say a Black Sash from Hung Gar should fair well against a Black Belt from muay Thai? What you have somehow missed sir is that rank is a tool. Rank was created by Kano as a tool to be used in the classroom not as a means to judge combat efficiency. Would Black Belts at your school hold their own against Black Belts at the Gracie Torrance school? Even if they did what would that say? Oh, they can fight that's right. So, if I bring a guy off the street into your school and he wipes the floor with one of your Black Belts then are you going to give him a Black Belt on the spot? Let's just agree to disagree with "why" and "how" people use belts, fair enough?
Interesting. Illogical but interesting. Looking past the 4th grade tirade, NO that's not what is going on. When I teach it comes from a functionally tested reality tried point of view. I don't expect my students to figure it out or even work it out - that is why they are students. Schools aren't labs they are places of instruction hopefully ran by people who KNOW what works having diligently researched and tested first (at least that's how it was done in my school maybe yours is different?). My students using what I have taught them have gone on to succeed in all kinds of arenas, oops let me remind you here the difference between bragging and stating facts to be used in conversation as points, such as law enforcement, military operations, basic self defense and MMA.
I appreciate the passion sir, but I would appreciate more some personal respect and a focus on the issues utilizing good logic and standard lines of argument.
LOL...well, OTOH, you're not the only one whos 'Been there, done that' either Jason. I simply find it interesting that you feel it necessary. One thing....for me, I'm not impressed with people who brag, I'm not impressed with people who brag about rank. For me, what matters most is how well can they teach, how well do they know the material, how well they can apply the material, and things of that nature. You may win some unassuming person over with your 30yrs, but frankly, not me. FWIW, I am not far behind you in time. Yet while I have mentioned it, I dont in every post. Oh and as far as questioning things goes....looks like I'm not the only one who questions things about you. Seems with a bit of digging, its amazing what you can find. But I guess this thread isn't about YOU.
I've trained many people Jason. Been doing it for a long time. I've had numerous people whom I've taught, come up to me afterwards and thank me for the lesson. Many have said that my approach is different from the norm. But part of my teaching, is to help them learn and not give them false impressions. If they suck or something is wrong, I'm going to tell them...."No, you're not doing this right. You need more time before you can move on." Its as simple as that. I dont sugar coat things Jason, I tell it like it is. If that offends some, well, I'm sorry. I'd rather be honest and up front with someone, rather than give them false hope. But if thats what you want to do, go right ahead.
LMFAO! Are you serious?? As I said above, to me, rank doesnt mean much. Its a belt Jay, thats it. I've seen people wearing brown and black belts, that IMO, sucked ***! LOL! Just because they're wearing that rank, doesnt mean they're worthy of it. Don't twist my post to suit your needs! I'm not sure where you pulled that out of my post, but you're wrong! It was YOU Jason, who talked about promoting people just to make them feel good. Lets stick with the topic here.
This is what you said:
"3. Sparring Ability - Let me say that I know this is not what 99% of you will believe but it is my GOSPEL TRUTH and that is sparring actually makes people worse fighters. Yep I said that. But I will leave my personal feelings out and play along with the idea that sparring is something worth doing in the first place.... Here comes Johnny from school X where they throw down and just like to bang around in their school. Your students concept of timing, which they are still working on mind you, gets blown to hack and back and their confidence shattered. There is always the potential of getting hurt. Your students could pick up bad habits that work at their stage but hinder them from getting better at the next one. So many more things I could put here but I t.hink you get the point.
At the end of the day there really is NO reason to do this at all. I could seeing bringing in people and groups under a controlled scenario if you are going to be anchored to the idea of sparring anyway but as far as "open" sessions go...."
Sparring is 1 part of the many pieces to training. However, I do feel strongly that sparring does test the person and tends to make clear whats going to work and not work. Its all fine when you have a non compliant person, standing like a statue, but when someone is really swinging, it changes the whole ballgame.
As for respect...well, respect is a 2 way street. Respect is earned, not automatically given. Oh and again, as for the bragging...yes, your 'background' is rather interesting, and according to some, sketchy at best...but I guess thats another thread.
Another question for you Jason. You said:
"At the end of the day there really is NO reason to do this at all. I could seeing bringing in people and groups under a controlled scenario if you are going to be anchored to the idea of sparring anyway but as far as "open" sessions go...."
You also said:
"3. Sparring Ability - Let me say that I know this is not what 99% of you will believe but it is my GOSPEL TRUTH and that is sparring actually makes people worse fighters. Yep I said that. But I will leave my personal feelings out and play along with the idea that sparring is something worth doing in the first place.... Here comes Johnny from school X where they throw down and just like to bang around in their school. Your students concept of timing, which they are still working on mind you, gets blown to hack and back and their confidence shattered. There is always the potential of getting hurt. Your students could pick up bad habits that work at their stage but hinder them from getting better at the next one. So many more things I could put here but I t.hink you get the point."
