Sparring...what is it and is it worth doing?

[MJS]

Not even once. Not a single punch - nothing! He trained the entire time with me without one sparring match - in fact when he went into his first fight he had NEVER in his entire life even been hit by anyone - not a single fight or anything!

Well, I'll admit Jason, I'm a bit confused as to how this is even possible. I don't do MMA, but to me, it'd seem like sparring is, well, pretty much a given. Unless its something you'd rather not share, I'd be interested in hearing how this is done.

YES - I FULLY believe that rolling is BAD! I coached BJJ for quite a while and for the last 5 years or so kept people from rolling - they all did much better and won...a lot. Boxing to me is slightly different just cause of the rules - now I don't believe sparring helps even for boxing but in boxing you almost have to due to all of the limitations. If I trained someone I still probably wouldn't let them spar even in boxing.

Since we're talking about 2 things here, I'll address each one.

BJJ: How can you test your locks, chokes, etc, without rolling?

Boxing: I'm confused....how is it something thats ok for boxing, but not BJJ? I understand that there're limitations, but when we think about it, even training empty hand self defense techniques, we still have to adhere to a set of rules. In other words, a tech. that may require me to poke the eyes, well, obviously I can't do that, so I simulate or raise the strike slightly and hit the forehead or cheek. The same with an armlock....I'm still limited as to what i can do, otherwise, I'll injure my partners arm.

C4-C5 Spinal fusion. I spent a year in the VA with them trying to figure it out. I actually took a few challenges and sparred a lot during the time before my surgery - I coached an MMA school in a very competitive region and guys would show up each night wanting to spar or roll with me so I had no choice - there was a lot of drama and I wasn't going to let some meathead looking to prove a point hurt any of my students. I would always say after a match that I didn't feel the full power in my right arm and just thought I had a shoulder cuff injury or something. But the pain got MUCH MUCH worse!

Ouch. Well, you're lucky to be walking and training.

Actually no. If it doesn't work for the smallest and weakest then we don't train it - seriously. We attack the body anatomically so the general nature fills in a lot of gaps for us.

But you still have to take height into consideration, no? My wife is 5'3. I wouldn't expect her to hit someone alot taller, in the face. I remember one Kenpo class that I was teaching. Short female, tall male were working together. She was having the hardest time reaching his face. She said, "I'm having a hard time. The strike is supposed to go to the face but I can't reach and because of that, the rest of the technique isnt working." I simply adjusted her target area. Sure, for the sake of the textbook tech., yes, the strikes have certain areas, but in reality, adjustments will need to be made. If someone moves, that movement could easuly throw off the rest of your tech, thus your need for adapting. I'm just having a hard time seeing how everything can be a 1 size fits all, for lack of better wording.

NEVER. At least not on purpose. When we train I have developed it so that the students don't even have to touch each other so it is pretty hard to do anyway. The only time something flies in is during the sumo-styled matches we do - in the moment things happen when you are doing dynamic partner drilling but nothing is EVER planned as unscripted.

How does a student get used to contact? How are they preparing for unscripted if its never trained? I recall a time, when I was doing a technique line in class. Actually it was more of a circle. 1 student in the middle, and I'd point to one on the outter rim to attack, with an attack of my choice. One day, I had called out an attack that I knew the student didn't have a preset tech. for. They just stood there, and said that they didn't know a tech for that attack. I asked them if they knew how to block, punch, kick, and move, to which they said yes. I said, good, then do it! I did this a few more times, but as I said earlier, because it was new to some, I slowed the pace down.

The point of me doing this, was to still have a controlled setting, but random attacks were coming. I dont know Jason, maybe this is something that I'd have to see live and in person, but I'm just not seeing how training can be done without contact and non scripted work.

 

[jasonbrinn]

I have a question regarding this, if you would be so kind as to answer it. You have said, several times, that training scripted drills without any sparring makes you a better fighter according to the research you have done. How did you test that? The MMA fighter that you mention is obvious, but you have mentioned that you do it for everyone so I would like to know how you have tested this theory. Thanks!

Fair enough question and the answer is simply that I haven't always thought that way. I came to believe what I do from training and sparring recording the results making adjustments and repeating. Once I started seeing the shifting pattern I started working specific tests against the theory using one traditionally trained group versus an almost identical group trained in different ways. After a decent time training I would have them spar and the results were beyond chance or normal variance.

By this time I had a few different training groups spread about. When I got new groups I would train them the "new" way from the start and when the groups came together for group training the "new" groups always did more favorably. After a little while longer I made the change completely.

Now, I say "Don't fight to train, train to fight" but that is for training. I have had plenty of students compete in plenty of different events. A very high percentage of those students have won their events. Also, I have had students go onto to train with other teachers over time and each of those students have done well above the norm in those endeavors becoming instructors in very short periods of time (usually about half or more of the norm).

I don't say these things for any other reason than they are facts - facts supporting the research. I don't have a school, don't run a seminar circuit teaching these things, don't charge for a set of DVDs or have an upcoming commercial outing based around these. My name in the MA world is mud thanks to a few unscrupulous individuals who effectively ruined any career I might have continuing to work within it professionally (I state all of this to convey I have no reason to lie or need anyone to believe me).

These are just the facts I found. I put them out cause it is what I know to be true. I hope it helps someone. I highly suggest testing the ideas yourself and see if it works for you. What would be the harm in doing a little honest research? If you are not willing to test things outside of your preferred preference then you will always find proof supporting your own preference, however, honestly seeking truth no matter where it might lead you could potentially take you to a new place - or just reconfirm your current position. To become different from what we are, we must have some awareness of what we are. If any style teaches you a method of fighting, then you might be able to fight according to the limit of that method, but that is not fighting. It’s not how much you have learned, but how much you have absorbed from what you have learned.

 

[jasonbrinn]

Well, I'll admit Jason, I'm a bit confused as to how this is even possible. I don't do MMA, but to me, it'd seem like sparring is, well, pretty much a given. Unless its something you'd rather not share, I'd be interested in hearing how this is done.

Through drilling what he would need to do when he did fight - not trying to be short here but it would be a lot to write down completely - maybe we could talk via phone or email?

BJJ: How can you test your locks, chokes, etc, without rolling?

The same way you do SD techs in a non-sparring format. And again, I am not against competing and fighting, only doing it for training.

Boxing: I'm confused....how is it something thats ok for boxing, but not BJJ? I understand that there're limitations, but when we think about it, even training empty hand self defense techniques, we still have to adhere to a set of rules. In other words, a tech. that may require me to poke the eyes, well, obviously I can't do that, so I simulate or raise the strike slightly and hit the forehead or cheek. The same with an armlock....I'm still limited as to what i can do, otherwise, I'll injure my partners arm.

Boxing is designed as a sport to create hits. A lot of boxing is based off of being hit. The rules and construction of the sport means you most likely can't fully train for it unless you practice that aspect.

But you still have to take height into consideration, no? My wife is 5'3. I wouldn't expect her to hit someone alot taller, in the face. I remember one Kenpo class that I was teaching. Short female, tall male were working together. She was having the hardest time reaching his face. She said, "I'm having a hard time. The strike is supposed to go to the face but I can't reach and because of that, the rest of the technique isnt working." I simply adjusted her target area. Sure, for the sake of the textbook tech., yes, the strikes have certain areas, but in reality, adjustments will need to be made. If someone moves, that movement could easuly throw off the rest of your tech, thus your need for adapting. I'm just having a hard time seeing how everything can be a 1 size fits all, for lack of better wording.

If he is going to attack her I bet he is going to get within range to strike

How does a student get used to contact? How are they preparing for unscripted if its never trained? I recall a time, when I was doing a technique line in class. Actually it was more of a circle. 1 student in the middle, and I'd point to one on the outter rim to attack, with an attack of my choice. One day, I had called out an attack that I knew the student didn't have a preset tech. for. They just stood there, and said that they didn't know a tech for that attack. I asked them if they knew how to block, punch, kick, and move, to which they said yes. I said, good, then do it! I did this a few more times, but as I said earlier, because it was new to some, I slowed the pace down.