So, going on that, even if you brought someone in, 1 or 2 people, from another art/school, to spar, train, etc, with your students, the potential for them to, as you said, get their confidence shattered...LOL...is still a real possibility. So regardless if you bring in 1 person or invite an entire TKD school or whatever other art, the chance for your students to get hurt, insulted, beat, etc, is still there.
"At the end of the day there really is NO reason to do this at all. I could seeing bringing in people and groups under a controlled scenario if you are going to be anchored to the idea of sparring anyway but as far as "open" sessions go...."
You also said:
"3. Sparring Ability - Let me say that I know this is not what 99% of you will believe but it is my GOSPEL TRUTH and that is sparring actually makes people worse fighters. Yep I said that. But I will leave my personal feelings out and play along with the idea that sparring is something worth doing in the first place.... Here comes Johnny from school X where they throw down and just like to bang around in their school. Your students concept of timing, which they are still working on mind you, gets blown to hack and back and their confidence shattered. There is always the potential of getting hurt. Your students could pick up bad habits that work at their stage but hinder them from getting better at the next one. So many more things I could put here but I t.hink you get the point."
So, going on that, even if you brought someone in, 1 or 2 people, from another art/school, to spar, train, etc, with your students, the potential for them to, as you said, get their confidence shattered...LOL...is still a real possibility. So regardless if you bring in 1 person or invite an entire TKD school or whatever other art, the chance for your students to get hurt, insulted, beat, etc, is still there.
jasonbrinn
Purple Belt
..yes, your 'background' is rather interesting, and according to some, sketchy at best...but I guess thats another thread.
What a cowardly thing to do sir. You search on the interwebs and you think you know anything about me? You think you are clever with your tongue in your cheek. I have spoken only about facts - you see that's what I'm about - facts.
If you want to drag other, slanderously false forums into this one then go ahead. I can show you some people close to you sir on such threads and people much better than I on those same threads treated even worse than I was. I hate to shatter your "fragile glass mind" but everything you read on the internet is not true. I answered every single objection people had about me and even showed up alone and sparred everyone that wanted to. You see I was raised in the school of "put up or shut up."
I hope you can learn to disagree with my comments and not stoop to the level of attacking the character of someone you truly do not know anything about. Go back and read how you initially responded to my post and my follow up to yours. Think it over and you will see I have been fair even after you attacked incorrectly my post.
As for not sparring, yes I know this is controversial and I know I am alone in that belief for the most part. However, I have proven that my training ideas work. I have taken people with no training, given them no sparring only drills and had them out perform and win in their endeavors over and over. So you can disagree with the idea but the results, like my training history speak for themselves.
Who knows Mike, you probably know people that I have trained with.
No, that would be me. I chalk it up to undiagnosed ADD. Random. Yep, you bet. Also bored ...with this argument. You guys are entitled to your opinions, but no need to carry on for so long. Now I can't remember what the OP was ...A little help, please?
jasonbrinn
Purple Belt
I apologize and your point is well taken (I am done here).
The OP was generally about whether "open mat sessions" are a good idea or not?
The OP was generally about whether "open mat sessions" are a good idea or not?
Nah...others have done the digging. I'm just reading what they found, thats all. But, all that aside...my fragile mind...LMAO...thanks for the laugh Jay.
Nope, my minds not fragile, unlike the egos of some around here. As for the sparring, as I said, its 1 piece to the puzzle. Its not the end all, be all, but I do feel its important. As for the rank debate.....rank is something that should be earned, not handed out. And thats the school of thought that I follow. You're more concerned with not hurting the feelings of a student, while I'm concerned with making damn sure that they know their stuff and if they don't I tell them. If someone wants to promote them on the base that they suck, thats something they will have to live with. As for knowing people you trained with....who knows, anythings possible
The Last Legionary
All warfare is based on deception.<br><b>nemo malu
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jasonbrinn
Purple Belt
You will lose just as they did.
Nice link. You must be like them or worse. The FACTS about me were proven and they won't remove the lies posted because it brings them business. I have the proof as well as former staff members from Bullshido that will back this up as well.
If you took 2 seconds you would see that the OP that started that was a competing school 20 minutes down the road. Everything they have put up is a lie and no you are part of it as well as this site as long as it gives you the forum to post such links.
The Last Legionary
All warfare is based on deception.<br><b>nemo malu
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
First, I'm not going to roll with you. So I already won.
Second, even if I was going to roll, I wouldn't roll with someone who has been documented as a fraud with extensive information.
Thirdly, even though I have little respect for Bullshido and their grade school mentality, their research here is extensive and in-depth.
So the only loser here is you, as you're pretty much discredited. Nothing you say is of any real value.
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