The point of me doing this, was to still have a controlled setting, but random attacks were coming. I dont know Jason, maybe this is something that I'd have to see live and in person, but I'm just not seeing how training can be done without contact and non scripted work.

The drill you just described expounds my point. Everyone always says you can't train for ever situation in the street. We also say that the one situation you don't train for is probably going to be the one you are presented with right? Well, you asked the student can he punch, kick, block. In my system that is all we do so the student isn't searching for a reaction to do they only do what they know and since that is all they train they do IT very well and without hesitation.

 

[Tez3]

Greg Jackson's Gym
Jon "Bones" Jones

He trained with them - wasn't coached or taught by them.

Everyone's entitled to their opinions but that doesn't mean they will necessarily be insightful or correct.

The two fights back to back were the "sanctioned" events parameters not ours.

MMA is all about the show sir. The promoters are looking to create exciting fights. Plus when you know you're better trained than it isn't that much of a concern.

Sir? I don't think so!
We promote but we look to do it in such a way that the spectators watch good fights and the fighters are evenly matched. If someone suggests two fights in one night we say no, both from a promoters and a manager/coaches point of view, it simply isn't sensible or safe to have two potentially bruising fights back to back. We don't put novices up against the experienced guys either, you don't get entertaining fights nor safe ones from that.
"When you know you are better trained....." that has the sound of famous last words, however well you think you are trained, the better fighter on the night will win, which isn't always the 'better trained' one. I can't remember who said it, perhaps someone here will, but they said if you win all your fights you're not fighting the right people.

If your fighter trained with them ( sorry still don't know who either are) did he then excuse himself from sparring or did he join in? I think the latter is most likely don't you?
The thing is my opinion about sparring is not just my opinion, it's that of everyone here, which must in martial arts years add up to a couple of centuries at least worth of martial arts experience plus that of the top MMA people in the world, they all spar and roll. The most successful fighters spar and roll, if there was something better they would be doing it, they are professional fighters always looking for that edge over other fighters, if not sparring was that edge they would be doing it and the rest of us too, that we aren't speaks volumes. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

 

[jasonbrinn]

Sir? I don't think so!
We promote but we look to do it in such a way that the spectators watch good fights and the fighters are evenly matched. If someone suggests two fights in one night we say no, both from a promoters and a manager/coaches point of view, it simply isn't sensible or safe to have two potentially bruising fights back to back. We don't put novices up against the experienced guys either, you don't get entertaining fights nor safe ones from that.
"When you know you are better trained....." that has the sound of famous last words, however well you think you are trained, the better fighter on the night will win, which isn't always the 'better trained' one. I can't remember who said it, perhaps someone here will, but they said if you win all your fights you're not fighting the right people.

If your fighter trained with them ( sorry still don't know who either are) did he then excuse himself from sparring or did he join in? I think the latter is most likely don't you?
The thing is my opinion about sparring is not just my opinion, it's that of everyone here, which must in martial arts years add up to a couple of centuries at least worth of martial arts experience plus that of the top MMA people in the world, they all spar and roll. The most successful fighters spar and roll, if there was something better they would be doing it, they are professional fighters always looking for that edge over other fighters, if not sparring was that edge they would be doing it and the rest of us too, that we aren't speaks volumes. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Sorry about the sir thing.

You make the assumption that everyone does what they do cause they have tried everything else. Just take a look at your responses to me - you reject what I am saying based on popular belief. The only way you can conduct honest research is to test everything and let the data speak for itself.

 

[elder999]

1453087[/URL]]Greg Jackson's Gym
Jon "Bones" Jones

He trained with them - wasn't coached or taught by them.

Not quite waving the "BS" flag here, yet, but I've known Greg Jackson for nearly 18 years-his was the first school I visited in Albuquerque, NEW MEXICO (not "Arizona") when I moved here in '94, and it was just "Jackson's Gaidojutsu., He's just a phone call away-as in a personal cell phone call away, so I'd like to know the young heavyweight's name, please.

Or should I just ask him about you?

 

[Twin Fist]

now things have gotten intersting

 

[Tez3]

Sorry about the sir thing.

You make the assumption that everyone does what they do cause they have tried everything else. Just take a look at your responses to me - you reject what I am saying based on popular belief. The only way you can conduct honest research is to test everything and let the data speak for itself.

Ok so I post up saying that I've found the best way to train is to wear flippers, that I know this to be true, I've researched it extensively and it works. My un-named fighter has won all his fights training this way. I won't put up my research so you'll have to take what I say as being true. If I keep saying I'm right and you are wrong I will convince everyone eventually especially if I try and belittle people and make them seem ignorant and closeminded.


It seems I can't win with you, on one hand you say an opinion, mine, isn't correct and isn't insightful then when I point out it's not just my opinion but others too you accuse me of believing something because everyone else does.

If you posted your 'honest research' it would go a long way to showing us that you have a genuine theory, why should we take your seriously when you are asking us to take on faith what you say? If I were to take you at your word and stop our fighters sparring as you say, I would be putting their safety at risk. I have no solid evidence to prove that if they stopped sparring they would improve, every instinct I have as well as experience ( and that of people on here) tells me that not sparring will hamper them and therefore put them at risk, I'm not willing in the least to do this on just your say so I'm afraid. Provide proof and I'm willing to take this seriously, until then I'm sorry it's not my life and health I would be putting at risk in the cage but of people that trust me so despite your trying to make out I'm ignorant and closed minded, I will not be trying your 'method' of training.

Elder, please do call, I would like this nailed because what I'd hate to see is a young would be fighter following this training method without any proof it works. I would go so far as saying that as far as MMA is concerned this is potentionally dangerous because of insufficient preparation for a fight. Others can judge it's potential danger/risk in their own styles of a lack of sparring.

 

[jasonbrinn]

Ok so I post up saying that I've found the best way to train is to wear flippers, that I know this to be true, I've researched it extensively and it works. My un-named fighter has won all his fights training this way. I won't put up my research so you'll have to take what I say as being true. If I keep saying I'm right and you are wrong I will convince everyone eventually especially if I try and belittle people and make them seem ignorant and closeminded.


It seems I can't win with you, on one hand you say an opinion, mine, isn't correct and isn't insightful then when I point out it's not just my opinion but others too you accuse me of believing something because everyone else does.

If you posted your 'honest research' it would go a long way to showing us that you have a genuine theory, why should we take your seriously when you are asking us to take on faith what you say? If I were to take you at your word and stop our fighters sparring as you say, I would be putting their safety at risk. I have no solid evidence to prove that if they stopped sparring they would improve, every instinct I have as well as experience ( and that of people on here) tells me that not sparring will hamper them and therefore put them at risk, I'm not willing in the least to do this on just your say so I'm afraid. Provide proof and I'm willing to take this seriously, until then I'm sorry it's not my life and health I would be putting at risk in the cage but of people that trust me so despite your trying to make out I'm ignorant and closed minded, I will not be trying your 'method' of training.

Elder, please do call, I would like this nailed because what I'd hate to see is a young would be fighter following this training method without any proof it works. I would go so far as saying that as far as MMA is concerned this is potentionally dangerous because of insufficient preparation for a fight. Others can judge it's potential danger/risk in their own styles of a lack of sparring.

Here we go. It has been proven cause he went undefeated while training the method. He currently doesnt train under me anymore, no one does, so don't worry your pretty little head over it ok. I said I got injured recently and do not teach anymore.

 

[MJS]

Through drilling what he would need to do when he did fight - not trying to be short here but it would be a lot to write down completely - maybe we could talk via phone or email?

Yeah, we may have to go that route, as I'm still not following you.

The same way you do SD techs in a non-sparring format. And again, I am not against competing and fighting, only doing it for training.

I think we're on the same page with your first statement. However, after I drill them in the controlled, compliant, scripted setting, I move to the random, unscripted setting. Just like someone who does BJJ, and learns a new choke....works it slow, then more pressure, then rolling.

Boxing is designed as a sport to create hits. A lot of boxing is based off of being hit. The rules and construction of the sport means you most likely can't fully train for it unless you practice that aspect.

Well, sure, IMO, alot of things in the arts, require being hit.

If he is going to attack her I bet he is going to get within range to strike

Of course, but if the guy is 6'3, and she's 5'3, hitting his face, eyes, throat, etc, would be foolish. She'd no doubt, have to adapt, and change her strikes to other targets within her reach.

The drill you just described expounds my point. Everyone always says you can't train for ever situation in the street. We also say that the one situation you don't train for is probably going to be the one you are presented with right? Well, you asked the student can he punch, kick, block. In my system that is all we do so the student isn't searching for a reaction to do they only do what they know and since that is all they train they do IT very well and without hesitation.

But again, that was unscripted, to a point. Yes, they knew the attack, just not a preset defense. They had to make that up on the fly. The next step, following that process, would be totally unscripted.....they're in the middle, I point to someone and tell them to attack any way they want. Granted, in the beginning, this can still be done at a 1/4-1/2 speed pace.

 

[jasonbrinn]

Not quite waving the "BS" flag here, yet, but I've known Greg Jackson for nearly 18 years-his was the first school I visited in Albuquerque, NEW MEXICO (not "Arizona") when I moved here in '94, and it was just "Jackson's Gaidojutsu., He's just a phone call away-as in a personal cell phone call away, so I'd like to know the young heavyweight's name, please.

Or should I just ask him about you?

Go ahead if you like - I DON'T LIE. They have a program where you can literally live in at the gym which is what my guy did. Sorry I put in AZ I just had a brain freeze or something - i helped send him there including making all the calls to Greg's business partner (who is the only person I ever talked with - not Greg) so I do know where it is.

If you want the kid's name then you are going to have to call me to get it (personal information redacted per Rules 1.5) - he doesn't deserve to have his name tied to crap like this
Who cares people - believe me or don't - test it or don't. But whatever you do don't make judgements about people you don't know cause, at least with me, you might just be wrong.


note** it took me a second to grab the records but Greg's partner's name was/is Ricky Kottenstette. The cost of the dorm then was $500/month and my guy went out there in 10/21/09. PLEASE don't use my guys name here if you figure it out! This is about my ideas not my guy - i only used his experience to back up the data and trials.

 

[Tez3]

Here we go. It has been proven cause he went undefeated while training the method. He currently doesnt train under me anymore, no one does, so don't worry your pretty little head over it ok. I said I got injured recently and do not teach anymore.

Well, well, well. gloves off now I take it?


Dear boy, the thing is this...you posted up your method, you stated it worked and you stated it without proof and you are surprised, shocked and hurt we didn't immediately go 'cor, that's amazing mate, we will do what you say and have winners in no time'. So?

We shot you down, there's two things you can do, you can whinge like buggery that you are a misunderstood genius unappreciated in your own lunchtime or you can shrug, re-read your posts and say, well yeah perhaps they have a point about wanting proof. And the thing is....I don't really care which you do, I don't know who you are and I haven't made a judgement about you, mostly because I can't be bother to waste my time but also because I'm judging what you SAY because you posted it up for that reason, for our evaluation...only there is nothing to evaluate because you won't post any proof, no names, no dates, no scientific data, nowt. So no I won't worry my pretty little head ( I usually save that for Glasgow kisses) about you, I didn't before so can't see a reason to start now.

 

[jasonbrinn]

Well, well, well. gloves off now I take it?


Dear boy, the thing is this...you posted up your method, you stated it worked and you stated it without proof and you are surprised, shocked and hurt we didn't immediately go 'cor, that's amazing mate, we will do what you say and have winners in no time'. So?

We shot you down, there's two things you can do, you can whinge like buggery that you are a misunderstood genius unappreciated in your own lunchtime or you can shrug, re-read your posts and say, well yeah perhaps they have a point about wanting proof. And the thing is....I don't really care which you do, I don't know how you are and I haven't made a judgement about you, mostly because I can't be bother to waste my time but also because I'm judging what you SAY because you posted it up for that reason, for our evaluation...only there is nothing to evaluate because you won't post any proof, no names, no dates, no scientific data, nowt. So no I won't worry my pretty little head ( I usually save that for Glasgow kisses) about you, I didn't before so can't see a reason to start now.

I made a mistake posting my ideas. I won't do it again. Sorry everyone. Sorry if my ideas irritated anyone. Thank you to each and everyone who participated for your time and consideration.

 

[Tez3]

I made a mistake posting my ideas. I won't do it again. Sorry everyone. Sorry if my ideas irritated anyone. Thank you to each and everyone who participated for your time and consideration.

Actually you didn't irritate anyone, what you did was to post your theory. We were interested in it, asked questions etc but you wouldn't give us anything in the way of proof. You said it worked, we couldn't see how but you just kept saying, it works, it works but we can't take something like that on faith I'm afraid. I'm not putting fighter's health etc at risk because of an unproven, to us, theory. If you can't see that and think you've been hard done by, you are wrong.

 

[The Last Legionary]

he doesn't deserve to have his name tied to crap like this

Then maybe you should stop bringing him up?

 

[elder999]

Go ahead if you like - I DON'T LIE. They have a program where you can literally live in at the gym which is what my guy did. Sorry I put in AZ I just had a brain freeze or something - i helped send him there including making all the calls to Greg's business partner (who is the only person I ever talked with - not Greg) so I do know where it is.

If you want the kid's name then you are going to have to call me to get it (919-559-2922 is my personal cell and I am available now or whenever) - he doesn't deserve to have his name tied to crap like this
Who cares people - believe me or don't - test it or don't. But whatever you do don't make judgements about people you don't know cause, at least with me, you might just be wrong.


note** it took me a second to grab the records but Greg's partner's name was/is Ricky Kottenstette. The cost of the dorm then was $500/month and my guy went out there in 10/21/09. PLEASE don't use my guys name here if you figure it out! This is about my ideas not my guy - i only used his experience to back up the data and trials.

Greg Jackson doesn't care about money. The four dorm rooms above the gym have almost always been free, not $500/month-they started charging that for staying and training in 2010. His classes are downright cheap too, by most standards-part of the reason why the mat is always so crowded. He doesn't even take a percentage of his fighter's purses, as a rule-though most of them "make a donation to Mrs. Jackson." :lol:

EDIT: Here's an article on Jackson's MMA, from November of 2009.

A notable quote from the article:

Over the top of the gym is a dormitory for fighters thatis typically at double capacity. It is spartan but the rent​

can’t be beat, as Jackson charges nothing to stay there.

 

[jks9199]

Ladies and gentlemen,

Let's get back to the topic, and keep it polite & friendly.

Jim Sheeran
jks9199
MT Asst. Administrator

 

[elder999]

Well, alrighty then.

I'll reserve my answer to the whole "what is sparring," thing for now-as for "is it worth doing?" I'd answer,Yes, if done with proper coaching and supervision-but that shouldn't be a surprise.

I have a question for Jason, though-Jason, how is your "scripted sparring" any different from ippon kumite, sanbon kumite and kiso kumite?

Or even gohon kumite?

 

[Tez3]

Just a minor point, all fighters records are a matter of public record, they are in the public domain in other words so there's no 'secrets'. They will be on a list on a website somewhere.

I've said all I can about sparring, the best I've got back from Jason is a patronising, spiteful post so really I can't add anything more.

 

[elder999]

I've said all I can about sparring, the best I've got back from Jason is a patronising, spiteful post so really I can't add anything more.

Looks like he got scared, or decided to take his little red wagon somewhere else to play........

........my guess is, we'll never hear from him again.

:lfao: